University  of  California  •  Berkeley 


46TH  CONGRESS,  )  HOUSE  OF  REPRESENTATIVES.    /  Mis.  Doc. 
2d  Session.        t  \     No.  38. 


TESTIMONY 

IN   RELATION  TO 


THE  UTE  INDIAN  OUTBREAK, 

TAKEN  BY 

THE  COMMITTEE  ON  INDIAN  AFFAIRS 

Of  the  House  of  Representatives. 


•        MAY  1 , 1880.— Ordered  to  be  printed. 


WASHINGTON,  January  15, 1880. 

CHARLES  ADAMS  sworn  and  examined. 
By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  State  your  occupation  and  residence. — Answer.  I  am  a 
special  agent  of  the  Post-Office  Department,  stationed  at  present  in 
Colorado. 

Q.  This  committee  has  in  charge  the  investigation  of  the  recent  Ute 
outbreak,  and  desires  to  know  all  that  you  know  in  regard  to  it.  You 
will  therefore  please  go  on  and  state  your  opportunities  for  knowing, 
what  you  do  know,  and  all  you  know,  in  regard  to  it. — A.  Some  time 
in  September  last,  I  think  about  the  24th,  I  was  asked  by  Governor  Pit- 
kin,  of  our  State,  while  I  was  in  Denver,  to  come  to  his  office  and  meet 
Secretary  Schurz,  who  at  that  time  was  in  Denver.  I  came  to  his  office. 
While  there  the  question  came  up  as  to  what  could  be  done  with  the 
White  River  Indians,  against  whom  a  detachment  of  troops  was  then 
marching,  and  Governor  Pitkin  suggested  that  if  I  could  go  there  in 
advance  of  the  troops,  probably  the  difficulty,  if  any  difficulty  there 
should  be,  might  be  avoided.  The  Secretary  asked  me  whether  I  could 
go.  I  told  him  I  belonged  to  the  Post-Office  Department  and  could  not 
go  unless  so  directed  by  the  Postmaster-General.  He  was  then  about  writ 
ing  a  telegram  to  the  Postmaster-General,  when  it  struck  me  that  I  had 
to  go  to  New  Mexico  about  that  time  to  attend  some  cases  in  court,  and 
I  could  not  go  any  way  without  detriment  to  the  postal  service  5  but  I 
agreed  that  as  soon  as  I  could  come  back  from  New  Mexico  I  would  go, 
and  do  my  best  with  the  Indians  and  try  to  settle  the  matter  amicably. 
It  seems  there  was  some  charge  that  the  Indians  had  burnt  some 
grass  and  timber,  and  also  houses,  on  Bear  River,  outside  of  their 
reservation,  and  that  the  soldiers  were  sent  down  to  arrest  the  per 
petrators.  I  went  to  New  Mexico,  and  returned  to  Colorado  on  the  7th 
of  October,  and  then  first  heard  of  the  fight  with  the  soldiers  and  also 
of  the  massacre  of  the  agent.  On  the  14th  of  October  I  received  a  tel 
egram  from  the  Secretary,  and  also  a  telegram  from  my  department, 


Z  UTE   INDIAN   OUTBREAK, 

the  latter  detailing  me  temporarily  to  the  Interior  Department,  and  the 
former  giving  me  instructions  how  to  proceed.  I  was  to  go  to  the 
Southern  Agency,  see  Ouray,  the  chief  of  the  Utes,  put  myself  in  com 
munication  with  the  hostile  Utes,  and  try  and  obtain  the  release  of  the 
women  and  children  who  were  tben  supposed  to  be  in  their  camp.  Noth 
ing  definite  was  known  whether  they  were  alive  or  dead,  but  it  was  sup 
posed  that  they  were  alive  and  captives  in  the  camp.  If  that  was  agreed 
to  without  any  conditions,  I  was  to  ascertain  whether  the  Indians  wanted 
to  prolong  the  fight,  or  whether  they  would  be  willing  to  give  up  the 
principal  instigators  of  the  massacre  and  resume  their  relations  with 
tho  government.  I  started,  taking  two  or  three  men  with  me,  and  also 
some  Indian  chiefs,  and  went  to  the  hostile  camp.  I  think  I  arrived 
there  on  the  21st  of  October,  about  ten  o'clock  in  the  morning,  at  the 
small  camp;  there  were  only  about  ten  or  fifteen  lodges  of  Indians 
there.  A  boy  that  we  met  about  a  quarter  of  a  mile  away  told  me  that 
the  prisoners  wero  scattered — that  is,  one  woman  was  in  one  house  at 
the  lower  end  of  the  camp;  another  one  in  the  center,  and  another 
above.  I  went  to  the  lower  end  first,  and  by  inquiring  I  saw  Miss 
Meeker  (this  young  lady  here)  peeping  out  of  a  tent.  I  dismounted 
and  asked  her  who  she  was,  not  knowing  her  personally  at  that  time, 
and  told  her  that  I  had  come  to  release  her,  and  asked  her  where  her 
mother  and  the  other  women  were.  I  then  mounted  again  and  told 
Miss  Meeker  to  get  ready  to  leave,  if  possible,  that  afternoon.  I  went 
up  to  the  upper  camp  and  found  all  the  Indian  men,  probably  about 
thirty  or  forty,  in  a  tent  together  talking  very  boisterously.  I  went  in 
side.  I  knew  them  all  personally,  but  none  of  them  would  speak  to  me. 
I  found  at  once  that  there  was  a  certain  hostility  amongst  them  towards 
ine,  but  was  asked  to  wait,  that  they  had  sent  for  the  principal  chief, 
Douglas,  that  he  would  come  very  soon,  and  then  we  could  talk  the 
matter  over. 

I  inquired  for  the  other  captives,  and  was  told  that  they  were  hidden 
in  the  brush  about  200  yards  distant  down  a  steep  bank  towards  the 
river.  I  waited  for  about  an  hour,  when  Chief  Douglas,  with  probably 
five  or  six  other  chiefs,  rode  up.  He  informed  me  that  the  soldiers  were 
advancing  from  White  River,  and  that  the  whites  were  hostile,  and  he 
did  not  see  why  he  should  give  me  those  women.  He  asked  whether  I 
had  any  conditions  to  offer  for  the  release  of  them.  I  told  him  I  had 
not;  but  after  he  had  given  them  up  to  me  I  might  then  have  some 
thing  further  to  say.  He  drew  a  map  on  the  ground,  saying  that  the 
soldiers  were  building  a  wagon  road  and  advancing  rapidly  towards 
Grand  Kiver.  I  told  him  that,  from  my  understanding  of  the  instructions 
from  Washington,  I  had  supposed  that  at  the  same  time  that  I  entered 
their  country  the  commanding  officer  of  the  soldiers  had  also  received 
orders  not  to  advance  any  farther  from  where  he  might  be  at  the  time, 
and  if  they  had  come  there  building  a  wagon  road  before  I  had  left 
Ouray's  house,  I  thought  they  would  stay  there  and  not  come  any  far 
ther.  He  then  asked  me, il  Will  you  go  and  see  them,  and  if  they  are 
coming  farther,  stop  them  P  I  said,  "  I  will  go  to  their  camp  after  you 
give  up  the  women."  He  then  invited  me  inside,  into  the  lodge  where 
all  the  others  were  talking,  and  I  believe  they  talked  there  until  about 
four  or  five  o'clock  in  the  afternoon,  some  in  a  very  hostile  manner, 
others  in  a  peaceful  manner.  One  of  the  Indians  that  I  had  taken  with 
me  could  speak  Spanish,  and  through  him,  as  interpreter,  I  had  several 
remarks  to  make  to  them,  but  always  to  the  effect  that  they  must  first 
give  up  these  prisoners  without  conditions,  and  then  I  might  perhaps  be 
able  to  do  something  for  them.  They  said  that  they  had  not  been  will- 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  3 

ing  to  go  into  this  fight ;  that  the  fight  had  been  forced  upon  them;  that 
the  soldiers  had  come  there  without  any  cause  whatever.  I  paid  very 
little  attention  to  their  excuses  at  that  time,  but  said  that  if  these 
women  were  started  on  their  way  home  I  would  then  go  to  the  main 
camp  (this  being  only  a  small  one)  and  get  all  the  chiefs  together  and 
talk  it  over.  So  finally  they  agreed  to  give  them  to  me.  They  said 
"We  don't  want  to  have  anything  more  to  do  with  the  government.  All 
that  we  want  is  that  the  soldiers  shall  not  pursue  us  in  our  own  coun 
try.  We  can  live  on  game,  as  we  have  lived  before,  and  do  not  desire 
to  have  anything  to  do  with  the  government,  but  we  give  these  women 
to  you,  and  if  you  can  do  anything  for  us  afterwards,  all  right.'7  So  I 
immediately  had  the  old  lady  Mrs.  Meeker,  and  Mrs.  Price  brought 
up  out  of  the  brush.  I  then  said  that  I  wished  those  three  women  to 
come  together  that  night,  Miss  Josephine  having  been  kept  in  another 
part  of  the  camp,  and  that  they  should  start  the  first  thing  in  the 
morning,  The  Indians  promised  it,  and  I  made  arrangements  for  sad 
dles  and  animals  for  next  morning,  and  then  I  immediately  saddled  up 
and  went  with  Douglas  down  to  the  main  camp.  Before  that,  when  I 
first  met  Miss  Meeker,  I  asked  her  the  question,  "  Do  you  know  who  of 
these  Indians  killed  your  father  and  the  other  employes."  She  answered, 
No,  she  could  not  tell.  I  then  asked  her  how  the  Indians  had  treated 
her.  She  said,  u  Well,  better  than  she  had  expected."  I  asked  her 
whether  they  had  offered  her  any  indignity  to  her  person.  She  made 
the  off-hand  remark,  "  O,  no,  Mr.  Adams,  nothing  of  that  kind."  Then 
later  on,  when  I  met  Mrs.  Meeker,  she  asked  me  whether  their  release 
would  make  peace  with  the  government  for  the  Indians.  I  said,  "  No." 
Mrs.  Meeker  was  very  willing  to  talk  of  who  had  abused  her,  but  Chief 
Douglas  and  other  chiefs  stood  around  her  so  close  that  with  her  I  could 
not  possibly  speak  about  the  murders,  because  if  they  had  thought  that 
I  was  making  any  investigation  there  I  considered  my  life  and  others 
in  danger  too.  But  I  got  Mrs.  Price,  the  other  captive,  accidentally 
alone,  and  I  asked  her  the  question  whether  any  indignity  had  been 
offered  to  her.  She  said,  "  No."  I  thereupon  wrote  the  dispatch  to  the 
Secretary  that  the  women  had  been  given  up  and  no  indignities  had 
been  offered  to  them.  My  horse  was  waiting  at  the  time.  This  dis 
patch  was  given  to  an  Indian  who  was  to  carry  it  back  to  Quran's  house, 
probably  120  miles  distant ;  from  there  to  Lake  City ;  from  there  to  Del 
Norte — probably  four  or  five  hundred  miles  altogether.  I  then  went  on 
with  the  Indians  to  the  main  camp,  and  reached  there  about  11  o'clock 
that  night.  All  the  chiefs  had  assembled.  One  had  gone  ahead  and 
told  them  that  I  was  coming.  I  might  here  say  that  a  gentleman  whom 
I  met  accidentally  on  the  train,  and  who  asked  me  to  allow  him  to  go 
along  with  me,  Count  Donhoff,  secretary  of  the  German  legation  in 
Washington,  accompanied  me  on  the  trip.  The  Indians  were  all  in 
the  tent  of  a  chief  called  Sawawick,  and  in  this  tent  we  sat  up  all 
night,  and  they  told  me  their  story,  and  asked  me  to  report  that 
story  to  Washington.)  Chief  Jack  was  the  spokesman  that  night. 
He  said  that  he  had  tried  his  utmost  to  avert  the  fight,  but  that  the 
agent  had  told  him  that  the  soldiers  were  bringing  a  wagon-load  of 
handcuffs  and  shackles  and  ropes,  and  that  some  of  them  would  be 
hung,  and  others  taken  out  as  prisoners;  that  they  had  also  gone  to 
meet  Major  Thornburgh,  and  asked  him  to  keep  his  troops  outside,  as 
their  women  and  children  would  become  frightened  if  they  all  came 
there,  and  asked  him  with  some  of  his  men  to  come  to  the  agency;  and 
on  refusing  that,  they  proposed  that  he  should  com£  about  half  way 
between  where  he  was  then  encamped  and  the  agency,  and  that  they 


4  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

would  go  back  ajid  tell  their  agent  and  some  of  their  chiefs  to  come  and 
meet  him,  and  talk  the  matter  over,  and  see  what  he  actually  wanted ; 
that  instead  of  his  doing  as  he  had  promised,  they  got  notice  in  their 
camp  that  he  Was  advancing  with  his  whole  command  across  the  place 
where  he  had  promised  to  meet  them  alone ;  that  thereupon  they  withdrew 
to  the  side  of  the  road,  to  see  that  only  the  wagons  were  going  on,  and 
while  off  the  road  on  a  small  trail,  the  first  they  saw  was  the  soldiers 
also  advancing  on  this  trail,  off  the  main  road;  and  that  the  soldiers 
evidently  came  to  fight  them,  because  they  were  deployed  in  skirmish 
line,  and  that  then  the  soldiers  commenced  firing  on  them.  That  was 
their  story  in  camp.  They  said  also  that  then,  after  some  of  their  people 
had  been  killed,  some  of  the  young  men  rushed  back  to  the  camp  and 
notified  the  others  that  the  soldiers  were  killing  their  people,  and  that 
thereupon  they  had  killed  Mr.  Meeker  and  the  employes,  laying  all  the 
blame  on  Mr.  Meeker.  I  asked  them  the  question  why  they  had  killed 
the  freighters  on  the  road,  but  they  declined  to  answer.  I  found  that 
it  was  better  for  me  simply  to  listen  to  their  story — to  put  no  questions 
to  them  at  that  time.  I  immediately  saw  that  when  I  went  into  the 
questioning  about  these. freighters,  they  did  not  want  to  answer.  About 
ten  o'clock  next  morning  we  saddled  up,  and  rode  up  Grand  Kiver 
towards  White  River.  I  had  asked  for  an  escort  of  four  or  five  Indians 
to  go  with  me,  inasmuch  as  some  of  the  Indians  were  ahead  on  the  road, 
and  those,  with  two  of  the  chiefs  that  I  had  brought  with  me  from  the 
Southern  Agency,  I  thought  sufficient.  But  when  I  started  out  the 
crowd  kept  increasing  until  there  were  about  twenty-five  with  me,  and 
they  kept  so  very  close  around  me,  and  from  their  whole  movements  I 
saw  that  I  was  more  of  a  prisoner  than  anything  else.  About  noon  that 
day.  just  after  crossing  Grand  River,  away  ahead,  I  saw  an  Indian 
coming  towards  us  at  a  very  fast  gait.  Some  of  the  Indians  also  saw 
him  at  the  same  time,  and  they  galloped  up  ahead  very  fast,  I  then  saw 
several  loose  ponies  with  saddles  on,  coming  over  the  trail  following  the 
first  one,  and  pretty  soon  two  more  Indians,  mounted.  I  rode  up  leisurely. 
When  I  came  up  I  found  them  gesticulating  and  talking  very  loudly,  and 
from  some  words  that  I  understood  in  Ute,  and  the  motions  they  made,  I 
saw  at  once  that  they  had  had  another  fight,  and  it  took  some  ten  min 
utes  before  even  the  chief  that  came  with  me,  Sapovanero,  would 
speak  to  me.  -All  of  them  looked  very  morose  and  hostile;  but  finally, 
after  talking  among  themselves  awhile,  Sapovanero  turned  around  and 
said,  "It  is  all  right;  the  Indians  and  the  soldiers  have  had  another 
fight,  and  two  Indians  were  killed  and  two  white  men  ;  so  it  is  all  right." 
He  then  explained  that  there  had  been  a  party  of  about  twelve  Indians 
some  twenty-five  miles  from  White  River,  on  the  high  peaks  of  the 
mountains,  watching  the  soldiers,  and  they  had  seen  a  party  of  seven 
come  out  from  the  camp,  who  had  unsaddled  and  stopped  for  lunch,  prob 
ably  within  200  yards  from  the  camp  of  the  Indians  (which  was  on  a  little 
creek),  where  four  or  five  of  them  were,  while  the  rest  were  up  on  the 
mountains.  This  party  of  seven,  partly  soldiers,  partly  citizens,  were 
considered  by  them  as  being  on  a  hunt,  and  they  did  not  think  any  harm 
of  it,  but  all  at  once  two  of  the  party  started  one  way  and  five  in  an 
other  direction,  and  one  of  the  men  came  very  close  to  the  Indians  and 
shot  at  a  deer,  which  are  very  plenty  in  that  neighborhood.  One  of  the  In 
dians  went  up  on  a  rock  to  see  if  the  deer  had  been  hit,  and  while  doing 
so,  the  white  men  discovered  him  and  killed  him.  Then  the  other  four 
immediately  jumped  for  their  arms  and  killed  the  white  man  as  well  as 
the  officer  with  him,  and  then  all  the  other  Indians  from  the  mountains 
joined  them  also  and  they  went  in  pursuit  of  the  other  five  white  men,  in- 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  5 

tending  to  kill  them.  They  corraled  them  in  the  ravine  until  night,  and 
during  that  time  another  Indian  was  killed.  That  night  they  went  back 
to  the  camp  at  White  River.  That  was  their  story  of  that  affair,  in 
which  Lieutenant  Weir  and  Scout  Hume  were  killed.  That  night  we 
camped  on  Grand  River.  The  next  morning  we  started  on.  About  noon 
we  met  two  or  three  other  Indians,  who  told  the  same  story.  They  also 
had  been  in  that  fight,  Very  soon  afterwards,  about  the  place  where 
this  fight  had  occurred,  one  of  the  Indians  told  me  that  he  had  seen  the 
head  of  a  horse  some  two  or  three  miles  in  advance  on  the  road,  and  he 
did  not  want  to  go  any  farther,  and  he  asked  me  to  go  on  alone.  So  we 
took  our  handkerchiefs  out  and  tied  them  to  poles,  and  Count  Douhoff 
and  myself  went  ahead  to  this  place  where  the  Indian  had  seen  the 
horse,  and  found  two  or  three  loose  horses  only.  I  then  said  to  Count 
Donhoff,  "  I  will  go  on  slowly,  and  you  ride  back  and  tell  the  Indians 
to  come;  that  there  are  no  soldiers  here,"  and  he  did  so.  I  rode  ahead 
quietly,  and  just  as  the  count  and  these  Indians,  some  twenty-five  in 
number,  were  riding  pretty  fast  to  overtake  me,  I  saw  the  soldiers  ahead ; 
in  fact  they  were  all  around  us  at  once.  My  Indians  also  saw  them  in  a 
moment  and  ran  off  to  the  mountains,  leaving  me  and  Count  Donhoff 
alone.  We  kept  on,  but  the  soldiers  did  not  seem  to  recognize  us;  at 
any  rate  they  kept  skirmishers  all  deployed,  and  kept  coming  closer  and! 
closer  around  us,  and  some  of  them  were  even  dismounted  and  were 
ready  to  fire,  but  fortunately  an  officer,  who  was  a  little  ahead,  saw 
me  and  came  and  conducted  me  to  the  commanding  officer.  I  then 
learned  that  Colonel  Sumner  had  come  out  to  find  the  bodies  of  those 
men  who  had  been  killed  or  that  were  supposed  to  have  been  killed  the 
day  before,  and  I  told  him  I  thought  I  could  get  the  Indians  to  find 
them  for  him,  inasmuch  as  they  had  talked  the  affair  over  very  fully, 
although  I  had  none  of  the  Indians  with  me  that  had  been  in  that  fight. 
There  were  some  threatening  remarks  made  by  some  of  the  scouts  to 
the  affect  that  it  would  be  a  good  thing  to  shoot  us,  but  nothing  of  that 
kind  happened.  I  went  back  to  get  the  Indians  to  come;  Colonel  Sum 
ner  promising  to  take  in  his  lines.  He  said  he  had  been  informed 
that  there  were  more  than  300  Indians  in  front.  I  told  him  that  there 
were  not  more  than  twenty  five,  and  that  they  would  come  with  me. 
He  did  not  seem  to  believe  me  at  first,  and  from  what  afterwards  hap 
pened  I  did  not  think  he  believed  me  anyway.  I  went  back  and  sig 
naled  to  the  Indians  on  the  mountain-side  to  come  down,  and  one  of, 
them,  the  chief  Sapovanero,  came  down  and  met  me  on  the  road,  we  two 
all  alone.  I  told  him  that  the  soldiers  had  simply  come  to  find  the 
bodies,  and  that  if  he  would  call  the  others  down  from  the  mountain  they 
could  find  the  bodies  and  we  could  all  go  to  the  camp  at  White  Eiver. 
While  we  were  talking,  I  saw  another  company  come  right  behind  us,; 
cutting  us  off  from  the  road  and  from  the  other  Indians  on  the  mount 
ain.  The  Indians  on  the  mountain  hallooed  to  the  chief  who  was  with 
me  and  he  looked'arouud  and  saw  the  soldiers,  and  at  once  accused  me' 
of  betraying  him.  He  hadn't  time  to  get  his  gun  out  or  I  think  he  would 
have  fired  at  me.  He  ran  right  back  and  almost  through  the  soldiers 
and  up  to  the  mountain.  I  went  after  him  and  told  him  that  if  there 
was  any  treachery  it  was  not  on  my  part,  and  that  if  such  was  the  case 
I  would  rather  stay  with  the  Indians  than  the  soldiers.  Some  of  the 
soldiers  came  round  and  I  rode  up  to  one  of  the  officers,  a  sergeant,  and 
asked  him  what  he  meant.  He  said  he  had  not  heard  any  orders  to  the 
contrary.  I  told  him  I  had  heard  the  bugle  very  plainly,  sounding  the  re 
treat  to  the  main  column.  I  rode  back  to  Colonel  Sumner,  who  was  fol 
lowing  me  closely  with  his  whole  column,  and  asked  what  this  meant. 


6  UTE   INDIAN   OUTBREAK. 

He  said  there  was  a  misunderstanding,  that  there  was  one  company  that 
had  not  heard  the  signal.  The  soldiers  were  then  recalled.  I  told  Colonel 
Simmer  that  the  Indians  were  under  the  impression  that  I  had  used 
treachery,  and  I  said  that  they  must  be  disabused  of  that  idea,  and 
asked  him  to  send  an  officer  and  a  trumpeter  with  me  to  meet  them, 
which  he  agreed  to  do.  The  Indians  from  the  mountains  were  circling 
round,  and  they  met  me  again  about  three  miles  off,  standing  in  line.  I 
rode  up  and  explained  everything,  and  in  a  few  minutes  they  found 
the  bodies.  The  bodies  were  buried,  but  the  Indians  would  not  come 
to  White  River. 

By  Mr.  HASKELL  : 

Q.  Where  was  this  place? — A.  About  twenty-five  miles  south  from 
White  River  on  the  divide  between  Grand  River  and  White  River. 

Q.  How  far  from  those  camps  where  you  found  the  captives? — A. 
Probably  60,  or  perhaps  80  miles. 

Q.  Which  direction  from  the  point  where  the  soldiers  met  you  were 
the  camps? — A.  South-southeast.  The  large  camp,  the  main  "camp  of 
the  Indians,  was  on  Grand  River  at  the  mouth  of  Roon  River. 

Q.  A  hundred  miles  south  of  White  River  Agency  f — A.  Yes,  sir  ; 
and  the  camp  where  the  women  were  was  about  twenty  miles  farther, 
on  a  small  tributary  of  Plateau  Creek.  Next  morning  I  saw  General 
Merritt  and  asked  him  what  his  instructions  were.  Be  said  he  had  been 
advancing  and  had  built  this  road  in  order  to  follow  the  Indians  up 
south,  when  he  received  orders  to  stop  until  I  should  get  through  with 
my  mission,  and  that  he  had  come  back  to  White  River  and  made  his 
camp  there,  and  was  waiting  for  further  orders  ;  and  he  intimated  that 
his  remaining  or  advancing  depended  in  a  measure  upon  my  success 
amongst  the  Indians.  I  told  him  what  I  had  accomplished,  and  wrote 
quite  a  lengthy  telegram  to  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  and  showed  it 
to  General  Merritt.  He  read  it  and  said  that  under  such  circumstances 
he  would  have  to  stay  where  he  was.  Before  I  entered  the  camp  of 
the  soldiers,  the  Indians  made  me  promise  that  I  would  come  back  that 
way  and  inform  them  of  what  the  troops  were  going  to  do.  I  had  to 
make  the  promise,  and  I  told  them  I  would  stay  one  day  in  the  camp  of 
the  soldiers,  and  would  be  back  the  next  day  at  noon ;  so  General  Mer 
ritt  and  myself  agreed  that  he  would  telegraph  to  Washington  for  further 
instructions,  stating  the  success  that  I  had  had,  and  that  I  should  go 
back  and  see  that  these  women  were  actually  sent  off.  as  it  might  be  pos 
sible  that  the  Indians  had  kept  them,  because  they  had  insisted  that  if 
I  would  go  first  to  White  River  and  stop  the  soldiers  they  would  then 
give  me  the  women  and  let  me  go  back  with  them,  but  I  had  always 
rejected  that  proposition,  so  I  thought  it  possible  that  they  might  not 
have  kept  their  promise*.  At  any  rate,  General  Merritt  promised  that 
he  would  give  ample  time  for  me  to  get  back,  which  would  take  five 
or  six  days — he  said  that  he  would  have  to  wait  that  length  of  time  any 
way,  in  order  to  receive  instructions  from  his  superiors,  and  that  then 
the  War  Department,  or  the  War  Department  and  the  Interior  Depart 
ment  together,  must  decide.  I  had  sent  dispatches  and  so  had  he.  I 
went  back  and  met  the  Indians  at  the  same  place;  in  fact,  before  that 
they  had  been  on  the  mountains  watching  to  see  whether  I  would  come 
back  or  not.  I  went  back  with  them  to  their  camp.  When  I  arrived 
there,  I  found  two  white  men  who  told  me  that  they  were  employes  of 
the  LJinta  Agency,  and  that  they  had  been  sent  there  by  the  agent  in 
tltah  to  try  to  get  these  women  released.  One  of  them  could  speak  Ute, 
and  their  whole  actions  in  the  camp  made  me  think  that  they  were  not 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  7 

what  they  pretended  to  be,  and   I  have  since  learned  that  they  were 
Mormons  who  came  there  to  influence  the  Indians. 

Q.  Did  you  learn  the  names  of  those  parties? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  they  told 
ine  their  names  at  that  time.  One  of  them  I  have  forgotten;  the  other 
I  think  was  Dilmar.  They  asked  me  to  give  them  a  letter  to  General 
Merritt,  inasmuch  as  they  did  not  want  to  go  back  across  the  country  the 
same  way  they  came,  and  I  did  give  them  a  letter  just  stating  that  they 
represented  themselves  so  and  so.  They  afterwards  did  go  to  General 
Merritt's  camp,  and  all  I  know  further  about  them  is  from  dispatches 
that  I  have  read  stating  that  they  told  General  Merritt  that  they  had 
represented  themselves  to  the  Utes  as  Mormons,  so  as  to  avoid  being 
killed  or  interfered  with. 

By  Mr.  WADDILL  : 

Q.  Do  you  say  they  afterwards  turned  out  be  Mormons  ?— A.  No ;  I 
do  not  say  that;  but  I  say  that  they  represented  themselves  to  be  Mor 
mons,  and  I  rather  think  they  were  Mormons.  Chief  Ouray  told  me  that 
they  were  Mormons  sent  there  to  talk  to  the  Indians. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  For  what  purpose  ?— A.  From  Ouray 's  statement,  for  the  purpose 
of  keeping  the  Indians  in  hostilitv  to  the  government. 
By  Mr.  WADDILL  : 

Q.  But  you  say  they  represented  themselves  as  having  been  sent  by 
the  agent  at  Uiuta  I—A.  To  me  they  did. 
By  Mr.  POEHLER  : 

Q.  You  have  learned  nothing  definite  in  regard  to  them  since,  I  sup 
pose? — A.  No,  sir;  we  arrived  back  at  the  camp  about  noon  the  next 
day  ;  staid  there  all  night ;  rode  back  about  daylight  towards  the  small 
camp ;  found  that  the  Indians  had  kept  their  word,  and  that  the  women 
had  gone,  and  then  left  and  arrived  next  day  at  Ouray's  house.  While 
at  the  Indians' camp  and  talking  it  all  over  again,  the  Indians  being  so 
very  anxious  to  make  peace  and  to  have  no  further  trouble  with  the  gov 
ernment,  even  the  women  and  children  coming  to  me  crying  and  begging 
me  to  keep  the  soldiers  away,  I  came  to  the  conclusion  that  the  matter 
could  be  settled  satisfactorily  to  the  government  by  the  surrender  of 
those  Indians  that  were  actually  guilty.  I  found  that  only  about  60  or 
70  h'ad  been  engaged  in  the  fight  with  the  soldiers,  and  that  only  about 
20  had  been  engaged  in  the  massacre  at  the  agency.  I  found  out 
from  several  of  the  chiefs  whom  I  had  known  for  some  years  that  such 
was  tfle  case;  that  not  all  of  them  had  been  in  the  fight  or  in  the  mas 
sacre,  and  that  they  were  willing  that  the  guilty  ones,  or  those  whom 
the  government  wanted,  should  be  given  up.  So,  when  I  returned  to 
the  Los  Pinos  Agency,  I  wrote  a  dispatch  to  that  effect  to  the  Secretary, 
telling  him  that  I  thought  an  investigation  would  bring  these  parties  to 
light,  and  that  the  interests  of  Colorado  required  that  the  soldiers 
should  not  advance.  The  Indians  told  me  themselves  that  if  the  sol 
diers  should  corne,  it  would  be  only  one  day's  inarch  for  them  (the  Utes) 
over  into  the  Gunnison  settlement,  where  there  were  some  five  or  six 
hundred  settlers  ;  that  they  could  strike  that  settlement  in  a  day  or  two 
before  any  soldiers  could  possibly  get  there,  and  that  a  great  many  peo 
pie  would  be  killed.  I  also  learned  from  General  Merritt  that  his  sol 
diers  were  very  illy  provided  ;  that  they  had  left  Fort  Russell  in  a  great 
hurry,  and  had  only  the  clothes  they  were  wearing  and  one  blanket 
apiece,  and  that  they  were  hardly  in  a  fit  condition  to -follow  the  In 
dians.  I  had  described  the  country  to  him  as  it  was — no  grass  between 


8  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

the  point  he  was  at  at  the  White  Eiver  and  the  camp  where  the  Indians 
were,  a  hundred  miles  off,  the  whole  country  barren,  just  dotted  with 
sage  brush,  and  with  hardly  any  grass  at  all.  In  fact,  at  one  time,  after 
passing  a  little  patch  of  grass,  we  had  to  travel  twenty  miles  in  order  to 
find  enough  feed  for  out  ponies — a  party  of  twenty-five.  I  represented 
these  facts  to  General  Merritt  on  his  asking  me  what  kind  of  a  country  it 
was ;  but  his  animals,  at  the  time  when  I  was  there,  were  suffering  from 
want  of  feed  ;  he  had  nothing  but  corn — no  hay  nor  oats,  and  the  ani 
mals  were  suffering.  I  had  an  Indian  pony  which  would  not  eat  corn, 
so  I  could  hardly  ride  him  back  to  the  camp  where  I  met  the  Indians. 
He  was  played  out  by  staying  there  one  day.  All  these  things  together 
induced  me  to  telegraph  to  the  Secretary  to  have  an  investigation,  and 
stop  the  advance  of  the  soldiers  at  that  time.  The  mail  going  east  had 
hardly  left  with  that  dispatch  when  I  received  a  dispatch  in  answer  to 
mine  from  White  Eiver,  saying  that  such  a  commission  had  been  al 
ready  appointed  by  him,  naming  me  as  one  of  the  members.  I  knew 
that  General  Hatch  was  700  miles  away,  and  could  not  be  there  for 
some  days;  sol  went  to  Ouray's  house,  who  had  also  been  named  as 
one  of  the  commissioners  to  investigate  the  trouble,  and  I  concluded  to 
go  outside  instead  of  waiting  ten  or  twelve  days,  and  examine  the 
women,  whom  I  had  had  no  time  or  opportunity  to  examine  in  the 
camp,  as  to  their  relations  with  the  Indians,  &c.  I  did  so.  I  tele 
graphed  the  Secretary  that  I  would  do  so,  and  he  approved  of  it. 
I  took  a  stenographer  in  Denver  and  went  to  the  home  of  these  ladies 
in  Greeley,  and  examined  one  after  the  other.  The  first  one  I  examined 
was  Mrs.  Price.  She  gave  her  story  as  I  had  seen  it  in  the  papers. 
By  that  time  they  had  been  out  several  days,  and  all  of  them  had 
given  their  stories  and  signed  their  names  to  them,  and  I  did  not  think 
that  I  would  have  much  to  investigate  only  as  to  some  cruelty  against 
them  individually,  so  as  to  mark  certain  members  of  the  tribe.  After 
Mrs.  Price  had  given  her  story  I  approached  the  subject  of  their  per 
sonal  treatment,  and  I  saw  at  once  that  there  was  something  more 
behind  that  so  far  had  not  come  out.  I  told  her  I  must  have  the  full  facts. 
She  said  no  ;  she  would  not  tell ;  that  that  was  none  of  my  business.  I 
said  it  was ;  that  she  was  under  oath  and  she  must  tell  the  whole  truth. 
Finally  she  said,  "O,  as  soon  as  I  tell  you  you  will  go  and  tell  some 
newspaper  man,  and  they  will  have  it  all  over  the  country,  and  I  will 
be  dishonored  forever."  I  said  "  No,  Mrs.  Price,  I  am  no  newspaper 
man ;  I  am  not  in  the  habit  of  going  to  newspaper  men  and  telling  them 
everything;  but,"  said  I,  "as  soon -as  this  report  is  submitted  to  the 
Secretary  and  by  him  to  Congress,  of  course  this  matter  will  come  out; 
there  is  no  help  for  that."  Well,  she  cried,  and  was  very  anxious  not 
to  be  obliged  to  tell.  Finally  she  admitted  that  this  man  that  had  cap 
tured  her  the  first  day  had  outraged  her  person  and  had  finally  given 
her  away  or  sold  her,  she  did  not  know  which,  to  the  Chief  Johnson,  and 
that  he,  the  same  morning  that  I  came  to  camp,  had  made  an  attack 
upon  her,  but  that  those  were  the  only  two  instances  of  her  being  out 
raged.  The  full  particulars  of  it  are  down  in  our  report,  and  I  under 
stood  from  the  Secretary  last  night  that  it  is  accessible  now,  so  that  it 
can  be  submitted  if  it  is  desired.  I  then  went  to  see  Miss  Josephine. 
She  told  her  story  the  same  as  she  had  told  it  before,  but,  having  learned 
from  Mrs.  Price  that  she  had  also  been  subjected  to  the  same  treatment, 
I  asked  her  to  state  all  the  particulars  about  it.  She  did  not  want  to 
testify;  she  thought  that  she  ought  not  to  be  made  to  tell  all  these 
matters.  Finally  she  testified,  and  afterwards  Mrs.  Meeker  also  testi 
fied.  I  then  returned,  met  General  Hatch  at  Alamosa,  and  we  went  to 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

the  agency.  I  arrived  there  several  days  before  he  came  in,  and  met 
several  of  these  White  Kiver  Utes  there  at  that  time  who  had  coine  in 
in  obedience  to  Ouray's  orders.  We  had  quite  a  lengthy  session  there 
of  six  weeks  trying  to  get  at  all  the  facts  in  the  case,  and  finally,  not 
being  able  to  get  anything  out  of  the  Indians,  who  seemed  to  have  de 
cided  not  to  implicate  each  other,  or  one  the  other,  we  had  to  take  the 
testimony  of  Mrs.  Price  and  Miss  Josephine  as  to  the  Indians  whom  they 
implicated  in  the  murder  of  her  father,  and  demand  twelve  Indians  to 
be  given  up  to  us  and  sent  East  for  trial.  This  was  agreed  to  by  them 
all  at  the  time,  and  they  simply  wanted  a  few  days  to  get  ready  and  get 
their  horses  in  shape,  and  General  Hatch  to  get  his  wagons  together  and 
then  leave,  but  since  then  it  seems  that  they  did  not  come — at  the  last 
minute  they  refused  to  come.  Four  of  these  men  are  the  persons  that 
maltreated  these  women  and  who  were  also  engaged  in  this  massacre. 

By  Mr.  HASKELL: 
Q.  Are  any  of  them  here  in  this  city? — A.  No,  sir j  none  of  them. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  their  names  ? — A.  Yes,  sir.  The  other  eight  were 
seen  by  the  women  before  the  fight  commenced  at  the  agency  with  arms 
in  their  hands  and  were  also  recognized  after  the  massacre  plundering 
the  warehouse.  Taking  these  two  facts  in  connection,  General  Hatch 
and  myself  demanded  them. 

By  Mr.  HASKELL  : 

Q.  Are  you  in  possession  of  any  facts  as  to  the  original  cause  of  this 
outbreak  as  stated  by  the  Indians — the  very  beginning  of  the  trouble? 
— A.  When  I  was  first  appointed  one  of  those  commissioners  I  tele 
graphed  to  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior  for  all  correspondence  between 
Mr.  Meeker  and  the  department,  and  also  between  Meeker  and  Thorn- 
burgh.  That  correspondence  was  sent  to  us  and  read  to  Ouray,  one  of 
the  members,  and  is  embraced  in  our  proceedings.  Otherwise  I  have 
only  the  statements  of  the  Indians  themselves.  We  examined  several 
of  these  Indians,  amongst  others  Chief  Douglas,  Jack,  Sawawick,  and 
others,  and  they  all  had  a  good  many  complaints  against  Agent 
Meeker,  and  they  seemed  to  blame  him  before  anybody  for  all  this  fight 
and  trouble ;  they  seemed  to  be  under  the  impression  that  it  was  brought 
about  by  him  in  connection  with  others  in  Colorado  to  get  them  in 
volved  in  some  trouble  with  the  government. 

Q.  Had  Agent  Meeker  ever  harmed  any  of  them  bodily  ? — A.  No. 
He  said  that  one  of  them,  the  man  Johnson,  had  struck  him  at  onetime, 
and  we  examined  Johnson  on  that  point,  and  he  acknowledged  that  he 
had  struck  him. 

By  Mr.  DEERING  : 

Q.  What  seemed  to  be  the  general  complaint  that  they  made  of  the 
agent  ? — A.  It  seemed  to  be  their  complaint  that  he  insisted  upon  their 
working  and  farming,  and  they  did  not  want  to.  They  said  it  was  not 
practicable  to  farm  there,  and  they  did  not  care  to  farm.  The  most  com 
plaint  they  seemed  to  have  was  that  he  one  day  said  something  to  them, 
and  the  uext  day  he  took  it  back  and  said  something  else.  He  seemed 
to  have  a  want  of  character.  For  example,  he  moved  the  agency  from 
the  old  location  where  it  had  been  first  established  by  the  government 
some  twelve  miles  down  the  river,  telling  them  that  there  was  better 
grass  there  and  they  could  all  have  a  home  there  and  corrals  for  their 
stock.  He  built  his  agency  in  the  center  of  this  big  flat,  and  divided 


10  UTE    INDIAN   OUTBREAK. 

up,  alongside  of  the  agency,  several  tracts  of  land  for  each  family  for 
them  to  build  their  houses  on  ;  and  one  or  two  of  them  did  build  houses 
on  this  laud  on  both  sides  of  the  agency,  and  soon  after  he  came  to  them 
and  told  them  that  they  must  move  away  from  there,  that  he  had  decided 
to  plow  that  land  which  he  had  given  them  a  short  time  before.  They 
said  that  he  had  plowed  enough  land,  that  they  must  have  feed  for 
their  horses.  And  he  said,  <*  You  have  got  too  many  horses  ;  you  had 
better  kill  them."  That  was  one  of  their  complaints. 

Q.  The  objection,  as  you  understand,  was  not  to  the  plowing  but  to 
the  precise  locality  of  it  ?— A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Mr.  HASKELL  : 

Q.  They  justified  the  massacre  of  the  agent  and  his  employes  because 
of  the  differences  of  opinion  as  to  administration,  the  plowing  of  land  ; 
is  that  it  ?— A.  No,  sir. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN: 

Q.  How  did  they  justify  that?— A.  They  justified  the  massacre  of  the 
agent  upon  the  ground  that  he  had  brought  the  soldiers  there  without 
any  necessity  whatever,  and  that  through  the  corning  of  the  soldiers 
several  of  their  people  had  been  killed  by  the  soldiers  first. 

By  Mr.  DEERING-  : 

Q.  Didn't  I  also  understand  you  to  say  that  he  had  threatened  them 
with  manacles  ! — A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Mr.  HASKELL: 

Q.  In  your  understanding  of  the  case,  what  sent  the  soldiers  out  there 
inthe  first  place  ? — A.  My  understating  is  that  two  Indians  had  set  fire  to 
some  grass  on  Bear  River,  that  a  warrant  was  sworn  out  against  those  two 
Indians,  and  a  sheriff  went  over  there  to  arrest  them  ;  that  the  chief 
refused  to  give  the  men  up ;  that  the  sheriff  came  out  and  reported  to 
the  governor,  and  that  at  the  governor's  request  those  troops  were  sent 
in  there  to  arrest  the  two  men.  That  is  what  they  say.  I  also  saw  that 
Mr.  Meeker  had  called  for  troops  for  his  own  personal  protection. 

By  Mr.  WADDILLL  : 
Q.  When  was  that? — A.  A  few  days  before  the  soldiers  came. 

By  Mr.  ERRETT  : 

Q.  The  soldiers  came  to  arrest  the  trespassing  Utes  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  j 
and  also  to  protect  the  agent. 

Q.  And  there  had  been  an  encounter  before  the  massacre  at  the 
agency  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  they  had  commenced  to  fight  three  or  four  hours 
before  that. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  The  Indians  charged  that  the  whites  commenced  that  fight  ? — A. 
The  Indians  charged  that  the  first  shots  were  fired  by  the  soldiers. 

Q.  I  understood  you  to  say  that  the  Indians  complained  that  the 
agent  and  the  governor  together  were  endeavoring  to  get  them  into  a 
difficulty  so  as  to  drive  them  from  their  reservation.  Did  those  charges 
take  any  definite  shape  ?  If  so,  what  was  it  !  Was  there  anybody  im 
plicated  besides  the  agent,  or  was  the  agent  implicated? — A.  Well, 
Chief  Jack  said  he  saw  the  whites  were  becoming  angry  at  the  Indians, 
and  he  went  to  Denver  to  see  the  governor  of  the  State  and  find  out 
why  they  were  so  hostile;  he  said  he  went  to  see  Governor  Pitkin, 
and  asked  him  to  use  his  influence  to  have  Mr.  Meeker  removed,  telling 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  11 

him  that  as  long  as  Mr.  Meeker  was  there  he  was  afraid  that  trouble 
would  come.  Jack  said  that  his  request  was  not  considered  at  all,  and 
that  Governor  Pitkiu  did  not  act  as  if  he  wanted  to  help  them  at  all. 

By  Mr.  GUNTER  : 

Q.  The  burning  of  this  grass,  which  you  speak  of,  and  which  seems 
to  have  been  the  cause,  to  some  extent,  of  the  trouble,  was  that  a  vio 
lation  of  any  existing  law  or  treaty,  or  was  it  merely  a  violation  of  an 
order  of  the  agent? — A.  This  was  on  the  Bear  Eiver,  outside  of  their 
reservation,  and  the  fire  swept  down  on  a  couple  of  houses  in  the  set 
tlement. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Is  that  the  only  reason  that  the  Indians  gave  for  supposing  that 
there  was  an  interference  with  their  rights  and  a  purpose  to  drive  them 
away?— A.  They  stated  in  general  that  they  thought  the  people  of  Col 
orado  wanted  their  reservation. 

Q.  But  that  is  all  the  ground  they  gave  for  thinking  so? — A.  Yes, 
sir. 

By  Mr.  GUNTER  : 

Q.  What  had  given  rise  to  this  threat  on  the  part  of  the  agent  about 
arresting  and  handcuffing  ?  Had  the  Indians  been  making  threats  or 
perpetrating  outrages  before  that? — A.  Yes;  one  Indian  had  struck 
the  agent,  and  another  had  fired  upon  one  of  the  employes,  although 
they  said  that  they  were  simply  firing  at  a  mark. 

By  Mr.  HASKELL  : 

Q.  The  statement  that  the  agent  had  threatened  to  bring  manacles, 
&c.,  was  simply  a  declaration  by  one  of  these  Indians — there  was  no 
proof  of  it  ? — A.  No,  sir ;  no  proof.  I  have  simply  stated  what  the  In 
dians  say. 

By  Mr.  POUND  : 

Q.  Did  you  gather  from  the  examination  of  any  white  witness,  Gov 
ernor  Pitkin,  or  any  one  else,  anything  corroborating  what  those  In 
dians  stated  ?-  A.  No,  sir ;  I  do  not  think  so. 

By  Mr.  DEERING  : 

Q.  Did  the  Indians  complain  that  the  whites  were  invading  their  ter 
ritory  as  miners  or  otherwise  ? — A.  No,  sir ;  not  that  I  heard  of.  In 
fact,  from  my  own  personal  knowledge  of  the  country,  I  think  there  is 
only  one  small  mining  camp  on  their  reservation,  Euby  City,  but  they 
do  not  know  it,  and  they  never  objected  to  it.  It  is  a  question  whether 
it  is  on  their  reservation  or  not,  but,  from  Hayden's  map,  which  is  pretty 
accurate,  it  seems  to  be  on  the  reservation. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN : 

Q.  Let  me  call  your  attention  to  the  report  made  by  the  agent  in 
1877,  in  which  he  says  that  squatters  out  there  had  produced  great  dis 
satisfaction  on  the  part  of  the  Indians.  Do  you  know  anything  about 
that? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  know  all  about  that. 

Q.  And  the  same  thing  was  reported  in  1878  ? — A.  Yes  ;  that  is  right. 
That  is  on  the  four-miles  strip.  The  Indians  sold  that  strip  last  year, 
although  they  have  not  got  their  money  yet.  Settlers  came  in"  and 
squatted  there  and  took  possession  of  the  land  ;  and  last  year  the  In 
dians,  to  get  rid  of  the  annoyance,  sold  it  for  $10,000  to  the  govern 
ment.  That  sale  was  made  prior  to  the  outbreak. 


12  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

By  Mr.  WADDILL  : 

Q.  In  your  judgment,  is  tbis  outbreak  attributable  to  the  coming  of 
the  troops  or  to  forcing  the  Indians  to  farming  and  the  plowing  of  their 
lands? — A.  I  think  it  was  the  soldiers  coming  there  that  produced  the 
outbreak. 

By  Mr.  POUND  : 

Q.  When  were  those  lands  plowed  up  ! — A.  A  few  days  before  the 
outbreak  occurred. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Do  you  understand  this  massacre  to  have  been  committed  by  the 
order  of  the  tribe  or  of  the  chiefs  ?— A.  No,  sir.  I  think  that  after  a  few 
Indians  were  killed  one  of  them  went  to  the  camp  and  stated  the  facts, 
and  got  a  few  other  hot-headed  young  men  in  with  him  to  go  and  kill 
the  agent,  and  that  the  chief  Douglass  had  not  power  enough  to  stop  it 
at  the  time,  and  that  then  he  turned  in  and  was  the  worst  of  all.  That 
is  ray  opinion. 

Q.  Do  I  understand  you  that  the  treatment  of  these  women  was  en 
dorsed  or  ordered  by  the  chiefs  ? — A.  No,  indeed.  The  women  belonged 
to  each  one  separately.  That  is  the  custom  of  their  tribe. 

Mr.  HASKELL.  That  is  the  custom  with  all  the  Indians;  whoever  cap 
tures  a  woman  owns  her  like  a  mule. 

By  Mr.  DEERINO  : 

Q.  You  have  stated  that  the  Indians  were  anxious  to  keep  the  sol 
diers  from  coming  nearer  than  within  forty  or  fifty  miles  5  that  they 
wanted  them  to  halt  there  and  send  forward  a  small  number  with  a  view 
to  the  arrangement  of  the  difficulty  ? — A.  Yes. 

Q.  Is  it  your  opinion  that  if  the  soldiers  had  listened  to  that  proposi 
tion,  and  five  men,  as  the  Indians  desired,  had  come  forward  and  an  ar 
rangement  had  been  entered  into  this  difficulty  could  have  been  avert 
ed  ? — A.  That  is  my  opinion. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Why  were  you  selected  for  this  delicate  business  J? — A.  I  don't 
know.  I  had  been  agent  for  the  White  Eiver  Indians  in  1870  and  1871, 
and  for  the  Southern  Indians  in  1872,  1873,  and  1874. 

By  Mr.  ERRETT  : 

Q.  Is  there  a  general  organization  of  these  tribes,  or  do  they  act  as 
three  separate  tribes  ? — A.  They  act  as  separate  tribes. 

Q.  Is  Ouray  chief  of  them  all,  or  is  he  simply  chief  of  the  Uncompah- 
gres? — A.  Well,  in  one  way;  all  questions  of  difficulty  are  referred  to 
him  finally,  although  the  chief  of  the  separate  tribe  has  absolute  control 
of  them. 

Q.  Still  there  is  some  federal  relation  between  the  three  tribes  I — A. 
Yes.  For  example,  they  sent  messengers  to  Ouray  telling  him  that  their 
agent  was  not  a  good  man,  and  asking  him  to  use  his  influence  to  have 
the  agent  removed. 

By  Mr.  WADDILL  : 

Q.  Did  Ouray  urge  the  removal  ? — A.  He  says  that  he  urged  his  agent 
to  write  to  Washington  and  ask  for  the  removal  of  Mr.  Meeker,  but,  in 
asmuch  as  he  never  heard  of  it  afterwards,  he  supposes  that  the  agent 
never  did  it.  This  was  a  good  while  ago. 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  13 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Is  there  any  other  information  in  your  possession  which  would 
throw  light  upon  the  cause  of  that  outbreak  ! — A.  I  do  not  think  of 
anything  else  now,  but  by  reading  over  the  testimony  of  the  Indians 
that  we  took  something  else  might  be  suggested  to  my  mind. 

Q.  Did  you  learn  anything  while  there  as  to  the  conduct  of  Agent 
Meeker  to  justify 'the  complaints  on  the  part  of  the  Indians? — A.  Well, 
I  don't  think  that  Mr.  Meeker  understood  those  Indians ;  I  think  he 
tried  to  do  his  best  to  civilize  them.  He  was  a  great  agriculturist,  and 
he  thought  that  he  could  succeed  in  forcing  the  Indians  to  work  and  to 
accept  the  situation  as  farmers,  but  he  did  not  take  in  consideration  that 
it  is  almost  impossible  to  'force  Indians  into  that  sort  of  labor  all  at 
once.  At  the  Southern  Agency  a  few  of  them  had  farmed,  and  by  gain 
ing  something  from  it  they  came  to  look  favorably  upon  it.  For  exam 
ple,  some  of  them  raised  a  large  quantity  of  potatoes  there  and  got  some 
money  for  the  crop,  and  the  result  was  that  probably  three-fourths  of 
them  asked  me  why  I  could  not  do  something  to  get  a  large  ditch  cut 
for  them  in  this  Uncompahgre  Valley  so  that  they  all  could  go  to  work 
in  that  way.  As  it  is  we  need  a  great  deal  of  irrigation  in  Colorado. 
There  are  only  two  or  three  litthe  springs  there  to  furnish  water,  and 
all  the  water  that  the  Indians  could  get  has  been  utilized.  Ouray  him 
self  farms  thirty  or  forty  acres.  If  there  was  a  large  ditch  cut  for  irri 
gating  purposes  a  great  many  of  them  would  farm,  because  the  Uncom 
pahgre  Valley  is  very  good  agricultural  region,  but  the  White  River 
Valley  is  unfit  for  cultivation.  The  Indians  say  that  they  told  Mr. 
Meeker  that ;  tbat  they  said  to  him  that  Agent  Adams,  Agent  Dan- 
forth,  and  Agent  Littlefield  had  tried  it  and  had  failed  to  raise  anything, 
and  why  should  he  attempt  it,  and  his  answer,  they  said,  was  that  he 
was  a  farmer  and  we  were  not. 

By  Mr.  WADDILL  : 

Q.  Did  he  in  fact  try  to  force  them  to  farm  ? — A.  He  plowed  this 
land. 

Q.  But  did  he  set  them  to  work  at  it? — A.  Yes  ;  he  made  them  build 
a  ditch.  Jack  claims  that  Mr.  Meeker  told  him  that  if  he  didn't  work 
he  wouldn't  give  him  anything  to  eat. 

By  Mr.  DEERINO  : 

Q.  So  far  as  you  could  learn  was  he  disposed  to  be  arbitrary  in  his 
manner  of  dealing  with  the  Indians? — A.  Well,  I  really  cannot  answer 
that.  Of  course  the  Indians  say  everything  bad  about  him,  but  from 
what  I  knew  of  Mr.  Meeker,  and  I  have  known  him  for  several  years,  I 
always  considered  him  an  excellent  man.  I  think,  however,  that  he  had 
too  much  the  idea  that  he  could  make  the  Indians  work  in  his  way,  and 
could  be  successful  where  other  agents  had  failed. 
By  Mr.  GUNTER  : 

Q.  The  first  killing  seems  to  have  been  done  by  the  troops  when  they 
killed  two  or  three  Indians;  was  that  done  while  the  troops  were  on 
their  way  to  the  agency  or  after  they  had  reached  the  agency  ? — A.  It 
was  while  they  were  on  their  way. 

Q.  Were  they  necessarily  going  through  the  reservation  where  the 
Indians  were,  or  had  the  Indians  come  to  meet  them  ? — A.  The  Indians 
came  to  meet  them,  but  within  the  reservation,  at  the  point  where  the 
reservation  line  runs. 

By  Mr.  ERRETT  : 
Q.  They  had  made  an  arrangement  to  meet  the  troops  there,  1  be- 


14  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

lieve;  was  not  that  the  understanding? — A.  I  can  tell  you  Jack's  story 
pretty  well.  He  says  it  was  this  way :  The  evening  before  the  fight  an 
agreement  had  been  made  that  Thornburgh  (and  Major  Thorn  burgh's  let 
ter  to  Agent  Meeker  confirms  that  statement) — that  he  would  leave  his 
command  at  a  suitable  point,  and  he,  with  five  officers,  would  come  and 
meet  an  equal  number  of  Indian  chiefs  with  Mr.  Meeker  at  some  place 
between  the  agency  and  where  he  then  was — at  Williams  Ford — some 
thirty-five  miles  away  from  the  agency;  that  this  letter  was  given  to  an 
Indian  to  carry  to  the  agent  and  was  carried  to  him,  and  that  only  an 
hour,  or  perhaps  a  few  minutes  before  Mr.  Meeker  was  killed,  he  sent 
an  answer  saying,  "All  right;  I  will  meet  you  to-morrow";  but  he  put 
off  the  meeting  a  whole  day.  The  fight  had  already  commenced  then, 
and  Meeker  sent  this  message  that  he  would  meet  them  the  next  day. 
So,  early  in  the  morning  of  this  day,  when  the  Indians  were  camped 
ten  or  twelve  miles  from  the  agency,  nearer  to  Major  Thornburgh,  a 
messenger  came  to  them  and  said  :  u  The  troops  are  not  stopping  where 
they  promised  to  stop  yesterday,  but  are  coming  on."  Then  Jack,  with 
his  men,  some  fifty  or  sixty  in  number,  started  out  to  meet  them,  with 
out,  he  says,  any  hostile  intention,  but  simply  to  see  whether  Thorn- 
burgh  was  going  to  keep  his  word.  They  went  out  towards  Milk  Creek, 
about  twenty  miles,  and  saw  the  wagons  going  ahead  on  the  road  and 
that  they  had  passed  the  crossing  of  the  creek,  a  place  where  there  was  nice 
grass — a  good  stopping-place — and  that  the  wagons  were  strung  out  in 
the  sage  brush  again,  so  that  they  would  have  to  go  a  long  distance  be 
fore  they  would  find  another  camping-place.  Thereupon,  Jack  says,  the 
Indians  withdrew  and  went  up  on  a  high  trail,  and  the  soldiers,  instead 
of  going  on  along  the  wagon  road,  as  the  Indians  expected  them  to  go, 
came  up  on  this  very  same  trail.  Jack  says,  UI  stood  up  on  the  hill 
with  twenty  or  thirty  of  my  men,  and  all  at  once  I  saw  thirty  or  forty 
soldiers  in  my  front,  and  just  as  soon  as  they  saw  me  they  deployed  off 
one  after  another.  I  was  with  General  Crook  the  year  before  fighting 
the  Sioux,  and  I  knew  in  a  minute  that  as  soon  as  this  officer  deployed 
his  men  out  in  that  way  it  meant  fight;  sol  told  my  men  to  deploy  also.'7 
Jack  also  says  that  he  saw  the  officer  come  out  from  his  men  and  swing 
his  hat.  That  was  Lieutenant  Cherry,  because  he  states  the  same  fact 
in  his  report.  "Then,"  says  Jack,  UI  and  another  Indian  went  out  to 
meet  them,  but  while  we  were  still  some  distance  apart,  between  the 
two  skirmish  lines,  a  shot  was  fired.  I  don't  know  from  which  side,  and 
in  a  second  so  many  shots  were  fired,  that  1  knew  I  could  not  stop  the 
fight,  although  I  swung  my  hat  to  my  men  and  shouted,  i  Don't  fire ; 
we  only  want  to  talk;'  but  they  understood  me  to  be  encouraging  them 
to  fight." 

By  Mr.  HASKELL  : 

Q.  Thornburgh  could  not  have  been  in  possession  of  any  message  from 
the  agent  at  that  time.  He  must  have  been  entirely  in  the  dark  in  re 
gard  to  the  agent,  and  ignorant  of  whether  he  was  alive  or  dead  ? — A. 
He  could  not  have  known. 

Q.  So  in  moving  his  troops  forward  in  obedience  to  orders  he  is  con 
fronted  with  some  Indians,  who  he  supposes  may  be  hostile,  he  deploys 
his  line  and  they  deploy  their  line,  and  a  conflict  is  inevitable,  and  the 
question  of  who  fired  the  first  shot  is  one  which  probably  will  never  be 
determined  ? — A.  I  think  we  made  our  inquiry  as  thorough  as  it  could 
possibly  be  made,  for  General  Hatch  is  a  military  man,  and  understands 
all  about  these  matters,  and  it  is  not  possible  to  say  with  certainty  who 
fired  the  first  shot. 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  15 

By  Mr.  GUNTER  : 

Q.  How  far  was  this  from  the  agency  ? — A.  Some  twenty-five  miles 
north. 

Q.  Immediately  after  that  the  IndiaLS  retreated  and  killed  the  agent 
and  others,  and  took  these  captives  "? — A.  Yes  ;  one  of  them  rode  back 
and  brought  the  news,  and  then  the  Indians  at  the  agency  rose. 

By  Mr.  DEERING  : 

Q.  There  was  no  reason,  was  there,  why  the  agent  should  not  have 
replied  earlier  to  that  dispatch  from  Thornburgh  ? — A.  It  seems  to  me 
that  if  I  had  been  the  agent  I  would  have  immediately  started  forward 
myself. 

Q.  But  you  understand,  do  you  not,  that  the  messenger  was  delayed 
for  nearly  a  day  ?— A.  Not  the  messenger,  but  Mr.  Meeker's  answer. 

Mr.  HASKELL.  The  time  for  meeting  the  Indians  was  put  a  day  later 
ahead  than  the  first  proposition,  but  the  message  fixing  the  day  was 
sent  immediately,  was  it  not? 

The  WITNESS.  I  don't  think  it  was  ever  sent. 

Mr.  HASKELL.  I  thought  you  said  that  it  was  sent,  and  that  the  In 
dian  bearing  it  was  killed. 

The  WITNESS.  It  was  sent,  but  it  never  was  received.  It  was  sent 
next  day  at  noon,  just  a  few  minutes  before  Mr.  Meeker  was  killed. 

By  Mr.  DEERING  : 

Q.  But  it  should  have  been  sent  a  day  sooner! — A.  It  seems  to  me 
that  it  should  ha\Te  been  sent  in  the  night.  There  was  some  misunder 
standing.  The  correspondence  explains  it  much  better  than  1  can  tell 
it,  because  I  have  not  got  it  all  in  my  head.  The  correspondence  shows 
that  there  was  some  misunderstanding  as  to  the  time  and  the  meeting 
place  ;  that  Major  Thornburgh  first  agreed  to  meet  the  Indians  half-way 
and  then  backed  out  of  that,  giving  the  Indians  the  excuse  that  there 
was  no  grass,  and  that  he  had  to  go  to  White  Eiver  to  find  grass,  while 
the  Indians  say  that  right  at  Milk  Creek,  where  he  crossed,  was  a  very 
good  place  to  camp,  even  if  it  was  necessary  to  leave  the  place  first 
fixed  upon. 

Q.  And  they  hold  that  the  fight  grew  out  of  bad  faith?— A.  Yes;  bad 
faith  on  the  part  of  Thornburgh. 

By  Mr.  HASKELL  : 

Q.  Thornburgh  might  have  supposed  that  there  was  treachery  ahead, 
and  might  have  been  unwilling  to  take  the  risk.— A.  Probably  so.  He 
must  have  gotten  some  after  information  in  regard  to  that,  of  he  must 
have  thought  that  it  would  not  make  any  difference,  that  there  would 
be  no  trouble  anyway. 

By  Mr.  WADDILL  : 

Q.  Was  he  going  there  at  that  time  in  response  to  the  request  of 
Agent  Meeker  ?— A.  The  agent  wrote  him  that  he  had  better  stay  ;  that 
an  advance  to  the  agency  with  his  whole  force  would  be  accepted  by 
the  Indians  as  a  virtual  declaration  of  war. 

Q.  But  had  he  started  out  from  his  headquarters,  wherever  they  were, 
in  pursuance  of  a  request  from  Agent  Meeker  ! — A.  Yes. 

Mr.  HASKELL.  And  also  on  a  request  from  the  governor  of  the  State  I 

The  WITNESS.  Yes. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 
Q.  For  those  two  men  ? — A,  Yes,  sir. 


16  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

By  Mr.  GUNTER  : 

Q.  What  seems  to  have  been  the  cause  of  the  troops  going  there? 
Did  they  go  at  the  request  of  Agent  Meeker  ? — A.  They  appeared  to 
have  gone  partly  at  the  request  of  Mr.  Meeker  and  partly  at  the  request 
of  the  governor  of  the  State  to  arrest  the  parties  who  set  fire  to  this 
grass. 

By  Mr.  DEERING  : 

Q.  If  I  understand  some  dispatches  that  I  have  seen  in  connection 
with  this  matter,  the  Indians  gave  notice  to  the  whites  that  if  the  sol 
diers  advanced  nearer  than  fifty  miles  they  would  consider  it  a  declara 
tion  of  war? — A.  I  don't  know  as  to  whether  they  so  informed  the  set 
tlers  or  not,  but  I  have  seen  Mr.  Meeker's  long  letter  in  which  he  states 
that  if  Major  Thornburgh  advanced  beyond  where  he  then  was  the  In 
dians  would  take  it  as  a  declaration  of  war. 

Adjourned. 


WASHINGTON,  January  17,  1878. 

WM.  M.  LEEDS  sworn  and  examined. 
By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  State  your  residence  and  occupation. — Answer.  I  reside  in 
New  York.  My  occupation  latterly  has  been  somewhat  of  a  literary 
character. 

Q.  Have  you  had  any  connection  with  Indian  matters  ? — A.  I  have, 
as  chief  clerk  of  the  Indian  Office,  for  about  a  year  preceding  the  25th 
of  January  last. 

Q.  Tiiis  committee  have  in  charge  the  investigation  of  the  recent  Ute 
outbreak ;  you  have  been  called  here  for  the  purpose  of  giving  the  com 
mittee  any  information  on  that  subject  which  you  may  have;  if  you 
know  anything  or  can  say  anything  which  will  throw  light  upon  it,  state 
it  in  your  own  way. — A.  The  main  part  of  the  supplies  and  subsistence 
which  these  Indians  had  was  obtained  by  hunting.  There  was  a  circu 
lar  issued  from  the  Indian  Office  forbidding  the  sale  of  arms  and  ammu 
nition.  Traders  would  not  take  out  a  license  to  go  to  that  agency  if 
they  could  not  sell  arms  and  ammunition,  because  the  Indians  would 
sell  their  buckskin,  which  was  the  chief  result  of  their  hunting,  wherever 
they  could  buy  arms  and  ammunition,  and  they  had  to  go  about  ninety 
miles  off  the  reservation  to  a  trader  to  do  that. 

By  Mr.  HASKELL  : 

Q.  At  what  point  was  the  trader  located  ?— A.  I  cannot  tell  you  the 
exact  location.  I  do  not  know  that  it  has  any  name. 

Q.  Which  direction  from  the  agency  ?— A.  I  cannot  tell  you  ;  toward 
Eawlins,  I  should  think. 

Q.  Near  what  town  ?— A.  I  cannot  tell  you,  sir.  Agent  Dauforth 
and  Agent  Meeker  complained  of  this  thing ;  said  that  it  was  impossible 
to  keep  the  Indians  on  the  reservation  and  to  make  them  become  agri 
culturists  while  it  continued. 

Q.  Is  that  order  about  the  sale  of  arms  and  ammunition  a  provision 
of  law  ? — A.  There  was  an  Indian  Office  order  during  the  previous  ad 
ministration,  and  there  has  been  another  order  since  this  administration 
came  in. 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  17 

Q.  Is  there  any  law  against  the  sale  of  ammunition  and  arms  ! — A. 
No  j  there  is  a  law  against  metallic  cartridges  being  sold,  but  this  circu 
lar  forbade  the  sale  of  arras  and  ammunition. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN: 

Q.  Did  any  of  the  treaties  require  that  they  should  have  these  arms 
and  ammunition  ? — A.  No,  sir  ;  it  is  a  necessity  for  their  existence,  how 
ever.  At  the  time  they  were  at  Kawlins  asking  for  their  supplies  they 
had  been  off  on  a  hunting  expedition  and  failed  to  get  game;  and  they 
went  to  Rawlins  to  either  get  their  supplies  in  store  or  to  beg.  They 
had  to  go  too  far  for  their  arms  and  ammunition,  it  took  them  off  the 
reservation  ;  it  kept  them  disturbed  and  dissatisfied  ;  they  felt  it  was  a 
grievance  that  there  was  no  trader  there;  no  trader  would  go  there,  be 
cause  he  could  not  get  their  products.  They  would  sell  those  where 
they  could  get  arms  and  ammunition. 

By  Mr.  WADDILL  : 

Q.  How  are  arms  and  ammunition  tarnished — don't  they  buy  them 
from  the  trader  ? — A.  No,  sir  ;  they  are  smuggled  into  the  reservations 
and  the  Indians  go  off  the  reservations  to  get  them.  When  there  is  any 
trouble,  they  show  for  themselves  that  they  have  them.  It  is  simply  a 
hardship,  where  they  are  obliged  to  make  their  living  by  hunting,  that 
they  cannot  buy  arms  and  ammunition. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  How  could  that  well  be  remedied? — A.  In  their  case  the  trader 
should  have  been  licensed  to  sell.  The  difficulty  is  in  making  a  general 
rule.  For  instance,  take  the  Pawnee  Agency  ;  the  Pawnees  complained 
that  although  at  one  time  the  agent  counted  fifteen  white  men  shooting 
around  and  near  the  agency,  the  Indians  could  not  procure  any  ammu 
nition  unless  they  went  a  long  distance  off  the  reservation  to  get  it. 

By  Mr.  WADDILL  : 

Q.  Are  the  traders  authorized  to  sell  arms  and  ammunition  to  the 
Indians  at  any  of  the  agencies? — A.  The  Indians  made  so  much  of  a 
time  about  it  that  I  think  there  were  a  few  so  authorized  in  the  eastern 
part  of  the  Indian  Territory. 

By  Mr.  DEERING  : 

Q.  Do  I  understand  you  that  the  Indians  had  complained  of  the  de 
partment  or  the  agent  because  of  the  lack  of  these  conveniences  ? — A. 
lies,  sir ;  successive  agents  of  the  White  Biver  Utes  complained. 

By  Mr.  HASKELL  : 

Q.  In  your  judgment,  the  Utes  would  have  been  more  peaceable  if 
some  licensed  trader  had  been  authorized  to  sell  them  guns  and  ammu 
nition  ? — A.  I  do  think  so. 

Q.  You  think  that  would  be  a  wise  policy? — A.  I  do  think  it  would 
have  been  so  with  those  Indians.  In  a  country  where  a  man  can  walk 
100  miles  without  meeting  anybody,  it  is  absurd  to  suppose  that  arms 
and  ammunition  will  not  be  sold  to  them  by  smugglers. 

Q.  The  policy  of  the  administration,  at  the  time  you  were  under  it, 
was  to  have  the  Indians  secure  a  livelihood  by  arts  and  agriculture  in 
stead  of  hunting,  was  it  not? — A.  So  far  as  they  could  ;  but  there  has 
scarcely  ever  been  a  time  when  an  Indian  has  had  a  chance  to  do  much 
work  on  a  full  stomach ;  they  have  never  bad  enough  to  give  them  a 
chance  to  work  at  agriculture.  The  whole  thing  is  foolish  to  the  last 
H.  Mis.  38 2 


18  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

.degree.  Take  an  agency  like  the  Cheyenne,  5,000  Indians,  and  one 
farmer  to  teach  them  to  farm.  Now,  what  nonsense  that  is.  The  Indians 
are  scattered  up  and  down  the  river  for  75  miles  ;  and  of  course  one  man 
cannot  teach  them  farming  when  they  are  scattered  in  that  way  ;  and 
that  is  a  specimen  of  the  agencies  generally. 
Q.  Is  that  a  provision  of  law  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

By  Mr.  DEERING  : 

Q.  Do  you  believe  that  the  Indians  are  certain  to  have  these  arms 
and  ammunition  in  any  event,  and  that  it  would  be  better  that  they 
should  be  supplied  by  the  agent  or  by  some  person  acting  under  the 
government,  than  to  have  them  smuggled  in? — A.  I  do. 

Q.  You  think  they  are  certain  to  have  them  ? — A.  Yes,  sir,  I  do  ;  and 
I  think  there  are  other  good  reasons  why  they  should  have  them. 

Q.  Of  course,  it  is  arming  them  to  war  against  the  white  people  if 
they  are  so  disposed. — A.  Well,  there  are  two  sides  to  that.  I  do  not 
think  they  are  so  disposed,  unless  they  have  pretty  good  cause. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Has  it  been  the  policy  of  the  government  with  regard  to  these  Ute 
Indians  to  deprive  them  of  arms  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  to  deprive  them  of 
arms. 

Q.  And  you  think  that  policy  has  irritated  them  f — A.  Yes.  sir. 

Q.  They  are  a  hunting  tribe,  supporting  themselves  mainly  by  hunt 
ing  ? — A.  Yes,  sir.  As  to  the  irritation  caused  by  the  delay  in  getting 
food  at  Eawlins,  I  should  have  to  refer  to  the  telegrams  and  correspond 
ence  from  the  warehouse  men  at  Eawlins  and  the  Indian  Office  to  get 
the  exact  facts. 

By  Mr.  HASKELL  : 

Q.  What  was  the  date  of  that  delay  ? — A.  I  say  I  should  have  to  refer 
to  correspondence. 

Q.  How  far  back  was  that  delay  ? — A.  Well,  it  was  after  October  1, 
1877. 

Q.  What  time  did  the  present  Commissioner  take  his  place  ? — A. 
About  September  29  or  30. 

Q.  The  contracts  then  for  the  supply  of  those  Indians  with  this  food 
supposed  to  be  obtained  at  Kawlins  was  made  by  the  preceding  Com 
missioner  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  j  those  things  had  lain  in  store  there  for  a  year 
previous. 

Q.  Under  Mr.  Smith  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  except  some  flour. 

Q.  Is  it  practicable  to  send  supplies  from  Eawlius  to  the  agency  after 
October  1  ?  Can  you  do  it  f — A.  Yes,  sir.  The  snow  falls  some  time 
later  than  October  1,  and  even  with  snow  they  can  be  sent  if  they  really 
intend  to  send  them. 

Q.  What  is  the  distance  ? — A.  About  175  miles. 

Q.  Are  those  goods  delivered  by  contract  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  the  contractor  failed  to"  deliver  them  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  Mr.  Mc- 
Canu  failed ;  he  did  not  pay  his  freight.  The  difficulty  was  that  the 
office  had  no  right  to  pay  McCann's  freight. 

Q.  And,  in  your  judgment,  this  outbreak  was  occasioned  by  the  delay 
to  turnish  supplies  to  the  Indians  two  years  and  four  months  before  the 
outbreak  occurred  ;  is  that  it  ? — A.  No,  sir.  In  my  judgment,  one  irri 
tating  cause  of  this  outbreak  was  the  starving  condition  which  the  In 
dians  found  themselves  in  at  Eawlius,  because  of  a  lack  of  supplies  and 
because  of  the  delay  at  Eawlins  in  furnishing  them  with  their  own 
goods. 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  19 

Q.  Has  there  been  any  delay  since  October,  1877?— A.  This  delay  was 
subsequent  to  that  time. 

Q.  And  you  think  it  was  entirely  feasible  after  October  and  on  the 
coining  in  of  the  new  Commissioner  to  have  made  a  new  contract  and 
secured  the  delivery  of  the  goods  to  the  agency  that  fall  and  winter  ? — 
A.  It  would  not  have  been  necessary  to  make  a  new  contract.  Goods 
to  the  amount  of  $3,000  could  have  been  bought  without  a  contract. 

Q.  Do  you  know  at  what  time  the  present  Commissioner  had  notice 
of  this  delay  ? — A.  The  report  of  Agent  Danforth  was  dated  in  August ; 
I  cannot  say  exactly  when  that  report  was  received  in  the  office. 

Q.  Some  time  in  October,  was  it  not? — A.  That  was  about  it;  but  I 
cannot  say  exactly. 

Q.  And  the  failure  of  the  contractor,  and  the  contract  and  all  the  de 
tails  concerning  the  delivery  of  those  supplies  were  arranged  by  the 
preceding  Commissioner  ? — A.  The  failure  of  the  contractor  was  under 
the  preceding  Commissioner. 

Q.  The  first  intimation,  then,  of  the  delay  came  to  the  present  Com 
missioner  perhaps  a  month  following  his  appointment? — A.  No,  sir;  I 
cannot  say  that.  It  might  have  been  the  day  after  his  appointment  for 
all  I  know.  I  should  have  to  refer  to  the  correspondence  to  answer 
that. 

Q.  How  long  did  it  take  a  letter  to  come  from  the  agency  to  the  office 
here  ? — A.  About  seven  or  eight  days. 

Q.  And  a  reply  would  be  as  long  on  the  way,  seven  or  eight  days 
more? — A.  Yes,  sir.  Although  the  supplies  could  have  been  sent  some 
time  during  the  summer  previous  to  the  present  Commissioner  coming 
into  office,  still  there  was  the  same  difficulty  as  to  the  payment  of 
freight ;  the  office  could  not  pay  Mr.  McCann's  freight. 

Q.  Why? — A.  Because  they  are  not  allowed  to  pay  money  to  the 
Union  Pacific  Kailway  in  that  way,  and  of  course  they  would  not  have 
been  authorized  to  pay  McCann's  bill ;  at  any  rate  I  think  that  even 
at  that  time  the  value  of  the  supplies  was  pretty  well  consumed  in 
freight  charges. 

By  Mr.  WADDILL  : 

Q.  Were  the  supplies  held  by  the  railway  company  for  freight  charges  ? 
— A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Mr.  HASKELL  : 

Q.  And  the  Commissioner  had  no  authority  under  the  law  to  pay 
those  charges  ? — A.  No,  sir. 
By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  What  ought  to  have  been  the  remedy  for  that  state  of  things,  or 
was  there  any  ? — A.  There  ought  to  have  been  supplies  procured,  either 
some  arrangement  made  to  get  those  supplies  out  during  the  previous 
summer  subsequent  to  the  incoming  of  this  Commissioner,  or  else  new 
supplies  procured.  After  that  clamor  that  was  made  the  Utes  were 
furnished  with  supplies,  and  I  see  no  reason  why  they  might  not  have 
furnished  just  as  well  previously,  without  waiting  until  they  were 
starving. 

By  Mr.  HASKELL  : 

Q.  Was  there  any  money  that  could  have  been  applied  to  the  pur 
chase  of  new  supplies? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  They  still  had  a  fund  unexpended  ? — A.  O,  the  Utes  have  had 
money  unexpended  for  years,  ever  since  the  Brunot  treaty,  which  could 
have  been  used  to  keep  them  from  starving. 


20  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Do  I  understand  you  to  say  that  provisions  were  actually  bought 
after  the  clamor? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Mr.  WADDILL  : 

Q.  About  what  time  ?— A.  I  cannot  tell  without  referring  to  the  cor 
respondence  in  the  office,  and  the  telegrams  and  documents. 
.  Q.  I  understand  you  to  say  that  this  failure  of  supplies  was  after  or 
about  October,  1877.  How  long  after  that  was  it  that  the  supplies  were 
furnished  ?— A.  The  Indians  were  there  at  Kawlins  some  time.  I  can 
not  tell  just  how  long. 

By  Mr.  DEERINO  : 

Q.  If  I  understand  correctly,  if  there  was  cause  of  complaint  at  the 
time  you  state  it  was  removed  afterwards,  and  they  had  made  no  com 
plaint  for  a  considerable  number  of  months  prior  to  the  outbreak  I — A. 
They  have  had  ample  cause  of  complaint  since  that. 

By  Mr.  HASKELL  : 

Q.  About  supplies  or  food  ? — A.  That  I  cannot  say.  What  I  refer  to 
is  the  non-payment  of  the  moneys  due  them  under  the  Brunot  treaty, 
and  also  the  fact  that  they  were  notified  publicly,  I  think  in  two  suc 
cessive  reports,  that  it  was  proposed  by  the  Commissioner  to  remove 
them  or  have  them  removed  to  the  Indian  Territory. 

By  Mr.  WADDILL  : 

Q.  What  reports  were  those  ? — A.  The  annual  reports  to  the  Secre 
tary  of  the  Interior.  Those  reports  are  sent  out  to  the  agency,  and  the 
agent  sees  them  and  the  interpreter  sees  them,  and  the  Indians  know 
pretty  well  anything  therein  contained  which  affects  them. 

Q.  When  was  the  money  under  the  Brunot  treaty  refused  them  ? — 
A.  From  1874,  for  three  years,  there  was  $25,000  a  year  due  them,  which 
was  not  paid.  Then  when  the  new  Ute  commission  went  out  in  1878 
they  paid  the  Indians  something  on  account,  but  there  is  now  some  sixty 
and  odd  thousand  dollars  due  them,  or  more  than  that. 

By  Mr.  PEERING  : 

Q.  You  say  there  was  $25,000  due  them  each  year  for  three  years  and 
unpaid  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  and  that  was  a  constant  grievance,  and  all  the 
more  so  because  Ouray  was  paid  his  $1,000  a  year. 

Q.  Was  that  failure  to  pay  owing  to  the  lack  of  an  appropriation  by 
Congress  or  was  it  the  fault  of  the  department? — A.  It  was  not  for  lack 
of  an  appropriation ;  it  was  the  fault  of  the  department. 

By  Mr.  WADDILL  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  any  reason  which  was  assigned  by  the  department 
for  that  money  being  withheld  ? — A.  The  main  reason  that  I  know  of, 
after  the  present  Commissioner  came  in,  was  inattention  to  business — 
I  do  not  know  of  any  other  reason ;  and  the  same  with  the  delay  at 
Kawlius — inattention  to  business. 

Q.  What  had  held  up  that  $25,000  for  the  three  years  preceding  ? — 
A.  The  excuse  made  is  that  they  were  afraid  the  Indians  would  buy 
arms  and  ammunition. 

Q.  That  was  under  Commissioner  Smith,  was  it  not  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  was  this  money  distributed  among  the  Indians  when  it  was 
paid  ? — A.  They  had  their  pro  rata  share,  each  Indian;  it  was  divided 
up. 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  21 

By  Mr.  HASKELL: 

Q.  Has  the  money  ever  been  paid  ? — A.  Since  it  became  due  to  them, 
about  $65,000,  the  government  has  owed  them  that  amount — has  been 
behindhand  all  that  time. 

By  Mr.  WAD  DILL  : 

Q.  When  did  that  first  become  due  under  that  treaty  ? — A.  I  should 
have  to  refer  to  the  treaty  in  order  to  answer  that ;  I  think  it  was  in 
the  spring  of  1875. 

By  Mr.  GUNTER  : 

Q.  The  treaty  was  made  in  1874,  was  it  not?— A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  believe 
so;  but  I  do  not  think  it  was  ratified  until  1875. 

By  Mr.  HASKELL  : 

Q.  You  say  that  a  fund  of  $65,000  due  the  Indians  has  remained  on 
hand  unexpended,  having  accumulated  under  Mr.  Smith's  administra 
tion.  The  present  Commissioner,  then,  I  understand,  has  disbursed 
that  fund. — A.  No,  sir;  he' has  not.  There  is  that  amount  due  under 
the  present  Commissioner. 

Q.  The  indebtedness  accrued  under  the  preceding  Commissioner, 
didn't  it  ? — A.  Under  the  preceding  Commissioner  and  under  this  Com 
missioner. 

Q.  If  it  commenced  in  1875,  then  it  has  run  for  three  years,  making 
$75,000;  but  you  say  the  amount  due  is  $65,000. — A.  I  say  that  in  the 
spring  of  1878  we  owed  them  $65,000. 

Q.  That  was  the  spring  of  the  incoming  of  the  present  Commissioner? 
— A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  this  indebtedness  had  accrued  under  the  preceding  Commis 
sioner  T—  A.  Part  of  it,  and  part  under  the  present  Commissioner; 
about  six  months  ot  it  under  this  Commissioner,  but  more  of  it  under 
this  administration — there  had  been  a  whole  year  under  this  adminis 
tration. 

Q.  You  say  that  amount  remains  due  and  unpaid  yet? — A.  No,  sir; 
it  has  been  reduced,  but  there  is  still  about  $65,000  due  under  that  ar 
rangement. 

Q.  Then  the  present  Commissioner  has  paid  his  $25,000  a  year  since 
he  has  had  charge,  and  has  also  reduced  the  amount  due  at  the  time  of 
his  coming  into  oflice;  is  that  correct? — A.  The  present  Commissioner 
sent  some  funds  in  1878,  six  months  after  he  came  into  office,  or  a  year 
after  this  administration  came  into  office,  and  there  has  been  something 
sent  since  that.  1  could  tell  exactly  by  reference  to  the  papers. 

Q.  Your  statement  is  that  there  is  about  $65,000  remaining  unpaid^ 
and  that  about  $75,000  had  accrued  before  this  administration  came  in 
charge;  this  present  Commissioner,  therefore,  must  have  paid  all  that 
was  due  the  Utes  during  the  mouths  before  the  outbreak,  and  also 
must  have  reduced  the  original  indebtedness  which  accrued  under  Mr. 
Smith.  Is  that  correct? — A.  No,  sir.  The  present  Commissioner  ha& 
reduced  the  amount  which  was  unpaid  when  he  came  in  some  $10,000, 
but  a  reduction  of  $10,000  on  the  $75,000  is  not  paying  the  $75,000 
itself.  There  never  was  a  time  from  the  moment  when  that  $65,000  be 
came  due  when  there  was  riot  that  amount  due. 

Q.  But  the  situation,  as  I  understand  it,  is  this:  the  outbreak  occurred 
last  fall ;  now  your  statement  is  to  the  effect  that  $25,000  a  year  was 
due  to  the  Indians  under  the  Bnmot  treaty;  that  six  mouths  after  this 
Commissioner  came  into  office  the  amount  remaining  unpaid  had  accu 
mulated  to  $75,000,  and  then  you  say  that  to  day  there  is  about  $65,000. 


22  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

Now,  does  not  tbat  compel  the  conclusion  that  the  present  Commissioner 
has  paid  the  $25,000  a  .year  since  he  came  in,  and  has  also  to  a  limited 
extent  reduced  the  indebtedness  of  the  United  States  under  the  Brunot 
treaty! — A.  I  should  s"ay  not. 

Q.  Please  explain,  then,  how  the  amount  due  the  Indians  now  can  be 
less  than  it  was  when  the  present  Commissioner  came  in,  and  yet  he 
has  failed  to  pay  them  the  money  due  under  the  treaty  since  he  came 
into  office. — A.  Well,  the  statement  from  the  office  would  show  it  ex 
actly.  You  are  asking  me  to  guess  at  something  which  can  be  proven 
definitely.  The  reports  will  show. 

Q.  But  my  proposition  does  not  require  reports.  Upon  a  given  date, 
$75,000  is  due  the  Indians ;  two  years  later  there  is  a  less  sum  than 
$75,000  found  to  be  due  them,  showing  a  decrease  of  that  indebtedness 
under  the  present  Commissioner;  hence  I  am  forced  to  the  conclusion 
that  that  $25,000  a  year  was  paid  by  this  Commissioner  as  it  accrued, 
and  that  he  also  reduced  the  amount  of  indebtedness  which  existed 
when  he  came  into  office.  What  I  want  to  get  at  is  this,  whether  or  not, 
during  the  last  two  years  and  immediately  preceding  this  outbreak,  this 
Commissioner  did  pay  the  Indians  any  money,  and,  if  so,  how  much? — 
A.  I  will  explain.  If  the  $75,000  was  due  them  in  the  spring  of  1878, 
and  it  has  been  reduced  to  $65,000,  that  shows  that  the  present  Com- 
missioner  has  not  even  paid  them  all  that  $75,000  that  was  due  when  he 
came  in,  and  has  not  paid  them  any  part  of  the  $25,000  a  year  that  has 
been  accumulating  since  ;  because  it  is  not  two  years  since  that  $75,000 
•was  due,  and  two  years  would  make  $50,000;  therefore,  if  the  amount 
was  $65,000,  there  will  $15,000  of  the  old  $75,000  still  unpaid. 

Q.  Then  your  statement  as  modified  is  this:  that  there  is  $65,000  due 
on  the  old  accumulated  debt,  and  another  $50,000  accumulated  since 
that  time.  Is  that  what  you  mean  ? — A.  Not  at  all.  There  was*  an  ac 
cumulation  of  $65,000  due  them  in  1878,  and  if  it  is  now  reduced  to 
$65,000 

Q.  [Interposing.]  That  makes  $10,000  on  the  debt  still.— A.  No.  not 
at  all ;  but  of  that  $65,000  still  unpaid.  I  don't  remember  the  exact 
sum,  but  if  we  say  that  $40,000  is  the  amount  which  has  accumulated 
under,  and  not  been  paid  by,  Commissioner  Hoyt,  then  it  would  show 
that  $25,000  also  out  of  that  $75,000  which  was  due  them  in  1878  has 
not  been  paid  ;  thus  making  the  $65,000  now  due. 

Q.  You  state  that  by  the  Brunot  treaty,  which  was  consummated  in 
1874 

The  WITNESS.  1875,  I  think.    The  agreement  was  made  in  1874. 

Q.  I  understood  you  to  say  that  there  was  due  $25,000  a  year  from 
1874.— A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  that  none  of  it  had  been  paid  for  three  years  ? — A.  For  three 
years. 

By  Mr.  HASKELL  (referring  to  a  copy  of  the  treaty) : 
Q.  The  treaty  was  made  in  1873,  and  the  first  payment  was  made  in 
1S74— '74,  '75,  '76,  '77,  four  years,  that  is  $100,000.— A.  Yes,  sir.  In  1878 
there  was  about  $75,000  due  those  Indians  and  the  balance  now  due 
them  is,  I  think,  about  $65,000;  it  has  been  accumulating  since  1878. 
If  there  is  an  accumulation  of  $40,000  since  1878  and  it  is  $65,000  now, 
that  shows  that  $25,000  of  that  $65,000  belonged  to  that  old  $75,000 
\vhich  was  due  in  1878. 

Q.  Then  my  supposition  is  correct,  that  the  present  Commissioner  has 
paid  the  Utes  since  his  term  of  office  and  has  reduced  the  balance  to 
$65.000. — A.  No,  sir;  you  cannot  possibly  make  it  clear  in  that  way. 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  23 

By  Mr.  GUNTER  : 

Q.  Has  the  present  Commissioner  paid  any  of  the  annual  installments 
due  the  Utes  since  he  came  in  I — A.  I  do  not  think  he  has  paid  a  cent 
since  he  came  in  of  money  accumulated  during  the  time  he  has  been  in 
office. 

Q.  There  were  $75,000  due  when  he  came  into  office ;  what  amount 
of  that  has  he  paid  ? — A.  About  $65,000,  I  think. 

Q.  Then  he  has  paid  money  of  the  old  indebtedness,  and  it  is  placed 
to  that  credit? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  I  suppose  it  is,  but  I  may  be  mistaken  in 
that. 

By  Mr.  W  ADD  ILL  : 

Q.  Do  you  understand  that  there  has  been  an  annual  appropriation 
of  that  $25,000  each  year  ! — A.  No,  sir  ;  I  do  not  know  that  there  has 
been  an  annual  appropriation,  but  the  money  was  in  the  Treasury,  and 
I  inquired  about  it. 

Q.  Was  it  subject  to  the  order  of  the  Commissioner? — A.  -Yes,  sir; 
that  is  what  1  understood. 

Q.  Without  an  appropriation  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  it  has  always  been  sub 
ject  to  the  order  of  the  Commissioner. 

Q.  Then  the  money  has  been  there  all  the  time,  so  that  he  could  have 
paid  these  annual  payments  as  they  matured  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 
By  Mr.  GUNTER  : 

Q.  Js  it  your  understanding  that  the  payments  that  had  been  made  by 
the  present  Commissioner  have  been  placed  as  a  credit  on  the  old  indebt 
edness  which  accrued  under  the  former  Commissioner,  Smith  ? — A.  I  do 
not  know  just  how  it  is  put  on  the  books,  but  it  ought  to  be  so;  what 
was  done  on  the  books  I  could  not  tell  without  reference  thereto. 
By  Mr.  HASKELL  : 

Q.  Why  ought  it  to  have  been  so  ? — A.  Because  I  should  say  that  a 
man  ought  to  pay  his  overdue  debts  before  he  pays  new  indebtedness. 

Q.  But  what  if  the  previous  Commissioner  should  have  withheld  the 
payment  for  cause  ?  Do  you  know  of  any  reason  why  he  did  not  pay, 
or  is  there  any  reason  why  the  present  Commissioner  has  not  paictf 
Did  you  ever  hear  anything  about  that  in  the  office? — A.  There  never 
was  a  question  while  I  was  in  the  office  as  to  anything  of  the  kind ;  thera 
never  was  a  question  as  to  what  they  could  have  paid. 

By  Mr.  WADDILL  : 

Q.  When  did  you  go  into  that  office  ? — A.  About  the  5th  of  October, 
1877,  and  I  left  about  the  25th  of  January,  1879. 
By  Mr.  GUNTER  : 

Q.  Do  you  say  that  the  present  Commissioner  has  had  at  all  times 
since  he  has  been  in  that  office  funds  at  his  command  with  which  to  pay 
the  old  indebtedness,  and  also  to  pay  the  new  indebtedness  as  it  might 
accrue  ! — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  say  that  you  know  of  no  reason  why  those  funds  were 
withheld — no  controversy  as  to  the  legality  of  the  indebtedness  ? — A. 
No,  sir;  no  controversy  as  to  the  legality  of  the  indebtedness.  I  have 
heard  the  excuse  given  that  they  feared  trouble;  that  it  was  feared  that 
the  Indians  might  buy  arms  and  ammunition,  and  that  it  was  not  wise 
to  pay  them  ;  but  that  was  before  the  present  Commissioner  came  in. 

Q.  At  the  time  you  heard  that  talk  in  the  office  about  withholding 
payment  so  as  to  prevent  them  from  buying  arms,  was  it  contemplated 
by  the  department  to  remove  the  Utes  to  the  Indian  Territory,  or  was 


24  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

that  question  mooted  ? — A.  No,  sir;  I  never  heard  that  reason  given  in 
the  office.  I  have  heard  it  given  since  I  left  the  office,  as  an  excuse  for 
not  paying  this  indebtedness.  When  I  was  in  the  office,  I  heard  the 
reason  given  once  by  the  present  Commissioner  that  he  had  nobody  whom 
he  could  send  out  there  to  pay  them — no,  I  am  wrong — I  have  heard 
that  excuse  also  since  I  left  the  office. 
By  Mr.  H  ASK  ELL  : 

Q.  Who  told  you  of  those  two  excuses  ? — A.  I  cannot  say. 

Q.  Newspaper  reports  probably? — A.  I  cannot  tell  you. 
By  Mr.  WADDILL  : 

Q.  Article  third  of  this  treaty  provides  that  "  the  United  States  agrees 
to  set  apart  and  hold,  as  a  perpetual  trust  for  the  Ute  Indians,  a  sum  of 
money  or  its  equivalent  in  bonds,  which  shall  be  sufficient  to  produce 
the  sum  of  twenty-five  thousand  dollars  per  annum ;  which  sum  of  twenty- 
five  thousand  dollars  per  annum  shall  be  disbursed  or  invested,  at  the 
discretion  of  the  President  or  as  he  may  direct,  for  the  use  and  benefit 
of  the  Ute  Indians  annually  forever."  Now  the  question  is,  whether  the 
Commissioner  had  any  order  or  direction  from  the  President  of  the  United 
States  to  pay  over  this  money  ! — A.  It  is  not  necessary.  He  represents 
the  Secretary. 

Q.  I  did  not  ask  you  whether  it  was  necessary  or  not.  I  asked  whether 
or  not  he  had  any  such  order  or  direction. — A.  Inferentially  he  has  such 
an  order,  and  pretty  much  all  his  orders  from  the  President  are  inferen 
tial.  He  is  there  to  administer  the  affairs  of  the  office,  and  for  him  not 
to  pay  the  money  is  not  doing  his  duty. 

Mr.  DEERING.  I  suppose  there  are  scarcely  any  tribes  of  Indians  who 
have  annuity  funds  to  their  credit  of  whom  it  might  not  be  said  that  the 
government  is  indebted  to  them,  but  the  question  in  my  mind  is  whether 
this  was  an  amount  which  the  government  or  the  Commissioner  was 
obliged  to  pay  at  any  stated  time,  or  whether  it  was  payable  at  discre 
tion. 

The  WITNESS.  Does  not  the  treaty  say  "  annually  1" 

Mr.  DEERING.  Yes;  it  is  an  annuity,  but  still  annuities  are  payable 
sometimes  at  discretion. 

Mr.  HASKELL.  It  provides  in  the  treaty  that  this  was  to  be  paid  at 
the  President's  discretion. 

The  WITNESS.  Yes;  but  if  you  agree  to  pay  them  an  annuity,  that  is 
to  be  paid  annually. 

Mr.  DEERiNGr.  If  in  the  discretion  of  the  President  the  money  is 
needed  by  the  Indians. 

The  WITNESS  (looking  at  the  treaty).  This  section  is  specific  in  its 
provision.  It  provides  that  >k  The  same  shall  be  disbursed  or  invested 
at  the  discretion  of  the  President,  or  as  he  may  direct,  for  the  use  and 
benefit  of  the  Ute  Indians  annually  forever." 

Mr.  HASKELL.  That  provision  of  law,  however,  is  one  which  allows 
the  President  discretion  even  to  the  extent  of  withholding  them  en 
tirely. 

The  WITNESS.  No,  sir;  it  does  not. 

Mr.  HASKELL.  I  state  it  as  a  matter  of  fact  that  that  provision  does 
permit  the  President  or  the  officer  named  to  withhold  that  money  in  his 
discretion.  Similar  language  is  used  in  regard  to  the  disbursement  of 
other  moneys  appropriated,  and  that  discretion  is  often  exercised  by 
the  Secretary  and  other  officers. 

The  WITNESS.  I  must  accept  your  statement  of  it,  but  I  should  say 
that  this  is  mandatory;  it  provides  that  the  money  "shall  be  disbursed 
or  invested  at  the  discretion  of  the  President,  or  as  he  may  direct.77 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  25 

The  CHATRMAN.  Proceed  with  your  statement  of  the  causes  which,  in 
your  judgment,  had  brought  about  the  irritation  which  has  developed 
into  this  recent  outbreak. 

The  WITNESS.  I  think  I  have  given  all  that  I  can  give  now  without 
having  my  memory  refreshed,  except  what  may  have  occurred  at  the 
agency  between  Mr.  Meeker  and  the  Indians.  Probably  he  was  unwise 
in  his  manner  of  dealing  with  them. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  that  ?— A.  I  do  not  know  anything 
about  that. 

Q.  Then  I  understand  that  you  know  no  more  than  you  have  already 
stated  j^hich  would  throw  light  upon  this  subject?— A.  No,  sir;  no 
more.  If  I  could  refresh  my  memory  by  reference  to  the  correspond 
ence,  telegrams,  and  reports,  I  might  be  able  to  add  something,  but  I 
remember  nothing  more  now. 

Q.  Do  I  understand  you  to  say  that  you  know  the  fact  that  these  In 
dians  were  dissatisfied  with  the  idea  published  by  the  department  that 
it  would  be  better  for  them  to  go  to  the  Indian  Territory  ?  Whether 
they  were  willing  or  unwilling  to  make  that  change?  Do  you  know  the 
fact?— A.  No,  sir  ;  I  do  not  know  the  fact. 

Q.  Then  you  do  not  know  as  a  matter  of  fact  whether  that  dissatis 
fied  them  or  not? — A.  I  do  not. 

Q.  Then  it  may  be  that  this  report,  which  stated  that  it  was  the  de 
sire  of  the  department  that  they  should  remove  to  the  Indian  Terri 
tory,  had  no  effect  upon  them  ? — A.  I  do  not  see  how  it  is  possible  that 
it  could  have  had  no  effect. 

Q.  Suppose  they  desired  to  go  ? — A.  Then  if  they  did  they  must  have 
been  deliberately  deceived.  Mountain  Indians,  whose  very  name  indi 
cates  that  they*  are  mountaineers,  living  in  a  climate  where,  even  in 
Southern  Colorado,  as  I  am  informed,  the  mercury  is  often  30  degrees 
below  zero,  to  be  removed  to  the  Indian  Territory  !  Of  course,  these 
Utes  are  only  nominally  southern  Indians. 

Q.  That  may  be  your  reasoning  on  the  subject,  and  it  may  be  mine, 
but  do  you  know  that  to  be  the  reasoning  of  the  Indians  ?  What  we 
want  to  get  at  is  something  which  irritated  or  influenced  the  Indians  ? — 
A.  There  were  constant  complaints  of  squatters  on  the  Ute  Reserva 
tion,  and  an  effort  was  made  at  one  time  to  put  them  off.  The  military 
started  to  put  them  off  and  then  stopped.  Then  when  this  new  treaty 
was  made  there  were  some  very  bad  features. 

Q.  But  those  "bad  features,"  did  they  dissatisfy  the  Indians?— A. 
I  should  say  that  they  must  have  convinced  the  Indians  that  they  were 
to  be  cheated. 

Q.  Did  they  agree  to  the  treaty  ? — A.  They  signed  it,  and  then  some 
of  them  put  in  a  document  which  showed  a  different  agreement  from 
Avhat  was  contained  in  the  treaty  that  they  had  signed.  The  treaty 
simply  made  them  give  up  1,800,000  acres  of  land  for  700,000  acres  in 
exchange  ;  whereas  the  agreement  was  that  they  should  be  paid  what  was 
due  them  in  money  previously ;  and  they  were  also  to  be  paid  fairly  for 
their  lands,  and  a  commission  was  to  be  appointed  to  appraise  the  value  of 
the  lands.  I  should  say  that  that  would  be  an  irritating  cause.  The  re 
port  of  Lieutenant  McCauley,  which  I  saw,  told  of  the  transactions,  and 
showed  that  the  Indians  felt  aggrieved,  and  that  they  made  constant 
complaint.  They  said  to  anybody  who  went  there  to  trade  with  them, 
"  We  won't  deal  with  you ;  you  have  not  paid  us  according  to  your 
agreement."  They  looked  upon  anybody  that  came  there  to  trade  with 
them  as  trying  to  cheat  them. 


26  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

By  Mr.  HASKELL  : 

Q.  This  treaty  was  made  directly  with  tbe  Southern  CTtes  ?— A.  The 
others  had  to  agree  to  it. 

Q.  Bat  the  lands  in  question  were  occupied  by  the  Southern  Utes  ? — 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  it  was  the  Southern  Utes  that,  in  your  judgment,  were  dis 
gruntled  ? — A.  No,  sir ;  all  Utes. 

Q.  But  the  Southern  have  the  greatest  cause  to  be  dissatisfied? — A. 
It  was  the  Southern  Utes  that  were  immediately  affected. 

Q.  Now,  where  did  this  outbreak  occur! — A.  At  the  White  Eiver 
Agency. 

Q.  Among  the  Northern  Utes  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Then  those  Utes  who  were  the  least  affected  by  this  treaty,  in 
your  judgment,  are  the  ones  who  made  this  outbreak,  while  those  most 
affected  remain  peaceful;  is  that  the  fact  If — A.  Secretary  Schurz  says 
in  a  recent  communication  to  the  public,  that  "  the  Indians  seem  to 
know  their  rights  pretty  well,"  and  I  think  there  is  no  doubt  that  the 
Northern  Utes  knew  of  this  transaction  with  the  Southern  Utes  and 
were  just  as  much  afraid  of  being  swindled. 

Q.  Ouray  was  the  chief  of  the  Uncornpahgre  Utes,  arid  they  were 
the  Indians  directly  affected  by  the  provisions  of  this  treaty  ? — A.  The 
Southern  Utes  were  the  ones,  not  the  Uncompahgres. 

Q.  And  the  Southern  Utes  have  been  peaceable  all  through  this 
trouble,  have  they  not  ? — A.  They  have  been  peaceable  through  this 
trouble,  but  they  have  been  very  much  excited  within  the  last  two  years, 
and  have  even  shown  some  animosity  to  the  agent,  and  when  the  sol 
diers  came  there  it  looked  doubtful  whether  there  would  not  be  trouble 
with  them. 

Q.  Have  there  been  any  soldiers  sent  to  the  Southern  Utes  ? — A. 
Yes,  sir  ;  soldiers  went  there  for  a  particular  purpose,  not  in  connection 
with  this  trouble,  but  previously.  The  Uncompahgre  Utes  have  been 
irritated  by  squatters  in  the  neighborhood  of  the  San  Juan  mines. 

Q.  But  they  are  peaceable  ? — A.  They  are  peaceable. 

Q.  And  the  Indians  who  have  committed  these  depredations  are  the 
White  River  Utes  whose  home  is  remote  from  the  region  affected  by 
this  treaty  of  which  you  speak,  and  have  less  cause  of  grievance  than 
those  who  remain  at  peace? — A.  No,  sir  ;  they  have  not  less  cause  be 
cause  of  the  Brunot  treaty  stipulations. 

Q.  But  they  have  less  cause  of  grievance  so  far  as  this  last  transac 
tion  of  which  you  have  spoken  is  concerned  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  yet  it  is  by  the  Northern  Utes  that  these  outrages  have  been 
perpetrated  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  At  what  time  did  you  enter  upon  your  employment  in  the  Indian 
Office? — A.  I  went  there  about  the  5th  of  September,  1877.  I  usually 
got  there  about  a  quarter  past  eight  in  the  morning  and  staid  until  half 
past  eleven  or  twelve  o'clock  at  night  for  the  first  five  months  ;  the  sec 
ond  five  months  I  averaged  about  two  hours  a  day  less  than  that. 

Q.  How  long  were  you  in  the  service  of  the  government  in  that  office  ? 
— A.  I  was  there  until  the  25th  of  January  last,  sixteen  months. 

Q.  Did  you  resign  your  place? — A.  I  did. 

Q.  Were  you  ever  charged  with  any  neglect  of  duty,  or  with  any  fault, 
by  any  of  the  officers  of  the  government? — A.  Never  with  any  neglect 
of  duty. 

Q.  There  were  no  charges  made? — A.  Yres,  sir  ;  there  was  a  false 
charge  made  by  Commissioner  Hayt. 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  27 

Q.  Were  you  ever  investigated  in  reference  to  your  service  there  ? — 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Your  resignation,  then,  was  entirely  pleasant,  and  you  tendered  it 
because  you  had  served  as  long  as  you  chose ;  is  that  the  fact  ? — A.  In 
reply  to  that  question  I  will  read  my  letter  of  resignation  addressed  to 
Secretary  Schurz,  and  his  reply. 

WASHINGTON,  D.  C.,  January  21,  1879. 
Hon.  C.  SCHURZ, 

/Secretary  interior  Department : 

SIR:  I  have  the  honor  to  respectfully  invite  your  attention  and  reply  to  the  follow 
ing  statement  and  conclusion.  When  I  assumed  the  duties  of  chief  clerk  of  the  Indian 
Office  I  did  so  with  the  distinct  understanding  that  I  Avas  not  expected  to  confine  my 
self  to  purely  clerical  duties.  In  accordance  with  such  understanding  I  have  devoted 
myself  to  the  service  early  and  late,  and  have  endeavored  to  render  assistance  in  every 
way  that  my  previous  experience  in  the  Indian  service  and  elsewhere  made  it  possible 
fo/me  to  do.  During  my  occupancy  of  the  chief  clerkship  I  have  felfc  that  I  have  en 
joyed  your  confidence  as  well  as  that  of  the  honorable  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs. 
Differences  of  opinion  have  arisen,  however,  between  the  Commissioner  and  myself, 
which  have  brought  about  a  severance  of  those  relations  which  are  necessary  to  render 
the  position  of  chief  clerk  desirable,  and  I  feel  called  upon  to  carry  out  a  purpose  which 
for  other  reasons  I  have  long  contemplated.  Before  doing  so,  I  desire  to  thank  you  for 
the  uniform  courtesy  and  kindness  which  have  been  shown  me,  and  to  express  my  ap 
preciation  of  your  efforts  and  success  in  reforming  the  Indian  service.  Thanking  you 
for  the  leave  of  absence  which  was  granted  me  in  accordance  with  my  request  on  the 
17th  instant,  I  now  beg  to  tender  my  resignation  of  the  position  of  chief  clerk  of  the 
Indian  Office,  to  take  effect  on  the  25th  instant. 

Very  respectfully,  yours, 

WILLIAM  M.  LEEDS. 
Mr.  Schurz's  reply  is  as  follows : 

WASHINGTON,  January  22,  1879. 

DEAR  SIR:  I  am  in  receipt  of  your  letter  of  the  2tst  instant  stating  that  in  view  of 
differences  of  opinion  that  have  arisen  between  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs 
and  yourself  which  render  it  impracticable  to  maintain  such  relations  as  make  the 
position  of  chief  clerk  desirable,  and  further,  that  you  feel  called  upon  for  other  rea 
sons  to  carry  out  a  purpose  long  contemplated,  and  therefore  tender  your  resignation 
to  take  effect  the  25th  instant.  Your  resignation  is  accepted  to  take  effect  as  ten 
dered.  Your  devotion  to  duty  and  efforts  to  assist  in  purifying  the  Indian  service 
have  not  been  unnoticed  by  me,  and  from  my  knowledge  of  the  case  it  gives  me 
pleasure  to  say  that  the  reasons  existing  for  severing  your  connection  with  the  Indian 
Office  do  not  in  any  manner  affect  the  respect  and  confidence  to  which  your  character 
and  integrity  are  entitled. 

You  have  ray  best  wishes  for  your  future  success. 
Very  respectfully, 

C.  SCHURZ. 

Q.  The  relations  between  you  and  the  officers  of  the  department  were 
pleasant  and  amicable,  I  suppose? — A.  Between  me  and  the  officers  of 
the  Interior  Department  they  were  perfectly  so.  Between  rue  and  the 
Commissioner  of  Indian- Affairs  at  the  time  I  left — do  you  wish  me  to 
explain? 

Q.  No ;  I  only  ask  you  whether  your  relations  at  the  time  you  left 
the  office  were  pleasant  ? — A.  My  relations  with  the  Interior  Depart 
ment  were  entirely  so. 

Q.  And  your  relations  with  the  Commissioner,  how  were  they? — A. 
Well,  there  was  no  definite  outbreak  until  about  the  time  I  left— within 
three  or  four  days  of  my  resignation.  That  there  was  a  thorough  dis 
gust  in  my  mind  for  the  Indian  Commissioner  for  a  long  time,  there  is 
no  doubt. 

Q.  Then,  at  the  time  you  left,  your  relations  with  the  Commissioner 
were  not  pleasant;  you  felt  that  you  had  causes  to  feel  aggrieved  ? — A. 
I  did.  I  felt  insulted,  traduced,  and  blackened,  as  a  hundred  other  men 


28  UTE   INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

have  been,  as  almost  everybody  else  has  been  that  has  had  anything  to 
do  with  the  office  since  I  went  there. 

Q.  You  felt  that  you  had  causes  of  grievance  and  were  not  treated 
fairly? — A.  I  felt  that  I  was  wantonly  insulted.  I  was  charged  in  such 
a  way  that  from  the  moment  the  charge  was  made  unless  it  was  backed 
out  of  I  must  resign. 

Q.  Your  relations  with  the  Commissioner  have  continued  about  the 
same  since  ? — A.  No,  sir ;  not  by  any  means.  My  relations  with  the 
Commissioner  have  changed  since  that.  When  I  went  out  of  the  office 
I  told  Mr.  Schurz  that  I  believed  the  Commissioner  meant  to  be  honest ; 
that  I  attributed  anything  wrong  that  occurred  there  to  bad  judgment. 
It  has  entirely  changed  since.  I  have  come  to  the  conclusion  since  that 
he  is  a  rascal. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  You  have  a  right  to  say  whether  this  ill  feeling  has 
in  the  slightest  degree  affected  your  testimony. 

The  WITNESS.  Not  in  the  slightest.  All  I  say,  or  wish  to  say,  of  the 
Commissioner 

The  CHAIRMAN.  You  are  not  asked  any  opinion  in  regard  to  the  Com 
missioner,  because  he  is  not  under  investigation.  You  were  asked  if 
there  was  any  bad  feeling  between  you  and  the  Commissioner,  and  you 
said  there  was.  Now,  you  are  asked  whether  that  has  at  all  affected 
your  evidence  here  ? 

The  WITNESS.  No,  sir  ;  not  at  all ;  not  in  the  slightest  degree. 
By  Mr.  GUNTER  : 

Q.  As  1  understand,  you  give  as  the  causes  of  this  outbreak,  first,  the 
refusal  to  sell  them  arms  at  the  agency,  on  account  of  which  refusal 
they  were  dissatisfied  and  left  the  reservation  and  went  off  to  purchase 
arms  elsewhere ;  second  that  the  government  or  the  Commissioner  failed 
to  pay  them  the  moneys  due  them  ;  third,  that  in  the  last  treaty  made 
with  them  they  were  rather  coerced,  or  they  were  deceived,  and  that 
that  created  additional  dissatisfaction.  Are  those  all  the  causes  of  the 
dissatisfaction  which  you  have  stated! — A.  No,  sir;  I  should  say  also 
the  trouble  at  Rawlins  and  the  delay  in  getting  supplies  when  they  were 
in  a  starving  condition  ;  and  also,  the  publication  of  the  notice  given  in 
the  Commissioner's  report  that  he  proposed  their  removal  to  the  Indian 
Territory  were  good  causes  of  complaint. 

Q.  Those  now  repeated  by  you  and  myself  are  about  the  only  causes 
that  you  can  call  to  mind  for  the  outbreak  ? — A.  All  that  I  can  recall  at 
the  present  time. 

Q.  You  stated  substantially  that  the  Southern  Utes  were  forced  into 
a  treaty  whereby  they  exchanged  1,800,000  acres  of  land  for  700,000 
acres,  and  were  to  be  paid  for  the  laud,  and  were  not  so  paid  ? — A.  No, 
sir;  I  did  not  say  that.  I  said  that  at  the  time  they  agreed  to  this  ex 
change  it  was  on  condition  that  they  should  be  paid  the  money  that  was 
due  them,  and  that  there  should  be  a  commissioner  appointed  to  appraise 
the  value  of  their  laud,  and  that  they  should  receive  a  fair  price  for  their 
land,  whereas  when  the  formal  agreement  was  made  some  time  later 
on 

Q.  What  agreement  was  that  ? — A.  The  first  commissioners  appointed 
were  Mr.  Stickney  (Mr.  Morrill  afterwards  took  his  place),  General 
Hatch,  and  Mr.  McFarland;  and  the  payment  for  the  lands  and  the 
agreement  to  pay  them  what  was  due  them  was  left  out,  and  it  merely 
appeared  as  an  exchange. 

Q.  That  was  a  difference  of  1,100,000  acres?— A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  It  was  that  difference  for  which  they  were  to  be  paid  I — A.  Yes, 
sir ;  a  fair  price. 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  29 

Q.  And  you  say  they  were  not  ? — A.  No  ;  I  do  not  say  so.  The  Com 
missioner  did  recommend  in  his  report  that  they  should  be  paid  for 
them. 

Q.  But  as  a  matter  of  fact,  when  the  negotiation  came  to  be  concluded 
by  this  subsequent  commission  of  which  you  speak,  did  the  Indians  get 
paid  for  this  1.100,000  acres  of  land!— A.  The  thing  has  not  been  done 
so  far. 

By  Mr.  POEHLEB  : 

Q.  Have  you  any  information  in  regard  to  why  the  money  was  with 
held  from  those  Indians  more  than  what  you  have  stated,  except  what  you 
have  understood  from  hearsay,  since  you  have  been  out  of  the  office? — 
A.  Yes  ;  I  could  give  a  substantial  reason  why  it  was  withheld.     It  was 
due  to  inattention  to  business. 

Q.  Have  you  any  other  reason  to  give? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Have  those  Indians  ceded  those  1,100,000  acres  to  the  United  States, 
or  is  it  turned  over  to  the  United  States,  or  has  the  contract  been  com 
pleted  yet? — A.  No,  sir;  I  do  not  think  it  has  ever  been  carried  into 
effect.  That  is  something  that  I  do  not  know  about,  nor  what  action 
was  taken  on  the  report.  I  have  not  kept  the  run  of  the  report  of  the 
commission. 

By  Mr.  HASKELL  : 

Q.  Then  they  have  not  been  cheated  out  of  the  lands  ? — A.  I  only 
speak  of  the  agreement ;  I  do  not  know  what  Congress  did  with  the 
commission's  report. 

By  Mr.  GUNTER  : 

Q.  The  agreement  has  never  been  carried  into  effect? — A.  I  do  not 
know. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Was  it  ever  consummated  ?— -A.  I  do  not  know. 
By  Mr.  DEERING  : 

Q.  This  negotiation  in  regard  to  the  exchange  of  a  certain  number  of 
acres  of  land  for  another  certain  number  of  acres  of  land ;  by  whom 
was  that  transfer  arranged  ? — A.  Messrs.  Mori-ill  and  McFarland,  and 
General  Hatch. 

Q.  Then  it  was  under  the  commission  of  1878? — A.  They  made  the 
agreement. 

Q.  Did  they  ever  make  an  official  report  of  their  transaction  ? — A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  is  that  report  now  ;  is  it  in  the  Commissioner's  office? — A. 
I  suppose  it  must  be  there.  There  is  one  thing  in  connection  with  that 
business  which  might  be  stated.  That  commission  was  appointed  to 
do  a  certain  duty,  and  they  did  not  undertake  the  duty  they  were  ap 
pointed  for.  They  were  appointed  to  negotiate  with  the  Ute  Indians  for 
their  consolidation  on  or  near  White  Biver.  At  the  time  arrangements 
were  being  made  for  the  commission  to  go  out  on  that  business  I  had 
conferences  with  them  and  with  the  Secretary.  The  Secretary  seemed 
to  agree  with  the  idea  that  I  expressed,  that  they  should  be  consoli 
dated  on  the  Uiutah  Valley  Agency,  on  the  White  lliver;  but  when  Mr. 
Hayt  got  back  to  his  office  (he  was  gone  some  time,  I  don't  remember 
where)  he  immediately  objected  to  their  being  moved  to  White  Eiver, 
and  urged  the  commission  by  all  means  to  get  them  to  agree,  if  possi 
ble,  to  go  to  the  Indian  Territory  j  and  so  far  as  I  had  any  knowledge 


30  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

of  it  the  commission  went  out  with  that  in  their  minds,  not  to  carry 
out  the  law,  but  to  make  some  other  arrangement. 

By  Mr.  POUND  : 

Q.  What  was  the  relative  value  of  those  two  tracts  of  land,  700,000 
and  1,800,000?  How  do  they  differ  as  to  fitness  for  the  Indians,  and 
in  relative  value?— A.  I  could  not  tell  that.  There  was  considered  to 
be  a  difference ;  there  had  been  an  agreement  made  to  have  a  commis 
sion  appointed  to  appraise  the  lands  and  pay  the  Utes  their  value;  but 
when  it  was  left  out  of  the  formal  agreement  some  of  the  Indians  would 
not  sign  because  it  was  left  out,  and  a  supplemental  paper  was  for 
warded  to  the  Indian  Office  stating  that,  and  the  Commissioner  recom 
mended  they  should  be  paid  a  fair  price  for  their  land. 

Q.  Of  course  you  are  aware  of  the  fact  that  the  700,000  acres  of  land 
may  be  vastly  more  valuable  than  the  1,800,000  acres  of  land;  now, 
have  you  any  knowledge  of  the  value  of  those  lands  respectively  ? — A. 
It  would  be  impossible.  White  men  do  not  give  anything  more  to  the 
Indians  than  they  get,  in  such  cases. 

By  Mr.  AINSLEE  : 

Q.  What  percentage  of  their  subsistence  have  they  been  compelled 
to  provide  for  themselves  by  hunting  ? — A.  Well,  the  Utes,  generally, 
about  sixty-six  per  cent.;  the  White  Itiver  Utes  about  fifty  per  cent. 

By  Mr.  HASKELL  : 

Q.  Has  this  treaty  or  transaction  in  regard  to  the  exchange  of  this 
1,800,000  acres  for  the  700,000  acres,  and  the  other  matters  you  have  men 
tioned,  ever  been  consummated? — A.  If  it  has  been  acted  upon  it  has 
been  since  I  left  the  office. 

Q.  So  that,  as  a  matter  of  fact,  there  has  been  no  exchange  of 
1,800,000  acres  for  700,000;  it  has  been  simply  talked  about  ?— A. 
Simply  talked  about;  and  the  only  cause  of  grievance  that  the  Indians 
could  have  in  regard  to  that  would  be  that  there  was  an  obvious  inten 
tion  to  cheat  them. 

Q.  The  provision  that  they  should  be  paid  so  much  money  for  their 
land  has  never  actually  become  an  accrued  liability  on  the  part  of  the 
government;  it  has  simply  been  talked  about? — A.  Simply  talked 
about. 

Q.  That  is,  in  case  they  did  such  and  such  things  they  were  to  get  so 
much  of  their  own  money,  and  in  case  certain  other  things  were  done 
they  were  to  make  this  exchange  of  lands  ? — A.  The  Indians  were  bound 
by  the  agreement,  if  the  government  chose  to  hold  them  to  it. 

Q.  Is  it  the  fact  about  that  treaty  that  it  is  non-perfected  and  incom 
plete? — A.  If  it  has  been  completed,  it  is  since  I  left  the  office. 

By  Mr.  GUNTER: 

Q.  Was  the  payment  of  the  money  which  was  already  due  them  pre 
vious  to  this  treaty  that  you  speak  of  made  a  part  of  the  consideration 
for  the  exchange  of  lands? — A.  Yes,  sir,  in  the  first  agreement  it  was  ; 
but  not  in  the  formal  agreement  which  they  signed  some  months  after. 
It  was  left  out  of  that,  and  then  some  of  the  Indiana  complained.  I 
should  think  it  would  have  been  an  additional  cause  of  grievance  that 
the  commission  went  there  to  treat  with  the  Indians,  proposing  to  them 
to  pay  certain  moneys  already  due  them  on  condition  that  they  agreed 
to  certain  things,  and  refusing  to  pay  if  they  did  not  agree. 

By  Mr.  WADDILL  : 
Q.  Was  that  the  McFarland  commission  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  31 

Q.  Then  that  was  after  the  agreement  whereby  the  Indians  were  to 
exchange  1,800,000  acres  for  700,000  of  land? — A.  This  was  in  getting 
them  to  agree  to  that. 

Q.  I  understood  you  to  state  a  while  ago  that  there  was  a  treaty  by 
which  that  result  was  obtained  ? — A.  An  agreement — I  don't  know  that 
it  was  ever  consummated. 

Q.  You  say  that  the  Indians  were  bound  by  their  agreement  ? — A. 
Yes,  sir,  they  were  bound. 

Q.  And  was  there  not  some  party  representing  the  United  States  who 
agreed  to  that  also?— A.  Yes;  but  until  Congress  ratified  it  it  would 
not  have  any  force. 

Q.  And  that  Congress  never  did,  I  understand  ? — A.  If  it  has  been 
done,  it  has  been  done  since  I  left  the  office.  I  have  not  kept  tha  run 
of  it. 

Q.  Can  you  tell  about  when  that  agreement  was  made? — A.  I  cannot; 
it  shows  for  itself.  I  think  they  signed  the  final  agreement  some  time 
in  October,  1878,  and  I  think  they  signed  this  preliminary  agreement 
some  time  in  August. 

Q.  Then  do  I  understand  you  to  say,  as  a  matter  of  fact,  that  the 
Indians  do  still  hold  those  1,800,000  acres?— A.  That  I  don't  know;  I 
simply  have  the  impression  that  some  of  them  have  moved,  but  I  don't 
know.  I  think  they  have  their  title  to  it  yet,  though  some  of  them  may 
have  moved  off. 

Q.  I  understood  you  to  say  a  while  ago  that  that  agreement  to  exchange 
1,800,000  acres  for  700,000  acres  was  made,  that  the  Indians  were  to  be 
paid  for  that  1,100,000  acres  excess,  and  that  it  was  the  payment  for 
that  excess  that  was  left  out  of  the  McFarland  agreement ;  is  that  what 
you  said? — A.  They  were  to  be  paid  a  fair  price  for  their  lands.  The 
agreement  did  not  specify  that  it  was  for  the  balance  of  1,100,000  acres, 
but  they  were  to  be  paid  a  fair  price  for  their  lands ;  and  having  agreed 
to  exchange  700,000  acres  for  1,800,000  acres,  a  commission  was  to  be 
appointed  to  agree  upon  the  balance  that  they  were  to  be  paid.  That 
was  the  preliminary  agreement  which  the  Utes  made,  but  afterwards, 
when  they  signed  the  final  agreement,  that  was  left  out. 

Q.  That  was  arranged  by  a  subsequent  commission,  was  it  not  ? — A. 
No,  sir;  the  same  commission. 

Q.  And  you  say  that  in  order  to  secure  the  Indians7  consent  they  used 
as  a  lever  the  withholding  of  the  payment  of  what  was  already  due  the 
Indians? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Annuities  due  ander  former  treaties  ? — A.  Moneys  due  under  this 
Brunot  treaty,  and  were  withheld  by  express  orders. 

Q.  And  the  Indians  did  agree  then  with  that  commission  at  this  sub 
sequent  time  to  make  the  exchange  without  payment  for  their  lands,  and 
they  were  brought  to  that  point  by  threats  to  withhold  this  money 
already  due  them;  is  that  it? — A.  No,  sir.  The  first  agreement  was 
that  the  money  already  due  them  should  be  paid,  and  that  they  should 
have  a  fair  price  for  their  lands.  That  was  preliminary. 

Q.  That  agreement  was  signed  by  the  Indians,  was  it  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir.  Then  when  the  final  agreement  was  made  that  provision  was  .eft 
out,  so  that  the  transaction  appeared  to  be  a  mere  exchange  of  1,800,000 
acres  for  700,000  acres. 

Q.  And  they  used  as  an  influence  with  the  Indians  to  get  them  to 
sign  that  final  agreement  the  withholding  of  moneys  already  due  them  ? — 
A.  No,  sir ;  to  get  them  to  sign  the  first  papers.  The  clerk  of  the  com 
mission,  I  think,  was  directed  not  to  pay  the  Indians  unless  they  would 
agree  to  this.  It  is  in  the  report. 


32  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

By  Mr.  ERRETT  : 

Q.  But  this  final  agreement  was  not  consummated.  Some  of  the  Utes, 
you  say,  refused  to  sign  because  of  the  leaving  out  of  that  agreement  to 
pay  them. — A.  Some  of  them  did  ;  and  there  was  forwarded  to  Wash 
ington  a  supplemental  paper  from  which  the  Commissioner  undoubtedly 
saw  that  there  was  a  bargain  which  ought  to  be  carried  out,  and  he 
recommended  in  his  report  that  the  Indians  should  be  paid  a  fair  price. 

By  Mr.  WADDILL  : 

Q.  You  say  the  paper  was  forwarded — forwarded  by  the  Indians? — 
A.  By  the  commission,  I  think.  It  was  sent  in  to  the  Commissioner 
afterwards. 

Q.  As  a  protest? — A.  No  ;  not  as  a  protest. 

Q.  What  was  it?  Did  it  set  forth  their  grievances  and  the  reasons 
why  they  would  not  sign  ?— A.  I  have  not  seen  the  paper  itself,  and 
cannot  say. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN: 

Q.  You  have  suggested  that  there  are  certain  papers  that  would  throw 
light  upon  this  question,  or  upon  your  evidence  here.  Can  you  now 
describe  them  so  that  we  can  obtain  them  for  the  use  of  the  committee? — 
A.  I  refer  you  to  the  monthly  reports  of  the  agents  at  the  White  Kiver 
Agency,  going  as  far  back  as  the  1st  of  October,  1877  ;  the  issue  re- 
ports  and  the  correspondence  and  telegrams  between  the  agency  and 
the  office  here,  and  the  circulars  that  were  issued  ;  also  the  supply  re 
ports  and  the  correspondence  and  dispatches  between  the  station-master 
and  others  at  Rawlins  and  the  office  in  Washington. 

Adjourned. 


WASHINGTON,  January  19,  1880. 

E.  A.  HAYT,  Commissioner  of  Indian  affairs,  sworn  and  examined. 
By  Mr.  HASKELL  : 

Question.  When  did  you  first  take  charge  of  the  office  as  Commis 
sioner  of  Indian  Affairs? — Answer.  On  the  29th  day  of  September,  1877. 

Q.  I  believe  it  has  been  stated  before  the  committee  by  two  witnesses 
that  between,  say,  October  1,  1877,  or  about  the  time  when  you  took 
charge  of  the  Indian  Office,  and  the  1st  of  April,  1878,  a  large  amount 
of  supplies  had  accumulated  at  Fort  Kawlins,  the  accumulation  having 
taken  place  prior  to  this  time,  and  they  have  stated  that,  to  the  best  of 
their  knowledge  and  belief,  those  supplies  were  not  distributed,  nor 
were  any  supplies  furnished  to  the  Utes  from  that  time  up  to  April  1, 
1878,  leaving  the  Utes  all  that  time  without  food  and  without  the  sup 
plies  that  properly  belonged  to  them.  I  wish  that  you  would  make  a 
statement  of  the  facts  in  regard  to  that. — A.  With  the  permission  of  the 
committee,  I  will  answer  that  question  by  submitting  a  statement  taken 
in  substance  from  the  records  of  the  office : 

Commissioner  J.  Q.  Smith  left  the  Indian  Office  on  the  27th  of  Sep 
tember,  1877.  At  that  time  was  lying  at  Kawlins,  Wyo.,  10,00(1  pounds 
of  flour  and  15,000  pounds  of  oats,  which  had  been  purchased  in  June, 
1877,  for  the  White  Eiver  Agency ;  also  the  annuity  goods  for  the  White 
River  Utes,  which  had  been  lying  there  since  the  fall  of  1876,  owing  to 
default  of  transportation  contractor  D.  J.  McCaun,  whose  case,  on  the 
5th  of  June,  1877,  had  been  reported  to  the  Interior  Department,  to  be 
referred  to  the  Department  of  Justice.  On  September  24,  1877.  Cap- 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  33 

tain  Nash  had  reported  the  bill  of  the  Union  Pacific  Railroad  to  be 
$650  for  storage  of  the  oats  and  flour  and  $837  for  freight  charges  and 
storage  of  annuity  goods,  and  until  those  charges  had  been  paid  the 
Union  Pacific  Kailroad  refused  to  deliver  the  goods. 

This  was  all  the  flour  which  had  been  purchased  for  White  River,  no 
bid  having  been  received  at  the  annual  lettings  in  the  preceding  spring 
for  the  100,000  pounds  of  flour  asked  for  to  supply  the  White  River 
Agency  for  the  fiscal  year  1877-78. 

October  7, 1877. — Agent  Danford  reported  that  no  supplies  had  arrived 
and  Indians  were  impatient  and  suffering. 

October  18. — The  office,  through  Interior  Department,  requested  the 
Department  of  Justice  to  replevin  the  annuity  goods  at  Rawlins. 
(Letter  signed  by  E.  A.  Hayt.) 

October  29. — Agent  reported  that  annuity  goods,  coffee,  sugar,  &c., 
for  1877-778  had  arrived  safely,  but  no  flour  had  come. 

November  10.— Com  missioner  Hayt  urged  on  the  Department  of  Interior 
the  necessity  of  expedition  on  the  part  of  the  Department  of  Justice  in 
the  replevin  suit  for  the  annuity  goods  and  supplies. 

November  13. — Chief  Douglass  arrived  at  Rawlins  and  telegraphed  office 
asking  that  flour  and  tobacco  be  issued  his  band  of  about  40 D  at  that 
place,  as  snow  was  too  deep  to  transport  it  to  agency. 

I  may  say  here  that  the  White  River  Agency  is  situated  in  the  mount 
ains,  nearly  200  miles  to  the  south  of  Rawlins,  and  for  the  last  60  miles  of 
the  route  it  is  almost  impossible  to  transport  merchandise,  owing  to  the 
hilly  character  of  the  country  and  the  snow,  so  that  contractors  will  not 
undertake  after  the  loth  of  October  to  transport  goods  to  the  agency, 
and  goods  which  are  not  delivered  there  before  that  time  have  to  lie 
over  until  the  following  year.  That  is  the  reason  that  these  supplies 
were  left  over  from  the  previous  year.  I  wish  to  relieve  Commissioner 
Smith  from  any  imputation  which  might  be  cast  upon  him  in  conse 
quence  of  that  fact.  The  appropriation  bill  was  passed  very  late  in  the 
previous  session,  so  that  the  goods  were  not  bought  until  late  in  August, 
and  it  was  not  possible  to  get  them  in  season  to  have  them  transported 
to  the  agency  that  year. 

November  14. — E.  A.  Hayt  telegraphed  (I  state  that  fact  because  it  is 
claimed  that  I  have  been  away  from  the  office  a  good  deal.  I  will  ac 
count  for  the  time  that  I  have  been  away,  and  will  make  it  very  clear 
that  the  allegation  that  owing  to  my  being  away  from  the  office  these 
matters  were  neglected  is  utterly  untrue)  Captain  Nash  that  district 
attorney  had  procured  release  of  supplies  held  for  charges,  and  asked 
him  (Nash)  to  receive  them,  and  stated  that  400  starving  Utes  were 
waiting  there  for  them.* 

November  15. — Captain  Nash  replied  that  the  only  provisions  there 
were  flour,  which  was  held  for  storage — charges  being  $740 — and  that 
he  could  not  be  spared  to  go  to  Rawlins. 

He  was  at  Cheyenne,  but  he  was  the  Army  officer  there  through  whom 
we  had  done  business  when  the  Indians  were  in  that  vicinity. 

November  16.— E.  A.  Hayt  telegraphed  Nash:  "  Storage  charge  on  flour 
exorbitant.  Send  reliable  man  to  Rawlins  immediately  to  receive  goods 
and  flour.  Indians  are  suffering  for  food." 

November  17. — Nash  replied;  "Attorney  has  been  busy  and  has  not  re- 
plevined  goods.  Who  will  receipt  for  stores  turned  over  to  Indians?77 

November  17. — Office  telegram  (signed  by  C.  W.  Holcombe)  to  Nash  : 
"  Have  Chief  Douglass  receipt  for  issues,  which  should  be  only  sufficient 
to  last  to  agency." 

H.  Mis.  38- — 3 


34  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

November  17. — Telegram  (E.  A.  Hayt  per  Leeds)  to  District  Attorney 
Johnson  asking,  "  What  has  been  done  about  goods  at  Eawlins  f 

November  17. — Nash  telegraphed  that  Chief  Jack  says  there  is  no  flour 
either  at  Eawlins  or  agency,  that  there  are  onlyblankets  at  Eawlins,  and 
that  rations  should  be  purchased  for  them. 

November  19. — Holcornb  telegraphed  Douglass :  "  Party  has  been 
sent  to  deliver  sufficient  goods  to  last  to  your  agency,  and  to  arrange 
for  transporting  balance." 

I  suppose  that  telegram  was  written  under  the  supposition  that  it 
was  possible  to  do  it  by  some  means. 

November  20. — E.  A.  Hayt  telegraphed  Nash  to  purchase  provisions 
enough  for  Utes  to  last  one  week,  and  to  take  Douglass's  receipt  for  them, 
and  asked  if  Indians  could  be  accommodated  in  vicinity  of  Fort  Steele. 
I  presumed  then  that  they  would  have  to  stay  there  for  the  winter, 
and  tor  that  reason  I  asked  that  they  should  be  accommodated  at  Fort 
Steele,  intending  to  feed  them  there,  and  on  some  accounts  I  was  very 
glad  to  undertake  to  feed  them  there.  However,  these  Indians,  as  soon 
as  they  got  something  to  eat,  went  off  on  a  hunt  on  the  Sweetwater  j  they 
did  not  want  to  stay  at  the  fort. 

November  '23. — War  Department  offered  to  issue  supplies  to  Indians 
at  Eawlins,  provided  Indian  Office  could  not,  and  stated  that  goods  had 
just  been  repleviued. 

November  23. — Captain  Nash  telegraphed  that  350  Indians  were  at 
Eawlins  in  bad  humor  and  wanted  goods  issued  there  ;  that  he  had  in 
structed  his  agent  to  inquire  into  thejr  absolute  necessities  ;  and  asked 
for  instructions  as  to  issuing  of  goods. 

November  23. — Captain  Nash  reported  by  letter  that  on  that  day  Utes 
would  have  issued  to  them  at  Eawlins  one  week's  rations  ;  that  replev- 
ined  goods  could  not  be  kept  at  Eawlins  without  expensive  storage,  and 
suggested  that  military  commissary  at  military  post  could  act  as  agent 
for  Indian  Office  in  distributing  supplies  to  Indians  during  the  winter. 

November  24. — E.  A.  Hayt  telegraphed  Nash  to  give  Indians  another 
week's  rations  and  such  blankets,  clothing,  and  dry  goods  as  they  needed, 
and  to  find  storage  for  the  remainder  of  the  goods. 

November  23. — There  was  purchased,  for  two  week's  rations  for  260 
Indians,  3,600  pounds  flour,  2,380  pounds  beef,  180  pounds  coffee,  and 
100  pounds  beans,  for  which  Douglass  receipted.  The  Indians  then  went 
off  on  a  hunt,  which  was  very  successful. 

On  the  1st  of  December,  owing  to  the  failure  of  the  Senate  to  confirm 
my  nomination,  I  ceased  to  be  Commissioner  and  left  the  office,  and  was 
away  until  the  17th  of  December,  1877.  The  Assistant  Secretary,  Mr. 
1  Bell,  was  Acting  Commissioner  during  that  time.  Of  course,  that  ac 
counts  for  my  being  away  from  the  office  for  seventeen  days.  I  could 
not  have  been  there  under  any  circumstances. 

December  13. — A.  Bell  (Acting  Commissioner)  telegraphed  Dan  forth 
that  Governor  Eoutt  feared  outbreak  of  his  Indians,  and  directed  that 
report  be  made  as  to  whereabouts  of  Indians  and  the  practicability  of 
their  returning  to  their  agency. 

December  17. — E.  A.  Hayt  wrote  Vandever  to  go  to  Eawlins  and  re 
port  on  feasibility  of  removing  Indians  to  reserve  or  of  feeding  them  at 
Fort  Steele. 

December  24. — Dauforth  replied  that  his  Indians  were  off  reserve 
because  they  were  angry  at  the  non-arrival  of  goods ;  that  they  were 
near  Eawlius  and  on  the  Sweetwater,  and  that  the  snow  need  not  pre 
vent  their  return  j  that  there  was  plenty  of  sugar,  coffee,  and  beef  at  the 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  35 

agency,  but  no  flour;  and  that  he  had  sent  a  man  out  to  induce  them 
to  return. 

December  28. — Dauforth  reported  that  twenty-four  lodges  on  Snake 
River  would  return  to  agency  at  once,  and  that  forty-seven  lodges  with 
Douglass  on  the  Sweetwater  would  return  next  month. 

December  29. — E.  A.  Hayt  telegraphed  Danforth  to  remain  at  Rawlins 
(the  agent  got  through  to  Kawlins  and  telegraphed  in  Mr.  Dauforth's 
name,  which  led  to  the  supposition  that  Dauforth  himself  was  there, 
but  it  turned  out  afterwards  that  it  was  one  of  his  employe's)  until  In- 
spector  Vandever  came,  and  said  :  "  Douglass's  band  is  making  disturb 
ance  near  Fort  Fetterinan.  Some  better  arrangement  must  be  made  to 
furnish  supplies  and  hold  Utes  on  reservation." 

January  6,  3878. — E.  A.  Hayt  telegraphed  Nash  to  purchase  10,000 
pounds  of  flour  and  deliver  to  Wagner  to  transport  to  White  River  on 
his  contract. 

January  7. — Holcornb  telegraphed  Wagner  that  above  flour  must  be 
delivered  at  once  at  White  River  on  his  contract. 

January  6. — Vandever  telegraphed  that  flour  would  have  to  be  left 
on  Bear  River  or  Snake  River,  and  that  Indians  had  all  left  Rawlins. 

The  worst  part  of  the  road  is  between  Bear  River  and  the  agency  ;  it 
begins  to  be  a  mountainous,  precipitous,  and  broken  country  from  that 
point  onward,  and  my  supposition  was  that  by  having  the  contractor 
take  the  goods  on  as  far  as  possible  the  Indians  with  their  ponies  could 
pack  to  the  agency  flour  enough  to  supply  them  during  the  winter,  and, 
as  will  be  seen,  that  was  finally  done. 

January  11. — E.  A.  Hayt  telegraphed  Edwards  (who  was  representing 
Agent  Dauforth  at  Rawlins)  that  Wagner  must  take  flour  through  to 
agency  and  that  Indians  must  go  to  agency  for  it. 

January  21. — Ed  wards  telegraphed  that  Wagner  would  not  start  teams 
unless  he  could  leave  flour  at  Bear  River,  it  being  impassable  beyond. 

January  22. — E.  A.  Hayt  telegraphs  Wagner  that  the  flour  must" go  at 
once. 

January  23.— Wagner  telegraphed :  "  Flour  leaves  to-day  for  the 
agency." 

January  23. — E.  A.  Hayt  telegraphed  EJ  wards,  an  agency  employe, 
"We  are  advised  that  contractor  will  take  flour  to  agency." 

That  was  a  misunderstanding  of  his  dispatch.  He'said,  "  Flour 
leaves  to-day  for  the  agency."  We  understood  by  that  dispatch  that  he 
would  by  some  means  get  it  through,  but  that  was  found  afterwards  to 
be  utterly  impossible,  and  it  had  to  be  left  on  Bear  River. 

January  23. — Wagner  wrote  that  flour  could  not  be  taken  to  agency, 
but  that  he  would  take  it  to  the  nearest  point  possible ;  that  in  his  bid 
he  had  stated  that  under  no  circumstances  would  he  agree  to  transport 
freight  later  than  the  middle  of  October. 

January  23. — Vandever  advised  that  flour  be  distributed  to  Indians 
at  Bear  River. 

February  4.— E.  A.  Hayt  returned  to  Secretary  of  the  Interior  War  De 
partment  letters  suggesting  that  Indians  be  fed  at  Fort  Steele,  with  re 
mark  that  as  Indians  were  on  their  way  to  the  agency  such  an  arrange 
ment  was  not  then  necessary. 

February  7.— Danforth  reported  that  flour  had  been  unloaded  at  house 
of  settler  on  Bear  River,  and  that  Wagner  should  be  required  to  bring 
it  to  the  agency. 

March  1. — Holcomb  telegraphed  Wagner :  "  Shall  hold  you  responsible 
for  delay  and  additional  cost,  if  any,  unless  you  at  once  arrange  to  bike 
flour  from  Bear  River  to  agency." 


36  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

That  was  getting  to  be  a  season  when  it  was  hoped  that  some  effort 
might  be  made  to  get  it  through.  / 

March  5. — Wagner  telegraphed  :  "  Have  sent  freighters  to  Bear  Eiver 
to  take  flour  to  agency  as  soon  as  roads  will  permit." 

March  5. — Holcomb  telegraphed  agent  of  above. 

March  21. — Danforth  notified  office  that  flour  was  still  at  Bear  River, 
that  more  than  the  IG^OOO  pounds  would  be  needed. 

April  7. — He  repeated  above  information. 

April  5. — Office  telegraphed  Mason  &  Hottel  to  know  at  what  rates 
they  would  furnish  25,000  pounds  flour  at  Laramie. 

May  10. — Leeds  telegraphed  Wagner  that  Mason  &  Hottel  would  de 
liver  him  25,000  pounds  of  flour  and  7,600  pounds  oats,  which  should  be 
hurried  to  White  Eiver. 

May  10. — Leeds  wrote  Danforth  that  flour  at  Bear  Eiver  was  then  on 
way  to  agency,  and  notified  him  of  above  purchase  of  25,000  pounds. 

May  20. — Leeds  telegraphed  Nash  to  go  to  Eawlins  and  deliver  to 
Wagner  the  1876  annuity  goods  which  he  stored  last  fall,  also  to  find 
terms  on  which  railroad  will  give  up  flour  and  oats,  and  ascertain  con 
dition  of  same. 

May  28. — Nash  reported  goods  at  Eawlins  turned  over  to  Wagner. 
Flour  damaged  33£  per  cent.,  oats  50  per  cent.,  and  not  worth  trans 
porting.  Eailroad  would  not  deliver  them  up  except  on  payment  of 
charges.  Advised  selling  them  at  auction.  Eeported  Utes  just  re 
turned  from  hunting  with  good  success. 

July  17. — Office  telegraphed  Meeker  that  flour  and  oats  at  Eawlins 
have  been  abandoned  on  account  of  excessive  charges. 

This  is  merely  brought  in  to  show  the  history  of  those  goods  and  to 
show  that  it  would  not  have  been  wise  for  the  government  to  take  them 
and  pay  the  charges  because  other  flour  and  oats  could  be  bought  at 
that  time  for  twenty  five  per  cent,  of  the  money. 

August  1. — Meeker  reports  arrival  at  agency  of  the  1876  annuity 
goods. 

These  goods  were  bought  in  1876,  but  so  late  that  there  was  no  time 
to  transport  them  to  the  agency  that  year.  The  appropriation  was  made 
late  and  the  goods  were  bought  late.  Now  the  committee  will  observe 
from  this  statement  taken  from  the  records  that  the  Indians  had  every 
thing  that  belonged  to  them  except  flour  and  the  annuity  goods,  which, 
of  course,  it  was  impossible  to  get  there. 

By  Mr.  DEERIN&  : 

Q.  In  the  commencement  of  your  statement  you  mentioned  the  time 
when  the  appropriation  was  made,  which  was  so  late,  you  say,  that,  it 
embarrassed  Mr.  Smith  ;  what  year  was  that  ? — A.  Eighteen  hundred 
and  seventy-six. 

By  Mr.  POEHLER: 

Q.  I  understand  you  to  say  that  the  annuity  goods  of  1876  did  not 
get  to  the  agency  until  the  1st  of  August,  1878  ? — A.  Not  until  the  1st 
of  August,  1878. 

Q.  Two  years  later  than  it  should  have  been  ' — A.  Yes ;  they  must 
have  been  purchased  in  the  mouth  of  August  or  September,  1876,  and 
they  arrived  there  in  August,  1878,  having  remained  all  the  time  at 
Kawlins. 

By  Mr.  WADDILL  : 
Q.  You  say  they  lay  at  Eawlins  all  this  time.    Now,  do  you  under- 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  37 

stand  why  were  they  Dot  sent  from  Eawlins  I  They  could  have  been 
seni  in  August  and  September  ? — A.  The  trouble  was  this :  The  trans 
portation  contractor  from  Rawlins  to  the  agency  finished  with  the  1st 
of  July;  therefore  they  were  not  delivered  to  the  contractor,  and  they 
had  to  wait  there  until  the  next  contract  was  made. 

Q.  And  that  was  delayed  by  appropriations  ? — A.  No;  the  first  one 
was  delayed  by  appropriations.  They  got  there  too  late  for  that  fiscal 
year,  and  then  they  had  to  be  transported  under  the  transportation  con 
tract  of  the  next  fiscal  year.  If  the  goods  do  not  reach  the  contractor 
having  a  contract  before  the  close  of  the  fiscal  year  he  cannot  touch 
them.  They  have  to  wait  until  another  contract  is  made. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN: 

Q.  Could  that  other  contract  have  been  made  in  time  to  have  got  the 
goods  there  that  fall? — A.  You  see  they  arrived  there  some  time  too 
late  in  .1876  to  be  shipped.  They  lay  there  through  1877  before  I  came 
into  the  office. 

Q.  You  came  into  office  in  September,  1877  1 — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  there  no  means  of  having  them  shipped  and  conveyed  to  the 
agency  after  you  came  in  ?  Could  it  not  have  been  done  ? — A.  It  is 
just  possible  that  they  might  have  been  carried  through  sooner,  but  the 
other  goods  had  reached  there  in  the  meantime.  The  other  goods  got 
there  in  season,  but  those  of  1876  did  not  reach  them  until  the  next  year. 
They  really  did  not  need  them. 

Q.  They  did  get  other  goods,  then  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  they  got  other  goods 
just  before  I  came  into  the  office.     I  read  you  the  report  that  the  annu 
ity  goods  for  that  current  year  came  through  (except  flour),  and,  of 
course,  there  was  no  urgency  for  those  of  1876. 
By  Mr.  POEHLER  : 

Q.  When  were  the  goods  for  1876  transported  to  the  agency  ? — A. 
They  arrived  at  the  agency  on  the  1st  of  August,  1878. 

Q.  Would  not  that  make  a  double  amount  to  be  issued  to  the  Indians 
at  that  time  ? — A.  That  would  give  them  more  goods  there.  Of  course, 
next  year's  supplies  came  right  on  top  of  them. 

Q.  And  they  were  all  issued? — A.  I  would  say  this:  From  the  time 
I  came  to  the  office,  subsequent  to  this  period,  not  only  the  Northern. 
Utes  but  the  Los  Pinos  and  Southern  Utes  have  been  amply  supplied. 
All  the  money  appropriated  has  been  expended  for  goods,  and  there  has 
been  plenty  of  goods.  At  the  time  of  the  outbreak  the  goods  were  com 
ing  in  quantities  to  the  agency  besides  what  they  had  on  hand. 

Q.  I  cannot  see  why  either  the  old  contractor  or  the  new  would  not 
have  transported  those  goods  in  1877.  The  old  contractor  has  his  con 
tract  until  the  1st  of  July,  giving  him  the  spring  after  May,  and  the 
new  contractor  comes  in  on  the  1st  of  July  (the  contract  having  been 
made  before  that  time,  of  course). — A.  But  you  understand  we  did  not 
get  the  goods  finally  in  our  possession  time  enough  to  get  them  through 
on  the  1st  of  August,  and  they  were  withheld  for  charges.  D.  J.  Mc- 
Caun,  the  contractor,  did  not  pay,  and  the  railroad  company  would  not 
give  up  the  goods;  we  sent  through  the  Department  of  Justice  to  have 
them  replevined,  and  just  as  soon  as  they  were  replevined  they  were 
taken  through  to  the  agency.  That  is  the  reason. 

By  Mr.  HASKELL  : 

Q.  In  the  mean  time,  the  1876  goods  having  failed,  the  1877  goods  went 
right  on  ? — A.  Yes,  sir;  and  the  1876  goods,  as  soon  as  they  came  out  of 
the  hands  of  the  railroad  company,  were  forwarded  without  delay. 


38  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK 

By  Mr.  DEERING  : 

Q.  You  say  the  appropriation  was  made  in  August,  1876? — A.  It  was 
made  very  late;  I  don't  remember  the  date  exactly.  I  thiuk  the  pur 
chasing  commenced  in  August. 

Q.  The  indications  from  those  dates  are,  that  the  goods  would  have 
arrived  at  Fort  Eawlins  in  December,  187G.  Now,  there  were  nine 
months  intervening ;  do  you  justify  the  seeming  neglect  on  the  part  of 
your  predecessor  for  so  long  a  period  ?  There  was  the  whole  of  the  fol 
lowing  summer  after  they  arrived. — A.  But  you  notice  that  I  have  just 
said  that  those  goods  were  held  by  the  railroad  company  for  the  freight 
charges  that  this  contractor  had  failed  to  pay,  and  they  Vere  replevined 
just  as  soon  as  it  was  possible  to  do  it. 

By  Mr.  POEHLER  : 

Q.  That  was  done  under  jour  administration  1 — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  But  the  previous  administration  had  a  long  time  during  which  they 
should  have  done  it. — A.  O,  they  ought  to  have  got  goods  there  in  the 
summer  of  1877 ;  if  those  goods  were  detained,  other  goods  should  have 
been  sent.  You  see  there  was  flour  at  Eawlins  for  that  agency  on  the 
1st  of  June,  1877,  that  remained  there  until  the  advices  reached  here 
very  much  later. 

The  agreement  made  with  the  Southern  and  Los  Pinos  Utes  by  this 
Hatch  commission  was  in  accordance  with  an  act  of  Congress,  that  is, 
the  commission  was  appointed  in  accordance  with  an  act  of  Congress, 
and  that  act  required  that  they  be  consolidated  upon  the  White  Biver. 
It  was  found  by  the  commission  utterly  impossible  to  consolidate  the 
Indians  there  with  their  consent,  and  if  their  consent  could1  have  been 
obtained,  it  was  found  to  be  utterly  impossible  to  make  them  self-sup 
porting  at  that  place.  For  that  reason  the  commission  made  another 
agreement  with  them,  by  which  they  agreed  to  take  this  territory  (indi 
cating  on  map),  about  700,000  acres,  in  the  place  of  1,800,000  acres  in 
this  vicinity.  That  agreement  was  made  by  the  commission  without 
any  stipulation  to  pay  the  Indians  a  cent  for  the  territory  relinquished, 

By  Mr.  WADDILL  : 

Q.  That  was  the  McFarlancl  commission  ? — A.  The  Hatch-McFar- 
laud-Morrill  commission.  When  the  report  of  that  commission  was  for 
warded,  the  following  letter  was  addressed  by  me  to  the  Secretary  of  the 
Interior  for  transmission  to  Congress: 

DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  INTERIOR, 

OFFICE  OF  INDIAN  AFFAIRS, 

Washington,  February  37  1879. 
The  Hon.  THE  SECRETARY  OF  THE  INTERIOR  : 

SIR  :  I  have  the  honor  to  acknowledge  the  receipt  of  your  communication  of  the  21st 
ultimo,  transmitting  the  report,  dated  the  27th  December  last,  of  the  Ute  commission, 
for  examination  and  recommendation  by  this  office,  with  a  view  to  its  proper  submis 
sion  by  the  President  to  Congress. 

By  act  of  Congress  approved  May  3, 1878  (Pamphlet  Laws,  page  48),  the  President  was 
directed  to  enter  into  negotiations  with  the  Ute  Indians  of  Colorado  for  the  consolida 
tion  of  all  their  bands  at  one  agency,  to  be  located  on  or  near  White  Eiver,  and  for  the 
relinquishment  of  their  right  to  the  southern  portion  of  their  reservation  in  said  State. 

The  President  designated  Maj.  Gen.  Edward  Hatch,  U.  S.  A.;  Hon.  William  Stickney, 
of  this  city,  and  N.  C.  McFarland,  esq.,  of  Topeka,  Kans.,  as  a  commission  to  conduct 
said  negotiations,  and  instructions  were  issued  to  them  by  this  office  on  the  29th  June, 
1878.  They  subsequently  assembled  in  Colorado  in  pursuance  of  their  duties,  where 
Mr.  Stickney,  by  reason  of  illness,  tendered  his  resignation  as  a  member  of  said  com 
mission,  which  was  accepted  by  the  President,  and  Hon.  Lot  M.  Morrill,  of  Maine,  ap 
pointed  to  fill  the  vacancy. 

As  appears  from  the  said  report,  the  commission  were  unable  to  accomplish  the  con- 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  39^ 

solidation  of  the  various  bands  of  Ute  Indians,  but  did  succeed  in  obtaining  from  them 
a  cession  of  the  southern  portion  of  their  reservation  in  Colorado. 

Among  the  papers  submitted  with  said  report  is  an  agreement,  entered  into  at  Pagosa 
Springs,  Colo.,  ou  the  9th  November,  187d,  between  said  commission,  acting  in  behalf 
of  the  United  States  and  the  chiefs  and  headmen  of  the  Muache,  Capote,  and  Wee- 
ruin  uche  bauds  of  Ute  Indians  in  said  State,  by  which  the  latter  release  and  relinquish 
all  their  right  to  and  interest  in  the  Confederated  Ute  Reservation  in  that  State,  and 
particularly  that  portion  thereof  lying  south  of  the  parallel  of  thirty-eight  degrees 
and  ten  minutes  (38°10')  north  latitude,  and  agree  to  remove  to  a  new  reservation 
during  the  spring  and  summer  of  the  present  year,  and  as  soon  as  an  agency  shall  be 
located  thereon  and  buildings  erected  therefor. 

The  agreement  further  provides  that  such  new  reservation  shall  be  set  apart  by  the 
government  for  the  use  and  occupancy  of  said  bands  of  Indians  on  the  headwaters  of 
the  Piedra,  San  Juan,  Blanco,  Navajo,  and  Chama  Rivers,  in  the  State  of  Colorado,  its 
precise  boundaries  defined  by  proclamation  of  the  President,  an  agency  established 
during  the  spring  and  summer  of  1879,  and  suitable  buildings  for  agency  purposes 
erected  thereon.  Said  agreement  further  binds  the  Indians  not  to  obstruct  nor  inter 
fere  with  travel  upon  any  of  the  highways  now  open,  or  hereafter  to  be  opened,  by 
lawful  authority  upon  their  new  reservation. 

Other  papers,  filed  with  said  report,  signed  by  the  chiefs  and  headmen  of  the  Tabe- 
quache,  Yarnpa,  and  Grand  River  Utes  of  Colorado,  and  of  the  Uintah  band  of  Utes, 
in  the  Territory  of  Utah,  concur  in  said  cession  of  the  lands  immediately  south  and 
west  of  the  San  Juan  mining  district,  which  are  those  described  in  the  agreement 
aforesaid.  It  will  thus  be  seen  that  said  cession  is  concurred  in  by  all  the  different 
organized  bands  of  Ute  Indians.  I  have  the  honor  to  recommend  that  said  agreement, 
with  the  papers  showing  the  assent  thereto  of  the  other  bands  of  Utes,  be  submitted 
to  the  President  for  transmission  to  Congress,  with  a  recommendation  for  early  con 
firmation  thereof  by  that  body. 

I  have  prepared,  after  full  consultation  with  General  Hatch,  chairman  of  said  com 
mission,  a  diagram  representing  the  location  and  boundaries  of  the  new  reservation 
provided  for  in  said  agreement,  and  submit  the  same  herewith. 

It  is  estimated  to  contain  an  area  of  about  728,320  acres,  and  in  physical  features 
and  convenience  of  access  is  believed  to  be  well  adapted  to  the  purpose  for  which 
it  is  designed.  It  has  a  healthful  climate,  abounds  in  game  and  fish,  and  embraces  a 
number  of  valleys  of  considerable  extent  and  great  fertility.  Its  area  is  sufficient  to 
provide  homes  for  all  the  bands  of  Ute  Indians  of  Colorado  and  Utah,  should  subse 
quent  negotiations  succeed  in  accomplishing  the  much  desired  result  of  uniting  them 
upon  one  diminished  reservation.  From  the  most  reliable  data  at  the  command  of 
this  office  it  is  believed  that  the  members  of  all  said  bands  do  not  exceed  four  thou 
sand  persons,  and  the  reservation  so  provided  is  therefore  evidently  ample  for  their 
wants. 

The  area  ceded  as  aforesaid  is  estimated  to  amount  to  about  1,894,400  acres,  being 
an  excess  over  the  728,320  acres  embraced  in  the  new  reservation  of  1,16;I,080  acres. 
For  this  excess  the  Indians  should  receive  a  fair  compensation,  and  although  no  pro 
vision  therefor  is  found  in  the  agreement  of  cession,  the  justice  thereof  is  so  evident  as 
to  admit  of  no  question. 

That  they  expected  compensation  for  the  lands  so  ceded  by  them  is  fully  apparent 
from  an  examination  of  the  report  of  the  commission,  with  its  accompanying  docu 
ments.  It  is  shown  thereby  that  at  first  they  declined  to  entertain  any  proposition 
looking  to  a  farther  cession  of  any  portion  of  their  territory. 

Afterward,  however,  by  a  paper  signed  on  the  23th  August,  1873  (herewith),  they 
consented  to  remove  from  their  present  reservation,  and  agreed  to  sell  the  same  at  a 
price  to  be  fixed  by  the  commission  and  the  Utes.  While  this  was  not  carried  in  the 
agreement  subsequently  made,  it  shows  the  views  and  feelings  of  the  Indians  upon 
the  subject. 

I  have,  therefore,  the  honor  to  recommend  that  Congress  be  asked  to  provide  for  the 
survey  and  sale,  through  the  United  States  land  office  for  the  proper  district,  as  part  of 
the  public  domain,  of  the  lands  ceded  as  aforesaid,  and  for  the  statement  of  an  account 
showing  the  net  proceeds  of  the  sale  of  the  excess  aforesaid,  after  deducting  the  ex 
penses  of  such  survey  and  sale,  and  for  the  investment  of  such  net  proceeds  in  four  per 
cent,  bonds  of  the  United  States,  for  the  common  benefit  of  all  the  Ute  Indians  who 
may  settle  upon  the  new  reservation  provided  for  in  said  agreement. 

I  have  the  honor  to  recommend,  further,  that  Congress  be  asked  for  an  appropriation 
of  twenty-five  thousand  dollars  for  the  erection  of  agency  buildings,  including  resi 
dence  of  agent,  and  for  the  removal  thereto  of  the  Muache,  Capote,  and  Weerninuche 
bands  of  Ute  Indians. 

I  have  prepared  and  submit  herewith,  in  triplicate,  a  bill  for  the  confirmation  of  said 


agreement,  and  for  carrying  into  effect  the  survey,  sale,  investment,  and  appropriation 
aforesaid,  and  respectfully  recommend  that  all  the  foregoing  papers  belaid  bei 


ifore  Con- 


40  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

gress  by  the  President  as  a  part  of  his  report,  in  compliance  with  the  provisions  of 
the  act. 

I  also  respectfully  submit  herewith  duplicate  copies  of  this  report,  and  return  the 
papers  transmitted  by  the  department  to  this  office  with  said  couirnunicatiou  of  the 
21st  ultimo. 

Very  respectfully,  your  obedient  servant, 

E.  A.  HAYT, 

Commissioner. 

The  date  of  this  letter  was  February  3, 1379,  and  long  anterior  to  any 
dissatisfaction  or  hostilities  on  the  part  of  the  Northern  Utes.  I  think 
that  statement  disposes  of  all  that  has  been  said  about  making  a  treaty 
with  them  and  taking  their  lands  without  paying  them,  they  ceding  on 
their  part  1,800,000  acres,  and  we  giving  them  700,000  acres,  and  the 
dissatisfaction  which  grew  out  of  it. 

Now,  there  was  one  more  cession  which  that  commission  negotiated, 
and  that  was  the  little  Four  Miles  Strip,  north  of  the  town  of  Ouray. 
The  Indians  agreed  to  sell  that  for  $10,000  in  cash,  but  none  of  these 
propositions  have  been  acted  upon  by  Congress  ;  therefore  nothing  has 
been  done. 

By  Mr.  POEHLER  : 

Q-  Why  didn't  the  commission  make  any  provision  for  the  payment 
for  the  balance  of  these  lands  at  the  time  the  treaty  was  made,  or  some 
definite  arrangement  as  to  the  way  in  which  it  should  be  settled  ? 
Didn't  the  Indians,  by  this  being  left  out.  become  dissatisfied  and  think  it 
was  left  out  intentionally,  and  that  they  should  be  paid  for  this  balance 
of  1,100,000  acres  of  land? — A.  1  think  that  such  is  not  the  fact.  I 
think  the  Indians  expected  to  be  paid,  as  I  intimate  in  this  letter,  for 
the  difference,  although  in  the  treaty  there  is  no  stipulation  covering  or 
guarding  the  Indians  on  that  point. 

Q.  But  didn't  the  Indians  insist  upon  such  a  stipulation  ?  Why  was 
it  not  inserted  in  the  agreement  signed  by  the  Indians  ? — A.  The  In 
dians  have  said  nothing  more  about  it  than  what  appears  on  the  paper 
here.  It  looks  as  if  they  expected  to  be  paid  for  the  difference^  but 
there  is  no  stipulation  in  the  agreement  covering  that  right  of  the  In 
dians. 

By  Mr.  GUNTER: 

Q.  And  hence  that  letter  suggests  it  as  an  equitable  act? — A.  Yes, 
sir;  I  asked  that  this  should  be  sent  to  the  President,  and  sent  with 
his  report  to  Congress  in  compliance  with  the  act. 

Q.  This,  I  understand,  is  your  own  report? — A.  Yes,  sir;  and  sug 
gestion. 

By  Mr.  POEHLER  : 

Q.  A  suggestion  made  by  your  office  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  by  myself,  per 
sonally. 

Q.  But  did  the  Indians  know  that  this  suggestion  was  made  by  the 
office  as  to  how  the  balance  of  their  lauds  should  be  settled  for  ? — A. 
The  Indians  have  never  been  informed  on  that  subject. 

Q.  Don't  you  think  that,  understanding  that  their  treaty  was  signed 
making  an  exchange  of  700,000  acres  of  laud  for  1,800,000  acres  with 
out  any  provision  being  made  for  payment  for  the  balance  of  the  land, 
they  thought  an  advantage  had  been  taken,  and  that  they  had  been 
used  in  that  way  by  designing  persons  ? — A.  I  do  not  suppose  that 
the  Indians  really  knew  anything  about  it.  Their  knowledge  extends 
only  this  far :  They  thought  they  were  covered  for  that  in  the  treaty. 
It  is  evident  from  the  papers  accompanying  the  treaty  and  the  inter- 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  41 

views  with  the  Indians  during  the  councils  that  they  expected  that,  but 
the  commission  failed  to  do  it.  Mr.  McFarlaud  said  that  they  made 
this  exchange  without  committing  the  government  to  pay  a  cent  for  the 
difference.  1  said  to  him,  "I  think  you  have  made  a  mistake.  The 
Indians  ought  to  be  paid  for  their  lands  as  well  as  anybody  else,  and  it 
is  the  duty  of  the  Indian  Office  to  see  that  they  are  paid." 

Q.  But  McFarland  making  that  expression,  and  that  idea  going  out, 
didn't  that  idea  get  to  the  Indians  that  this  exchange  was  made  without 
any  provision  to  pay  them  for  the  balance  of  the  land? — A.  No;  I  do 
not  think  that  ever  got  to  the  Indians.  I  do  not  think  they  understand 
it  now. 

By  Mr.  ERRETT  : 

Q.  Have  they  ever  been  paid? — A.  O,  nothing  has  been  done. 

Mr.  HASKELL.  There  were  two  agreements,  as  I  understand :  the 
original  schedule  in  which  payment  was  contemplated  for  the  lands  and 
with  which  the  Indians  were  satisfied.  That  is  the  original  draft.  Now, 
the  commissioners  drew  up  a  new  one  with  this  left  out.  The  Indians 
had  no  reason  to  doubt  that  their  original  agreement  will  be  complied 
with.  They  have  just  as  good  reason  to  believe  that  their  original  un 
derstanding  will  be  carried  out  as  to  believe  that  a  subsequent  recom 
mendation  by  the  commission,  not  indorsed  but  disapproved  by  the  In 
dian  Bureau,  will  be  carried  out. 

Mr.  ERRETT.  The  bureau  differs  with  the  commission,  but  the  treaty 
has  not  been  disapproved. 

The  WITNESS.  By  law  we  are  forbidden  to  make  treaties  with  the 
Indians;  these  are  mere  agreements;  the  whole  matter  is  in  the  hands 
of  Congress. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN: 

Q.  Was  there  ever  an  agreement  with  these  Ute  Indians  by  which 
you  were  to  pay  them  for  their  lands? — A.  The  agreement  does  not 
cover  that. 

Q.  When  was  the  original  agreement  made?— A.  O,  the  lands  belong 
to  them;  that  is  all. 

Q.  Then  there  is  but  one  agreement,  and  that  is  the  McFarland- 
Hatch  agreement? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  in  that  there  was  no  stipulation  that  they  would  be  paid  for 
the  excess  that  we  got? — A.  There  was  no  stipulation  that  they  should 
be  paid. 

Q.  I  understand  from  you  that  they  did  not  even  insist  upon  it? — A. 

^,  the  Indians  expected  it. 

By  Mr.  ERRETT: 

Q.  What  led  them  to  expect  it?  Was  there  any  act  upon  the  part  of 
the  Indian  Bureau? — A.  We  have  had  no  communication  with  the  In 
dians  on  the  subject  since  the  report  of  this  commission.  There  has 
been  no  action  taken  between  the  Indians  and  the  office.  They  have 
made  no  complaint. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Then  nothing  took  place  between  the  government  and  the  Indians 
prior  to  that  time  wrhich  gave  the  Indians  any  reason  to  expect  that  they 
would  be  paid  for  this  excess?— A.  Well,  the  Indians  did  expect  it. 

Q.  But  the  government  did  not  commit  itself  to  that  theretofore?— 
A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Are  the  Indians  generally  as  careless  about  their  treaties  or  nego 
tiations  as  that,  to  be  willing  to  give  up  1,800,000  acres  for  700,000  with 


42  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

out  asking  pay  for  the  difference? — A.  As  I  have  stated  in  this  letter, 
the  Indians  in  council  expected  to  be  paid. 

Q.  Are  they  as  careless  as  that  generally  ? — A.  Sometimes  they  are 
very  careless  arid  sometimes  very  shrewd.  You  cannot  establish  any 
rule  in  regard  to  that,  and  the  fact  that  has  been  alleged  here  that  my 
report  created  dissatisfaction  in  Colorado  among  the  Indians  is  simply 
mythological.  I  doubt  whether  there  is  a  single  copy  of  that  report  oil 
the  reservation.  We  do  not  send  them  there.  They  are  circulated  in  the 
East  mostly  and  not  in  the  West,  nor  in  the  vicinity  of  these  reservations. 
It  is  quite  possible  that  there  is  not  a  single  copy  of  the  report  of  1877, 
in  which  there  was  a  general  recommendation  that  the  Indians  be  taken 
out  of  New  Mexico,  Colorado,  and  Arizona  and  put  into  the  Indian  Ter 
ritory,  so  that  there  is  not  out  there  a  single  copy.  It  was  a  general  re- 
mark.  Those  three  things  were  taken*  together  so  that  they  would  not 
take  it  as  invidious  even  if  they  knew  of  it. 
By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Was  there  any  effort  made  by  this  commission  to  get  them  to  go 
to  the  Indian  Territory  ? — A.  They  were  instructed  it'  they  did  not  agree 
to  go  to  the  White  River  to  ask  them  if  they  would  go  to  the  Indian 
Territory. 

Q.  What  was  your  understanding,  that  they  were  willing  or  unwilling? 
— A.  Unwilling.  They  did  not  express  any  desire  to  go  there. 

Q.  Were  they  very  much  opposed  to  it? — A.  1  do  not  think  they  ex 
pressed  any  decided  opposition  to  it.  They  preferred  to  remain  in  Col 
orado. 

Q.  But  you  do  not  think  they  were  opposed  to  it? — A.  There  was  no 
decided  opposition  to  it  on  the  part  of  the  Indians.  Mr.  Merrill,  one  of 
the  commissioners,  thought  that  after  awhile  the  Indians  would  be  ed 
ucated  up  to  wishing  to  leave  their  own  country  for  arable  land  where 
they  could  cultivate  the  soil. 

Q.  Where  you  find  that  Indians  seem  to  be  opposed  to  a  removal,  is 
it  wise  to  continue  to  recommend  it  and  insist  upon  their  going  there? 
— A.  There  is  no  insistence  upon  it  on  my  part;  it  is  simply  a  recom 
mendation,  and  the  reason  for  the  recommendation  is  this:  In  this  vi 
cinity  there  are  600,000  square  miles  of  mountainous  country.  So  far 
as  the  troops  of  the  United  States  are  concerned,  they  cannot  operate 
successfully  there.  I  am  apprehensive  that  if  General  Merritt's  troops 
had  gone  on  they  would  have  been  picked  off  in  detail.  The  Indians 
are  entirely  acquainted  with  the  country,  and  it  is  admirably  adapted  to 
Indian  warfare.  It  is  like  the  lava  beds,  broken,  rugged,  and  it  is  im 
possible  to  use  artillery.  You  can  see  that  the  troops  would  be  placed 
at  serious  disadvantage,  especially  as  they  had  with  them  no  Indian 
allies. 

By  Mr.  POEHLER  : 

Q.  I  understand  you  that  in  the  council  between  the  Indians  and  the 
commissioners  it  was  understood  that  the  Indians  should  be  paid  for 
the  excess  of  laud? — A.  The  Indians  assumed  that  in  their  council,  but 
when  the  agreement  was  written  one  of  the  members  of  the  commission 
said  to  me,  "  We  got  this  without  a  stipulation  in  the  agreement  to  pay 
one  cent  to  the  Indians."  I  said,  "I  think  that  is  wrong." 

Q.  Then,  this  same  idea  that  the  commissioners  in  making  their  re 
port  without  providing  in  some  way  or  giving  the  understanding  in  some 
way  how  it  should  be  settled  has  gone  out,  because  it  has  been  stated 
here  by  one  of  the  witnesses  that  it  was  one  of  the  causes  of  discontent. 

The* WITNESS.  That  was  related  by  Mr.  Leeds,  was  it  not  ? 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  43 

Mr.  POEHLER.  I  cannot  say. 

A.  Well,  be  got  the  information  in  the  Indian  Office,  so  that  you  see 
it  does  not  cotne  from  the  outside. 

Q.  I  want  to  know  whether  that  idea  has  not  got  out  among  the  In 
dians  ?__A.  No  ;  I  think  not.  We  have  taken  the  pains  to  send  it  up 
with  a  bill  accompanying  it,  stating  that  the  Indians  should  be  paid  in 
full. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  It  seems  to  me  the  department  has  done  all  it  could 
to  have  justice  done. 

Mr.  POEHLER.  Yes  5  but  it  seems  to  me  that  the  commission  did  wrong 
to  make  an  arrangement  that  they  should  not  be  remunerated. 

The  WITNESS.  1  am  sorry  to  say  that  it  seems  to  be  a  fault  with  most 
of  our  treaties  that  they  look  out  very  sharply  for  the  United  States  and 
not  so  sharply  for  the  Indians. 

By  Mr.  WADDILL  : 

Q.  In  regard  to  that  bargain  of  700,000  acres  of  land  for.  1,800,000, 
under  that  partial»or  inchoate  agreement,  did  the  Indians  go  from  the 
1,800,000  acres  to  the  700,000  acres?— A.  No;  they  still  retain  posses 
sion  of  the  land  ;  they  have  parted  with  nothing. 

Adjourned  to  Thursday,  January  22,  1880. 


WASHINGTON,  January  19,  1880. 
CLINTON  JB.  FISK  sworn  and  examined. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  State  your  residence  and  occupation. — Answer.  I  reside  in 
New  Jersey,  and  do  business  as  a  banker  in  New  York. 

Q.  Have  yon  had  any  connection  with  Indian  matters? — A.  Some 
what.  I  have  been  a  member  of  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners 
about  six  years. 

Q.  We  are  investigating  the  recent  outbreak  among  the  Utes,  and  if 
you  know  anything  that  will  throw  light  upon  that  matter  we  would 
like  to  have  you  state  it  in  your  own  way. — A.  The  causes  for  irritation 
among  the  Utes,  1  think,  are  many,  and  dating  back  as  far  as  the  ex- 
ecntion  of  what  is  called  the  Brunot  treaty  in  1873,  when  the  Indians 
thought  they  were  misunderstood  or  misrepresented  in  their  agree 
ment  as  to  the  quantity  of  land  they  were  to  cede  under  that  contract. 
If  you  are  familiar  with  the  large  reservation  which  then  existed  in  the 
western  part  of  the  Territory  and  also  with  the  Brunot  treaty  you  will  re 
member  that  in  1873  Mr.  Brunot  went  there  on  the  part  of  the  govern 
ment  to  engage  for  a  withdrawal  of  a  portion  of  the  Indians'  land.  It 
is  claimed  that  they  supposed  they  were  only  surrendering  their  mineral 
lands,  and  that  instead  of  leaving  a  strip  of  laud  fifteen  miles  wide  on 
the  southern  limit  and  twenty  miles  wide  on  the  western,  below  the  line 
of  the  Los  Pinos  Agency,  they  were  really  retaining  forty  miles  on  the 
western  and  thirty  on  the  southern  side.  They  claimed  that  they  did 
not  understand  that  they  in  any  wise  were  to  relinquish  their  rich  lands 
on  the  San  Miguel,  but  chiefly  to  give  up  their  mineral  lands,  which 
were  then  much  sought  for  in  the  San  Juan  region.  They  also  claimed 
that  inasmuch  as  many  of  their  head  men  and  others  were  not  at  that 
council  at  Los  Pinos  in  1873,  but  runners  were  sent  out  to  them  with 
the  papers  to  get  their  signatures,  the  signatures  were  not  really  ob 
tained,  but  were  put  down  by  some  unauthorized  person  and  sent  for- 


44  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

ward  here.  Those  things  have  been  talked  about  among  the  Utes  dur 
ing  all  the  years  since  1873,  and  have  been  a  cause  of  irritation  at  all 
the  agencies.  Then  .following  this  agreement  came  the  failure  of  the 
government  to  pay  them  annually  this  $25,000  in  money.  That  was 
the  cause  of  a  good  deal  of  irritation,  as  they  expected  to  get  it  but  did 
not.  Coming  up  to  the  White  River  Utes,  as  I  understand  it,  a  very 
serious  cause  of  irritation  among  them  again  in  1877  was  the  failure  to 
deliver  to  them  their  supplies  which  had  been  bought  the  year  before, 
and  in  that  connection,  if  you  will  permit  me,  I  will  read  a  short  para 
graph  from  the  report  of  Mr.  Danforth  for  1877,  who  was  at  that  time 
the  agent.  He  says :  "An  unusual  number  of  Indians  have  been  oft' 
their  reservation  during  the  past  year,  and  they  remained  away  for 
some  time.  There  are  several  reasons  for  this.  The  annuities  and  sup 
plies  furnished  these  Indians  amount  to,  at  a  liberal  estimate,  not  over 
one-half  that  required  for  their  support.  None  of  their  annuity  goods 
and  but  part  of  their  supplies  have  reached  this  agency  during  the  year. 
Goods  purchased  in  August  of  last  year  have  been  tying  in  the  railroad 
depot,  175  miles  away,  since  November  last,  a  period  of  over  nine 
months.  Flour  purchased  the  first  of  June  is  still  at  Rawlins.  No 
clothing,  blankets,  tents,  implements,  or  utensils  of  any  kind  have  been 
issued  at  this  agency  for  nearly  two  years ;  no  flour,  except  once  fifteen 
pounds  to  a  family,  since  last  May.  In  addition  to  their  proportion  of 
their  subsistence  which  the  Indians  provide  for  themselves,  they  have 
had  this  great  deficiency  to  make  up  wholly  or  in  part  in  some  way. 
With  the  exception  of  a  few  families,  the  only  way  in  which  the  Indians 
here  know  how  to  provide  for  themselves  is  by  hunting.  By  prohibi 
tory  regulation  of  the  department  the  sale  of  arms  and  ammunition  on 
the  reservation  has  been  prohibited.  At  the  same  time  the  Indians 
have  had  only  to  go  off  their  reservation  to  obtain  all  the  arms  and 
ammunition,  both  loose  and  fixed,  which  they  desire,  a  number  of  trad 
ing-posts  being  accessible,  and  no  white  man  refusing  to  furnish  these 
articles  to  the  Indians  ;  a  pretty  good  evidence,  when  there  is  no  feeling 
in  the  community  against  it,  that  the  people  do  not  stand  in  any  great 
fear  of  the  Indians.  Many  settlers  have  made  it  their  principal  busi 
ness  to  trade  with  the  Indians  during  the  past  year,  and  have  oftered 
every  inducement  for  them  to  leave  their  reservation."  That  is  the  re 
port  of  Agent  Dauforth  in  the  autumn  of  1877. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  That  was  to  Commissioner  Smith,  was  it  not  ? — A.  I  don't  remem 
ber  when  Commissioner  Smith  went  out.  It  was  about  this  time,  I  think. 
The  failure  to  transport  the  goods  bought  the  August  before  was,  of 
course,  in  Commissioner  Smith's  administration.  The  goods  were  pur 
chased  in  August,  187G,  and  had  been  lying  for  mouths  and  months  in 
the  warehouse  at  Rawlius,  as  the  agent  states.  The  failure  to  supply 
the  Indians  continued  during  the  winter  and  in  the  spring  time,  when 
the  Utes  themselves  went  to  Rawlins  to  see  if  they  could  get  some  of 
the  supplies.  I  was  in  Colorado  in  the  summer  of  1878  when  the  com 
plaints  of  the  Indians  were  among  the  worst,  and  had  correspondence 
with  Agent  Meeker  about  it,  and  a  good  deal  of  correspondence  with 
the  Rev.  Dr.  Crary,  of  the  Methodist  Episcopal  Church,  who  in  that  sec 
tion  of  the  country  kept  us  advised  at  our  mission  rooms  in  New  York 
of  the  condition  of  Indians  affairs  so  far  as  possible.  The  doctor  was 
importunate  in  his  pleadings,  as  was  also  Mr.  Meeker,  that  there  should 
be  something  done  to  relieve  these  people. 

Q.  Did  you  take  any  steps  to  inform  the  Commissioner  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  45 

That  is,  I  communicated  with  our  office  here,  the  Board  of  Indian  Com 
missioners,  as  was  my  duty,  and  kept  them  duly  informed  of  everything 
I  knew  pertaining  to  Indian  affairs  out  there. 

Q.  Was  it  their  duty  to  communicate  with  the  Indian  Office? — A. 
Yes,  sir.  I  was  in  Colorado  also  when  the  commission,  consisting  of 
General  Hatch,  Mr.  McFarland,  and  Mr.  Stickney  originally  (subse 
quently  Senator  Morrill,  of  Maine,  took  his  place),  were  making  prepa 
rations  to  go  to  work,  and  I  intended  to  accompany  them  as  the  repre 
sentative  of  our  board,  but  my  views  were  not  at  all  in  harmony  with 
what  appeared  to  be  their  instructions,  and  not  wishing  to  be  in  con 
flict  with  any  one  I  did  not  go  any  further  than  Allamosa,  and  there  I 
left  them.  1  think  the  way  that  commission  was  carried  on  was  a  source 
of  a  good  deal  of  irritation  and  dissatisfaction  among  the  Utes,  not  only 
at  White  Eiver  but  generally.  They  complained  in  this,  that  the  moneys 
due  them  were  withheld,  and  that  there  was  a  proposition  to  pay  them 
what  we  honestly  owed  them  only  on  condition  that  tbey  would  give  us 
more  of  their  lands,  and  it  was  proposed  to  give  them  some  candy  and 
a  little  calico,  and  get  them  good  natured  and  make  this  new  bargain. 
General  Hatch  at  first  was  firmly  of  the  opinion  that  he  ought  not  to  go 
unless  be  had  the  actual  money  due  them  to  show  that  we  were  at  least 
prepared  to  comply  with  our  old  covenant  to  pay  them  this  $25,000  a 
a  year.  I  think  the  bargain  then  made  was  a  cause  of  irritation,  keep 
ing  the  Utes  stirred  up.  The  failure  on  the  part  of  the  Utes  to  get  these 
supplies  was  a  serious  cause  of  irritation.  The  change  of  agents  at  the 
White  Eiver  Agency  in  1878  was  a  most  unfortunate  thing.  Mr.  Dan- 
forth,  who  had  been  the  agent  at  White  River  for  four  years,  was  a  very 
able  man  and  a  very  good  man,  and  with  his  wife  had  been  there  four 
years  with  them,  and  had  done,  something,  not  very  much  it  is  true, 
but  something,  to  teach  them  agriculture.  His  wife  also  had  been 
a  most  faithful  teacher  of  the  Indian  children,  so  far  as  she  could 
gather  them  together.  She  had  taught  the  Indian  women  the  arts 
of  cookery  and  housekeeping,  and  had  done  very  much  to  give  the 
White  Kiver  Utes  an  idea  of  a  good  home.  Unfortunately,  the  Dan- 
forths  left  the  agency  in  1878,  and  then  very  unfortunate,  I  think,  for 
the  White  River  Utes  and  the  whole  Indian  service,  was  the  fact  that 
the  Indian  Department  did  not  at  that  time  conform  to  the  policy  which 
had  been  adopted  by  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners  and  certain 
religious  bodies,  that  the  agents  at  these  different  agencies  should  be 
nominated  by  them  and  they  be  held  responsible  for  the  nomination  of 
good  men.  Mr.  Dauforth  was  the  nominee  of  the  Unitarian  society;  he 
was  from  Boston,  and  had  very  faithfully  discharged  his  duty,  ancf,  as  I 
understand,  they  were  prepared  to  nominate  an  equally  good  man  to 
take  his  place.  It  was  thought  best,  however,  at  the  Indian  Office,  to 
make  that  appointment  themselves,  and  they  did  appoint  Mr.  Meeker, 
a  most  excellent  gentlemen,  whom  I  had  known  for  a  great  many  years, 
but  about  as  unfit  for  the  position  as  a  man  could  possibly  be  to  go  into  that 
country,  take  hold  of  the  White  River  Utes  and  manage  them  ;  destitute 
of  that  particular  tact  and  knowledge  of  the  Indian  character  which  is 
required  in  an  agent ;  a  man  of  too  many  years  to  begin  with,  unhap 
pily  constituted  in  his  mental  organization  for  any  such  place.  His 
whole  agency  and  administration  I  regard  as  almost  a  failure  ;  and  his 
management  of  the  Utes  when  they  became  troublesome,  and  his  threats 
to  bring  the  soldiers  in  (if  the  reports  we  hear  are  true,  I  don't  know  any 
thing  about  that  myself,  I  am  merely  giving  you  my  opinion  now)  had 
very  much  to  do  with  the  fical  massacre.  The  sending  in  of  the  troops — 
the  troops  were  coming  and  the  Indians  knew  that,  for  there  is  nothing 


46  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

of  any  moment  pertaining  to  the  Indians  but  what  they  understand; 
the  fact  that  the  Com  missioner  had  thought  it  best  to  recommend  that  they 
be  transferred  to  the  Indian  Territory  was  all  understood  by  the  wisest 
Indians,  and  they  did  not  want  to  go  there ;  they  felt  as  if  they  would 
like  to  remain  at  home  in  Colorado ;  all  these  causes,  the  failure  to  give 
them  their  supplies,  their  starving  condition  away  back,  Mr.  Meeker's 
unfortunate  appointment  and  administration,  awakened  the  old  Indian 
frenzy ;  the  soldiers  were  coming  in  just  as  it  had  been  said  they  should 
come;  they  were  met  out  there  with  this  fierce  fight ;  one  of  the  Indians 
who  was  in  the  fight  starts  for  the  agency  and  carries  the  news  there 
of  this  bloody  fight,  and  then  follows  in  this  wild  excitement  the  mas 
sacre.  That  is  about  the  story  as  I  understand  it. 

By  Mr.  GUNTER  : 

Q.  You  speak  of  these  supplies  being  withheld  for  one  winter  and 
spring;  were  the  dtes  in  a  starving  or  suffering  condition  during  the 
time  of  that  suspension  or  withholding  of  their  supplies? — A.  I  so  un 
derstand — that  they  walked  to  the  Union  Pacific  Road,  to  Rawlius.  Cor 
respondence  on  file  in  our  ofiice  here,  I  think,  would  give  you  dates. 

Q.  Was  it  practicable  at  that  season  to  get  the  supplies  to  them  ? — 
A.  At  what  season  1 

Q.  At  the  time  they  were  withheld. — A.  O,  it  would  have  been  prac 
ticable,  of  course,  to  transport  those  supplies  for  months. 

Q.  Months  before  they  got  them  ? — A.  Yes,  sir.  This  is  the  report  of  the 
autumn  of  1877,  from  which  I  have  read  an  extract,  and  the  agent  refers 
to  goods  purchased  nine  months  before,  when  he  says,  "  goods  pur 
chased  in  August  of  last  year  had  been  lying  in  the  railroad  depot,  175 
miles  away,  since  November  last." 

Q.  That  was  in  September,  1877? — A.  Yes,  sir.  It  was  in  the  spring 
of  1878  when  the  Indians  walked  over  to  Rawlius. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  IJave  there  been  any  complaints  of  supplies  from  that  time  to  this  ? 
—A.  Well,  I  have  heard  of  no  complaints  since  1878. 

Q.  But  there  was  complaint  up  to  1878? — A.  Yes,  sir.  This  was  in 
the  summer  of  1878  that  the  correspondence  was  between  Doctor  Crary 
and  myself  about  it,  and  I  was  in  Colorado  in  the  summer  of  1878. 

Q.  You  do  not  know  of  any  failure  since  that  time! — A.  I  do  not. 

Q.  Has  it  been  the  policy  of  the  Indian  Bureau  to  appoint  agents  at 
the  suggestion  of  certain  denominations  f — A.  Yes,  sir.  As  far  back  as 
1870,  in  the  former  administration,  the  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners 
were  requested  to  apportion  the  agencies  among  the  different  religious 
bodies  of  the  country,  asking  them  to  make  nominations  of  good  men, 
to  recommend  for  appointment  good  men  for  the  agency.  Those  recom 
mendations  would  go  to  the  Indian  Bureau  and  from  thence  to  the  Presi 
dent  and  he  would  appoint.  That  was  the  established  policy. 

Q.  Your  object  was  simply  to  get  good  men  ? — A.  Good  men,  and 
competent  men. 

Q.  For  whom  these  denominations  would  be  responsible? — A.  The 
denominations  would  feel  in  a  large  measure  responsible  for  the  class  of 
men  they  put  in.  Of  course  there  would  be  mistakes  made  sometimes, 
and  men  would  go  out  good  and  soon  fall — that  is,  occasionally. 

Q.  Do  you  know  any  reason  why  that  policy  was  departed  from  in 
the  case  of  Mr.  Meeker? — A.  No,  sir,  I  do  not.  I  think  Agent  Meeker 
was  regarded  in  the  department  as  an  excellent  man,  and  a  Colorado 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  47 

man,  and  a  Western  man,  and  they  thought  it  wise  to  try  the  experi 
ment. 

Q.  You  have  spoken  of  the  instructions  given  to  that  last  commission 
which  went  out  in  1878,  and  said  you  were  opposed  to  their  instruc 
tions. — A.  Well,  the  negotiations  contemplated  were  negotiations  which 
would  remove  them  to  the  Indian  Territory.  I  had  been  opposed  to 
removing  the  Indians  to  the  Indian  Territory ;  I  did  not  believe  that 
any  should  go  there,  but  that  every  community  should  keep  and  take 
care  of  its  own  Indians.  We  had  driven  them  to  the  Pacific  Ocean  and 
they  were  on  their  way  back,  pushed  out  here  and  there,  and  I  believed 
that  by  and  by,  no  matter  how  many  we  put  in  the  Indian  Territory, 
somebody  would  want  them  out  of  there  too,  the  white  people  would 
want  to  occupy  the  Territory,  and  the  railroads  would  want  their  lands, 
and  they  would  be  compelled  to  find  some  other  resting-place.  I  thought 
that  with  all  the  valuable  agricultural  land  there  was  in  Colorado,  the 
Utes,  who  owned  that  land,  ought  to  b.e  permitted  to  stay  on  it  and  be 
protected  on  it. 

Q.  Had  you  any  other  objections  to  the  instructions  given  to  that 
commission  I — A.  This  temporizing  about  paying  the  Indians  what  was 
due  them  I  objected  to.  I  did  not  think  it  was  fair  play,  and  I  was  not 
in  favor  of  that  way  of  dealing  with  them. 

Q.  Was  the  agreement  ever  carried  out? — A.  I  think  it  was.  There 
is  a  printed  volume  somewhere  (which  I  have  never  looked  over  myself) 
which  will  give  you  a  history  of  all  the  work  of  that  commission,  its 
singular  work  in  some  respects ;  for  example,  the  distribution  of  a  pound 
of  candy  to  an  Indian  to  get  him  sweetened  up  to  a  point  of  making  the 
desired  bargain,  and  ten  pounds  to  the  chief. 

Q.  Does  the  report  show  that? — A.  I  think  it  does.  If  it  does  not, 
there  are  papers  which  would  show  it.  The  secretary  of  that  commis 
sion  was  the  son  of  the  secretary  of  our  board,  Mr.  William  S.  Stickney, 
and  he  could  give  you  full  information  about  it.  He  could  also  give 
you  much  information  about  White  River,  which  point  he  visited  in  the 
%autumn  of  1878. 

Q.  Is  he  in  the  city  now  ? — A.  He  is  in  the  city.  He  is  a  very  intel 
ligent  young  gentleman,  who  I  presume  would  be  of  great  service  in 
enabling  this  committee  to  reach  correct  conclusions.  Also,  the  report 
of  Lieutenant  McOauley  would  be  a  very  valuable  document  for  this 
committee  to  examine.  Lieutenant  MeCauley  accompanied  the  com 
mission  as  an  officer  of  General  Hatch. 

Q.  Have  you  any  reason  to  believe  that  the  Indians  were  forced  in  any 
way  to  make  that  treaty,  or  that  they  were  dissatisfied  about  it  after 
wards  ? — A.  I  have  not  much  information  about  that,  nothing  that  I 
would  want  to  base  an  opinion  upon.  In  conversation  with  Ouray  he 
tells  me  that  it  was  a  source  of  great  irritation  among  them,  the  way 
that  commission  was  managed. 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  their  complaints  are  now,  and  how  they  justify 
their  action  out  there  ? — A.  Only  as  I  am  informed  by  Ouray.  I  have 
not  talked  with  the  other  chiefs.  I  propose  to  visit  them  and  confer 
with  them  if  it  shall  be  agreeable  to  the  Department  of  the  Interior. 

Q.  We  would  like  to  hear  Ouray's  complaints  and  his  account  of  why 
these  troubles  were  brought  on  ? — A.  Ouray  goes  back  to  the  beginning 
of  the  Bruuot  treaty  trouble,  the  failure  to  pay  the  Indians  their  money, 
the  encroachment  by  whites  all  the  while  upon  their  mineral  lands,  the  fail 
ure  to  give  them  supplies,  the  orders  forbidding  them  to  purchase  arms  and 
ammunition  on  the  reservation,  and  forcing  them  to  go  elsewhere  to  buy 
ammunition  to  kill  game  to  live  upon  on  the  reservation  $  and  I  think 


48  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

his  opinion  as  to  Mr.  Meeker's  fitness  is  about  the  same  that  I  have  ex 
pressed  to  you.  He  tells  me  that  a  delegation  of  the  White  Kiver  Utes 
came  to  Governor  Pitkiu  and  complained  of  Mr.  Meeker  and  his 
methods.  He  says  also  that  they  visited  the  agent  at  Los  Pinos  and 
gave  him  the  facts  tkat  they  wanted  communicated  to  the  department 
here  respecting  their  causes  of  complaint ;  Mr.  Abbott,  I  think  he  told 
me,  was  the  agent. 

Q.  Does  he  justify  in  any  way  this  massacre  at  the  agency? — A.  O, 
not  the  slightest. 

Q.  He  does  not  justify  or  excuse  it  at  all? — A.  Not  at  all,  except  that 
he  says  that  those  who  took  part  in  it  were  Indians  who  really  did  not 
understand  about  matters;  that  they  had  been  threatened  with  manacles 
and  with  the  soldiers,  or  the  soldiers  were  in  fact  coming  in,  and  the 
fight  had  taken  place  and  in  the  wild  passion  of  the  moment  came  the 
massacre.  Ouray  tells  me  that  it  is  simply  impossible  that  the  women 
should  have  been  outraged,  as  it  is  reported  they  were ;  that  he  has 
looked  into  the  matter  thoroughly  ;  that  they  all  said  to  Inspector  Pol 
lock  when  they  came  in  that  they  had  been  with  the  Indians  all  the 
time  as  one  family,  all  together,  and,  as  Ouray  said  to  me,  "  How  could 
an  Indian  do  that  with  his  own  wife  alongside  of  him  P  He  says  that 
it  is  an  afterthought  on  the  part  of  somebody  to  increase  the  feeling 
against  the  Utes.  He  looks  at  it  from  that  standpoint.  How  correct 
he  may  be  I  cannot  tell.  You  have  talked  with  him,  I  suppose  ? 

The  CHAIRMAN.  No ;  I  have  not. 

The  WITNESS.  I  think  Ouray  would  give  you  about  as  intelligent  a 
resume  of  the  whole  trouble  as  any  person  you  could  examine. 

Q.  Have  you  anything  to  add  to  your  general  statement  ? — A.  No, 
sir. 

By  Mr.  POEHLER  : 

Q.  Those  supplies  that  laid  at  Kawliusfor  nine  months,  what  was  the 
reason  that  they  were  not  transported  to  the  agency? — A..  The  con 
tractor's  failure,  I  understood,  to  discharge  his  duty. 

Q.  Could  they  have  been  transported  without  great  difficulty  between 
October  and  March  ? — A.  I  think  they  could  that  year.  You  notice  that 
Major  Thornburgh  had  but  very  little  difficulty  in  getting  in  there  the 
last  of  September  or  the  first  of  October,  and  a  contractor  for  trans 
portation  tells  me  that  there  have  been  times  when  they  could  go  in 
there  any  month  in  the  year.  I  have  no  doubt  that  it'  there  had  been 
an  intelligent  and  honest  effort  to  feed  the  Utes  at  that  agency  it  could 
have  been  done. 

Q.  Do  you  know  any  reason  why  those  supplies  were  not  sent  sooner r 
so  that  they  might  have  got  there  before  October  1  ?— A.  The  supplies 
had  been  waiting  at  Kawlins  for  nine  months,  lying  there  ready  to  be 
loaded  on  the  wagons. 

Q.  Was  that  under  the  present  administration  ?— A.  That  was  under 
the  present  administration.  The  report  of  the  agent  which  I  have  just 
read  gives  all  the  facts. 

Q.  That  period  of  nine  months  was  not  in  the  administration  of  the 
present  Commissioner  ? — A..O,  no,  sir.  As  to  complaints, against  the 
Commissioner  for  not  doing  his  duty,  I  should  be  inclined  to  be  more  se 
vere  upon  Commissioner  Smith  than  Commissioner  Hayt,  because  Com 
missioner  Smith  inaugurated  this  system  of  delay  which  Mr.  Hayt  failed 
to  correct  upon  coming  in.  If  upon  his  coining  into  the  office  he  had 
laid  right  hold  of  this  matter,  he  could  have  undoubtedly  fed  the  Utes. 

Q.  You  think  too  much  leniency  has  been  shown  the  contractors  ! — 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  49 

A.  No ;  they  were  pursuing  the  contractor  and  sending  him  to  the  pen 
itentiary,  but  at  the  same  time  they  were  letting  the  Utes  starve. 

Q.  Was  Agent  Meeker  a  Colorado  man  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  he  lived  at 
Greeley,  in  Colorado. 

Q.  A  man  acquainted  with  Indian  character?— A.  He  was  not.  Agent 
Meeker  had  been  raised  in  the  city  of  New  York  mostly  ;  he  was  a  jour 
nalist,  and  had  been  for  many  years  a  contributor  to  the  New  York 
Tribune  over  the  initials  N.  0.  M.  He  wyent  to  Colorado  to  found  the 
town  of  Greeley,  under  the  direction  of  Horace  Greeley,  and  he  did 
found  a  village  there,  which  has  grown  to  be  an  excellent  one.  That 
was  his  forte;  he  could  take  a  community  of  that  sort  and  do  good 
service,  but  he  was  eminently  unfitted,  in  my  opinion,  to  be  an  Indian 
agent.  A  gentleman  of  very  high  character  and  of  great  intelligence 
of  a  certain  sort — what  you  would  call  a  real  good  man — was  Agent 
Meeker,  but  not  acquainted  with  the  Indian  character.  It  was  a  very 
unfortunate  nomination,  in  my  opinion. 

Q.  Do  you  know  why  the  $25,000  a  year  was  withheld  ? — A.  I  have 
asked  that  question  a  great  many  times,  and  I  went  with  the  Secretary 
of  the  Interior  once  to  the  President  and  we  had  a  long  discussion  about 
it.  The  only  reason  they  ever  gave  was  the  fear  that  the  Indians  would 
buy  arms  and  ammunition  with  the  money. 

Q.  I  understand  you  to  say  that  the  Utes  were  opposed  to  moving 
to  the  Indian  Territory  ? — A.  Yes,  sir.  They  were  opposed  to  going 
away  from  Colorado  ;  not  specially  opposed  to  the  Indian  Territory,  but 
opposed  to  going  anywhere.  They  want  to  stay  in  their  own  country. 

Q.  This  last  commission,  by  what  authority  was  it  appointed? — A.  It 
was  appointed  under  an  act  of  Congress  which  provided  that  a  commis 
sion  should  be  appointed  to  treat  for  the  consolidation  of  all  the  Utes 
on  or  near  White  River.  I  think  that  is  about  the  language  of  the  law. 

Q.  A  special  act  for  that  purpose? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Mr.  AINSLEE  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  what  reason,  if  any,  was  given  by  the  Indian  De 
partment,  after  their  attention  was  called  to  the  fact,  for  the  failure  to 
supply  the  Utes  with  their  provisions  which  were  lying  at  Eawlins  ? — 
A.  There  were  certain  excuses  given ;  their  not  having  authority  to  act  in 
the  premises  or  make  new  contracts,  or  pay  the  freight  charges,  or  some 
thing  of  that  sort. 

By  Mr.  DEERING  : 

Q,  Do  you  understand  that  there  has  been  among  the  Utes  a  growing 
feeling  of  dissatisfaction  for  a  term  of  months  and  years  prior  to  this 
outbreak  which  seemed  likely  to  culminate  in  an  outbreak? — A.  I  think 
there  has  been  a  growing  dissatisfaction  among  the  Utes  ever  since  the 
Brunot  compact,  when  it  was  discovered  by  them,  as  they  say,  that 
the  agreement  included  so  much  more  of  their  land  than  they  intended 
to  cede,  and  that  according  to  their  statement  the  signatures  to  the 
compact  were  not  really  obtained  properly,  but  were  written  down  by 
somebody.  It  is  a  fact  that  Mr.  Brunot  left  the  council  without  pro 
curing  those  signatures  aud  that  runners  were  sent  out  among  all  the 
tribes  to  procure  them.  How  honestly  that  was  done,  of  course  we  have 
no  means  of  knowing,  but  the  fact  that  this  larger  section  of  laud  than 
the  Indians  intended  to  cede  was  included  in  the  agreement  was  one 
cause  of  dissatisfaction.  I  have  here  a  diagram  which  was  made  for  me 
by  Ouray  himself,  and  which  shows  the  position  of  these  lauds  according 
to  his  understanding.  He  indicates  here  a  mountain,  which  he  called, 
I  think,  Lone  Coon,  and  which  was  to  be  the  limit  of  the  ceded  lands, 
H.  Mis.  38 4 


50  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

and  he  says  that  by  the  agreement  the  line  was  put  down  here  [indi 
cating  on  the  diagram]  so  as  to  place  whites  on  each  side  of  the  South 
ern  Utes.  I  do  not  think  there  has  been  any  real  solid  contentment 
among  the  Utes  since  that  time.  A  careful  examination  of  all  the  re 
ports  of  the  agencies  will  show  you,  however,  that  there  has  been  as 
much  contentment,  if  not  more,  than  anywhere  else  at  the  White  River 
Agency,  and  more  progress  in  agriculture  and  in  schools  during  the  four 
years  of  Agent  Danforth's  administration. 

Q.  You  think  that  in  connection  with  that  treaty  the  Indians  felt  that 
they  had  been  overreached  or  deceived  ! — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  and  they  thought 
the  attempt  to  overreach  them  began  in  this  Hatch-McFarlaud  treaty, 
and  to  obtain  still  more  of  their  lauds  before  paying  them  the  money 
that  we  actually  owed  them  was  another  instance  of  our  disposition  to 
do  them  injustice. 

By  Mr.  AINSLEE  : 

Q.  I  understand  you  to  say  that  the  Indians,  or  some  of  them,  claimed 
that  they  never  signed  the  Brunot  treaty  at  all ;  that  the  signatures  were 
written  by  parties  not  authorized. — A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Mr.  ERRETT  : 

Q.  Have  you  been  on  this  White  River  Reservation? — A.  I  have  not. 

Q.  Then  you  don't  know  anything  about  the  value  of  the  lands  as 
agricultural  lauds  or  for  other  purposes? — A.  I  take  it  that  what  is  called 
Powell's  Valley,  on  the  White  River,  has  a  good  deal  of  good  arable  land. 
A  gentleman  who  has  traveled  very  carefully  all  through  that  region, 
Lieutenant  McCauley,  has  been  a  visitor  at  my  house  during  the  last 
summer,  and  from  him  I  have  learned  a  great  deal  in  regard  to  the  na 
ture  of  the  country.  I  got  the  impression  myself  in  1878  that  had  that 
commission  gone  to  work  at  what  Congress  intended  them  to  do,  and 
had  their  instructions  from  the  Indian  Department  been  in  conformity 
to  the  requirements  of  that  law,  somewhere  between  the  present  agency 
on  the  White  River  and  the  Uiutah  Valley  Reservation  in  Utah  we  might 
have  found  a  place  where  all  the  Utes  could  have  been  concentrated. 
In  that,  however,  I  might  have  been  mistaken. 

Q.  I  think  General  Adams  expressed  the  opinion  the  other  day  that 
the  White  River  Valley  is  not  suited  for  agriculture,  while  the  Grand 
River  Valley  is. — A.  Well,  that  is  in  the  same  general  region. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  I  understand  that  there  has  been  no  complaint  since  1878.  Do  you 
know  what  time  in  1878  there  were  complaints  about  the  failure  to  get 
these  supplies! — A.  I  don't  think  that  any  complaints  have  reached  my 
ears  since  the  autumn  of  1878  or  the  springtime  of  1879.  I  could  give 
you  from  my  Colorado  correspondence  the  exact  dates. 

Q.  So  far  as  you  know,  then,  the  present  Commissioner  has  corrected 
that  failure  from  that  time  on  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  But  he  had  not  corrected  it  up  to  that  time '? — A.  No,  sir.  I  think 
that  the  present  Commissioner,  after  he  became  fiitty  aware  of  the  situa 
tion,  after  he  got  fairly  in  his  seat,  did  the  best  he  could.  It  was  unfor 
tunate  for  the  whole  Indian  service  that  Commissioner  Hayt  could  not 
have  devoted  his  entire  time  to  his  duties  here.  He  tells  me,  and  so 
does  the  Secretary  tell  me,  that  it  was  understood  that  he  should  have 
as  large  a  portion  of  his  time  for  his  own  private  affairs  as  a  proper 
closing  of  them  up  might  require,  and  therefore  he  was  unable  to  be 
here  to  attend  to  these  important  duties.  I  have  no  doubt  in  my  own 
mind  that  had  this  administration,  when  it  came  into  office  in  the  spring  of 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  51 

1877,  fully  comprehended  the  exact  condition  of  things  among  the  Utes 
and  the  other  tribes,  we  would  have  been  saved  a  world  of  trouble.  We 
never  should  have  had  the  Pouca  infamy  on  our  hands;  neither  do  I 
believe  that  we  should  have  had  the  Ute  trouble.  If  the  Indian  Office 
had  been  administered  with  intelligence  and  vigor  from  the  very  begin 
ning  of  the  present  administration,  these  difficulties  might  have  been 
avoided.  The  Secretary  himself  admits,  as  you  will  see  in  the  public 
prints,  that  he  knew  nothing  about  Indian  Affairs — he  says  he  knew  as 
little  as  most  of  the  people  do  who  are  now  writing  about  them — and  he 
took  occasion  to  institute  an  investigation  which  occupied  several 
months.  In  the  first  months  of  his  administration  the  Poncas  were  re 
moved,  a  transaction  which  the  Secretary  would  never  have  permitted 
had  he  known  all  the  circumstances. 

Q.  Do  I  understand  you  to  say  that  the  instructions  of  the  McFarland- 
Hatch  commission  departed  from  the  law  ? — A.  The  law  contemplated 
the  consolidation  of  the  Utes  on  or  near  White  River.  . 

Q.  And  the  instructions  to  the  commission  were  to  transfer  them  to  the 
Indian  Territory? — A.  As  I  understand  the  instructions,  that  was  their 
general  tenor — to  see  if  the  Uteg  could  not  be  persuaded  to  go  over  to 
the  Indian  Territory.  Then,  too,  General  Pope  had  still  another  scheme 
which  he  submitted  to  the  commission,  to  put  the  Indians  on  the  Charm 
ing  River.  I  do  not  think  that  there  was  anything  done  towards  com 
plying  with  the  law  of  Congress,  at  least  not  while  I  was  with  the  com 
mission. 

By  Mr.  HASKELL  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  date  at  which  the  failure  to  forward  supplies 
from  Fort  Rawlins  became  conspicuous? — A.  Mr.  Haskell  understands, 
does  he  not,  that  the  goods  at  Rawlins  purchased  in  the  autumn  of 
1876  are  reported  by  the  agent  himself  in  1877  to  have  then  lain  in  the 
warehouse  nine  months.  The  agent  tells  me  that  he  was  constantly 
writing  about  them  and  I  have  heard  an  extract  from  his  report. 

Q.  I  simply  want  to  know  about  what  length  of  time  they  were  held 
there. — A.  They  had  been  there  nine  mouths  at  that  time,  and  they  lay 
there  during  the  autumn  and  winter  of  1877,  and  it  was  in  the  spring  of 
1878  when  the  Indians  went  over  to  Rawlins  to  see  about  them  them 
selves. 

Q.  The  present  Commissioner  came  into  office  in  May,  1877, 1  believe. 
— A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  at  that  time  these  goods  lay  there  undelivered  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ; 
and  they  had  been  there  for  nine  months. 

Q.  How  long  after  the  present  Commissioner  came  in  do  you  under 
stand  that  those  goods  lay  there? — A.  I  should  think  about  eight 
months. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  any  supplies,  food  or  clothing,  were 
issued  to  the  TJtes  from  Fort  Rawlins  during  that  fall  and  winter  from 
September,  1877,  until  the  spring  of  1878  ?—  A.  3To,  I  do  not. 

Q.  You  cannot  say  whether  any  supplies  were  issued  from  Fort  Raw 
lins  during  the  period  marked  by  the  incoming  of  the  present  adminis 
tration  of  the  Indian  Office  and  the  spring  of  1878. — A.  My  understand 
ing  is  that  there  were  not  any. 

Q.  No  supplies,  no  food,  and  no  clothing?— A.  I  do  not  know  as  to 
clothing.  It  is  food  that  I  am  speaking  of. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  in  December,  1877,  and  January,  1878,  there 
were  any  telegrams  sent  to  the  Indian  Office  from  the  agency  and  from 
Fort  Rawlins  calling  attention  to  the  fact  that  there  were  no  supplies 


52  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

issued  and  that  the  Indians  were  in  great  need? — A,  Only  from  the 
statement  of  Agent  Danforth,  who  said  that  he  was  constantly  writing 
and  telegraphing  on  the  subject. 

Q.  Did  not  Agent  Danforth  also  state  that  the  Indian  Office  tele 
graphed  and  wrote  and  ordered  supplies  between  the  date  of  the  incom 
ing  of  the  present  Commissioner  and  the  1st  of  April,  1878! — A.  He 
didn't  say  so  to  me. 

Q.  And  your  understanding  is  that  no  food,  flour,  coffee,  beans,  or 
anything  of  that  kind  was  purchased  by  the  Indian  Office  and  forwarded 
during  those  months? — A.  I  have  no  knowledge  that  there  was  any. 

Q.  Your  understanding  is  that  none  was  sent? — A.  I  have  no  knowl 
edge  that  any  was  sent. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  the  Indians  were  upon  their  reservation  dur 
ing  the  winter  from  the  time  of  the  incoming  of  the  present  administra 
tion  up  to  April  1,  1878? — A.  My  understanding  is  that  they  were  off 
the  reservation,  and  that  during  that  time  they  went  themselves  to  Raw- 
lins  after  supplies. 

Q.  Do  you  remember  whether  it  was  in  December  or  January,  or 
later? — A.  I  think  it  was  later,  in  the  spring-time. 

Q.  Not  until  spring? — A.  I  don't  think  they  did  until  spring-time,  but 
all  these  facts  can  be  ascertained  from  the  records. 

Q.  So  much  for  the  supplies  at  Rawlius:  and  you  attribute  the  out 
break  of  the  Utes  and  their  going  upon  the  war-path  very  largely  to 
this  alleged  failure  to  deliver  those  supplies  to  them  from  Fort  Eawlins 
during  the  period  marked,  say,  by  the  1st  of  October,  1877,  and  1st 
of  April,  1878?  You  think  that  was  one  cause  of  grievance? — A.  I 
think  that  is  one  of  the  causes. 

Q.  And,  in  your  judgment,  the  Indian  Office  was  derelict  in  its  duty 
during  those  months? — A.  I  think  it  was  derelict.  I  think  it  had  been 
very  derelict  in  its  duty  right  through  from  the  autumn  of  1876.  I 
think  that  Commissioner  Smith's  dereliction  was  very  great  indeed  in 
that  respect. 

Q.  That  McFarland  agreement  was  for  the  cession  or  purchase  of 
some  lands,  marked  upon  this  large  map  here,  by  that  changed  bound 
ary  ?  [Referring  to  the  map.] — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  you  think  that  the  stipulations  of  that  treaty  were  one  of 
the  causes  which  produced  the  outbreak  ? — A.  I  do. 

Q.  Those  lands  down  there  were  the  especial  property  of  the  South 
ern  Utes,  were  they  not? — A.  Those  Indians  are  called  Southern  Utes, 
but  they  owned  everything  in  common. 

Q.  You  understand,  do  you  not,  that  there  are  three  tribes  more  or 
less  distinct? — A.  I  would  call  them  rather  three  bands ;  they  are  all 
one  tribe. 

Q.  The  Southern  Utes  were  the  special  proprietors  and  occupants  of 
the  reservation  ?— A.  They  happened  to  occupy  that  portion  of  the 
lands.  There  are  three  bands — Ouray's,  Johnson's,  and  Douglas's — 
Ouray  being  the  chief  of  all  of  the  tribes. 

Q.  But  that  particular  land  traded  for  was  the  special  home  of  the 
Southern  Utes,  the  Uncompahgres;  nor  was  there  ever  any  outbreak 
by  the  Southern  Utes? — A.  No  real  outbreak;  there  was  trouble  at 
both  the  Southern  Ute  Agency  and  the  Los  Piuos  Agency,  but  no  such 
trouble  as  you  refer  to  in  your  question. 

Q.  The  Southern  Utes  killed  nobody  and  committed  no  outrages,  did 
they  ? — A.  I  think  not. 

Q.  And  yet  they  were  immediately  associated  with  the  McFarland 
treaty  by  reason  of  their  location  ? — A.  The  McFarland  treaty  was  made, 
I  think,  chiefly  at  Los  Finos. 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBR'EAK.  53 

Q.  Bat  it  related  to  lands  occupied  principally  by  the  Southern  Utes? 
— A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  outbreak  was  by  the  northern  band  of  White  River  Utes  ? — 
A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  They  commenced  the  commission  of  depredations? — A.  What 
depredations  did  they  commit? 

Q.  In  the  fight  that  has  occurred  between  the  Indians  and  soldiers, 
it  was  the  White  River  Utes  that  were  engaged  ? — A.  Yes. 

Q.  Then  it  would  be  fair  to  assume  that  there  was  some  cause  of 
grievance  for  the  White  Eiver  Utes  to  complain  of  in  order  to  send 
them  on  to  the  war-path  ?-— A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  do  you  think  that  the  stipulations  of  the  McParland  treaty,  in 
regard  to  the  southern  country,  was  the  main  cause  of  the  outbreak  of 
the  Northern  Utes? — A.  No,  sir;  I  have  already  stated  in  my  testimony 
at  length  the  different  causes,  as  I  view  them,  going  back  as  far  as  the 
misunderstanding  of  the  Brunot  treaty  in  1873,  taking  all  the  causes 
and  aggregating  them  all.  I  have  mentioned  that  as  one  of  the  causes, 
and  I  have  mentioned  the  appointment  of  Agent  Meeker  as  a  most  un 
fortunate  thing,  and  one  which  had  a  great  deal  to  do  with  bringing 
about  the  trouble. 

Q.  You  think  Agent  Meeker  was  a  good  man  though  not  acquainted 
with  Indian  character  ? — A.  I  do. 

Q.  The  disturbance  seems  to  have  been  about  the  White  River  Agency 
and  it  was  at  that  agency  that  these  strenuous  attempts  were  made  by 
Agent  Meeker  to  civilize  those  Indians,  was  it  not? — A.  Yes. 

Q.  And  the  Indians  did  not  take  kindly  to  agriculture  and  the  arts 
of  civilization.  There  was  a  conflict  between  the  Indians  and  the  agency 
employes,  in  reference  to  the  plowing  of  the  land  and  the  cultivating  of 
the  soil  ? — A.  I  so  understand.  It  is  the  fact,  however,  that  at  another 
agency,  under  another  agent,  the  Indians  had  been  taking  kindly  to  just 
that  sort  of  work  ;  not  to  any  very  great  extent,  it  is  true,  but  still  mak 
ing  a  constant  progress. 

Q.  They  had  done  better  in  that  respect  under  the  preceding  agent 
than  under  Agent  Meeker  ? — A.  Altogether. 

Q.  There  had  been,  I  believe,  sufficient  friction  between,  the  agent 
and  the  agency  employes  on  the  one  side,  and  the  Indians  on  the  other, 
in  regard  to  this  question  of  agriculture,  to  give  rise  to  unpleasant  words 
and  perhaps  blows;  there  had  been  more  or  less  quarreling,  had  there 
not '? — A.  That  I  do  not  know.  I  suppose  there  had  been  differences, 
but  I  don't  know. 

Q.  State  whether  or  not,  in  your  opinion,  one  cause  of  the  outbreak 
by  the  White  River  Utes  was  not  in  general  terms  the  disinclination  of 
the  Indians  to  adopt  these  agricultural  pursuits,  and  the  attempts  on 
the  part  of  the  agent  and  his  employes  to  civilize  them,  or  to  induce 
them  to  engage  in  those  pursuits  ? — A.  I  haven't  any  doubt  but  that 
the  unwise  efforts  adopted  by  Agent  Meeker  really  made  by  his  efforts 
in  that  direction  were  not  only  fruitless  but  caused  irritation. 

Q.  It  was  Agent  Meeker  who  feared  for  his  life  and  sent  for  the  troops, 
was  it  not  ? — A.  I  think  it  was. 

Q.  That  was  probably  occasioned  by  personal  differences  between  him 
and  his  employes  and  the  White  River  baud?— A.  Yes,  I  suppose  so. 

Q.  Do  you  know  any  other  reason  save  the  ill  advised  administration 
of  the  affairs  of  that  agency  which  would  lead  the  Indians  to  have  such 
hostility  towards  the  agent  ?  Could  it  have  been  the  treaty  stipu 
lations,  which  have  been  mentioned  here,  that  made  the  unpleasant  feel 
ing  between  Agent  Meeker  and  the  Indians  there  ? — A.  I  think  that  the 


54  UTE   INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

aggregation  of  all  these  irritations  which  had  been  going  on  for  six  or 
seven  years,  culminated  in  this  awful  misunderstanding  between  the  In 
dians  and  Mr.  Meeker.  They  had  reached  a  point  where  they  were 
ready  for  trouble,  and  I  think  that  in  spite  of  all  these  other  irritations 
in  regard  to  the  treaty  and  the  other  matters  that  I  have  mentioned, 
with  a  proper  man  at  that  agency,  the  bloody  massacre  would  have  been 
avoided. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  two  or  three  or  more  Indians  left  the 
reservation  and  set  fire  to  some  grass  and  timber  ? — A.  No,  sir ;  1  could 
scarcely  have  any  knowledge  of  that. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  or  not  Governor  Pitkin  sent  a  sheriff  and 
posse  up  there  to  arrest  the  Indians  who  were  charged  with  that  offense  ? 
— A.  I  do  not. 


WASHINGTON,  January  22,  1880. 

E.  A.  HAYT'S  examination  resumed. 

The  WITNESS.  Mr.  Chairman,  in  addition  to  my  testimony  already 
given,  there  are  three  statements  that  I  wish  to  reply  to  here.  One  is,  that 
a  recommendation  made  in  my  annual  report  for  the  year  1877,  to  move 
the  Indians  in  Arizona,  New  Mexico,  and  Colorado  to  the  Indian  Terri 
tory,  was  by  some  means  disseminated  among  the  Indians ;  and  that 
their  knowledge  of  that  recommendation  was  one  cause  of  the  outbreak 
of  the  White  Eiver  Utes.  I  fail  to  see  that  any  evidence  has  been  given 
that  a  single  copy  of  that  report  ever  found  its  way  to  the  Wrhite  River 
Ute  Reservation,  and  I  fail  to  see  that  the  Indians  acquired  any  knowl 
edge  whatever  of  that  paragraph  in  the  report.  Even  if  they  did,  how 
ever,  the  recommendation  was  general,  embracing  three  Territories,  and 
1  hardly  think  that  by  any  fair  construction  of  the  language  it  could  be 
made  offensive  to  the  White  River  Utes.  The  next  point  to  which  I  wish 
to  reply  is  the  statement  that  the  exchange  agreed  upon  by  the  com 
mission  and  the  Indians  of  1,800,000  acres  of  laud  for  a  smaller  reser 
vation  of  700,000  acres,  operated  to  irritate  the  White  River  Utes.  I 
think  it  was  shown  conclusively  in  the  letter  I  read  last  Monday  that  it 
did  not  convey  any  of  the  lands  of  the  WThite  River  Utes,  not  a  foot  of 
them  ;  and  therefore  that,  apparently,  could  not  have  irritated  those  In 
dians. 

Another  statement  is,  that  the  accumulation  of  the  annuity  in  the 
Treasury  was  a  cause  of  dissatisfaction  to  the  White  River  Utes — I  say 
to  the  White  River  Utes,  because  we  must  confine  our  attention  to  those 
particular  Indians,  and  not  take  in  the  whole  Ute  nation.  The  White 
River  Utes  are  the  only  ones  that  have  been  on  the  war-path.  The  Los 
Pinos  or  Uncompahgre  Utes  have  been  peaceful,  have  acted  as  media 
tors,  and  have  done  everything  in  their  power  to  allay  hostility,  and.  the 
Southern  Utes  have  also  been  entirely  peaceful. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Do  not  those  Indians  hold  all  that  land  in  common  ? — A.  They 
have  a  common  title,  but  there  is  a  virtual  division  between  the  three 
branches  of  the  tribe:  the  northern  part  is  considered  as  belonging  to 
the  White  River  Utes;  the  central  part  to  the  Los  Piuos  or  Uucompah- 
gres;  and  the  southern  part  to  the  Southern  Utes.  It  is  as  if  several 
heirs  make  a  partition  among  themselves  of  their  property  into  three 
divisions ;  they  have  a  common  title  and  they  all  have  to  convey  in  order 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  55 

to  give  title,  but  two  of  them  may  be  interested  in  the  property  con 
veyed,  and  the  third  may  not,  and  that  is  the  case  here.  The  White 
Elver  Utes  have  not  claimed  any  share  of  that  annuity;  on  the  con 
trary,  they  have  said  that  it  does  not  belong  to  them.  In  the  payment 
of  the  annuity  a  very  small  sum  has  been  set  apart  for  the  White  River 
Utes,  but  even  that  was  not  paid  them,  as  I  shall  show  you  before  I  get 
through. 

By  Mr.  HASKELL: 

Q.  What  annuity  is  ttyat? — A.  This  $25,000  a  year,  payable  under 
the  Brunot  treaty. 

Q.  You  say  that  the  White  Eiver  Utes  were  not  entitled  to  any  por 
tion  of  that  under  the  treaty  ! — A.  No,  sir;  they  are  not;  and  they  do 
not  claim  it  either.  Their  land  was  not  conveyed.  I  will  refer  the  com 
mittee  to  a  letter  dated  December  16,  1879,  and  addressed  to  the  Secre 
tary  of  the  Interior  by  me  for  transmission  to  Congress,  in  reply  to  a 
resolution  of  the  United  States  Senate  calling  for  certain  information. 

(The  witness  read  the  letter.) 

By  the  CHAIRMAN: 

Q.  When  was  that  letter  sent  to  the  Senate! — A.  December  16,1879. 
This  was  written  before  there  was  any  criticism  of  this  kind;  in  fact,  I 
never  heard,  until  last  Saturday,  the  criticism  in  the  form  in  which  it 
has  been  presented  to  this  committee.  It  was  an  entirely  new  view  of 
the  matter  ;  new  to  me,  at  least. 

Q.  Do  I  understand  now,  according  to  that  statement,  that  all  the 
moneys  due  under  the  Bruiiot  treaty,  had  been  paid  to  the  Indians  ? — 
A.  Except  about  $65,000.  Since  I  came  into  office  the  payments  have 
been  made,  I  understand.  When  I  came  into  the  office,  there  was  from 
seventy-five  to  eighty  thousand  dollars  due  them,  and  now  there  is  only 
$65,000,  showing  that  the  current  payments  have  been  made  since  I 
came  in. 

Q.  What  is  your  reason  for  not  paying  that  $65,000  ? — A.  The  reason 
is,  first,  that  we  do  not  wish  to  make  cash  payments  to  any  wild  Indians, 
but  prefer  to  furnish  them  with  stock  and  farming  utensils,  and  it  is  re 
served  for  that  purpose. 

Mr.  HASKELL.  I  understand  that  article  3d  of  the  treaty  requires   * 
that  the  Indians  shall  be  taught  agriculture. 

Mr.  GUNTER.  I  understand  that  it  was  merely  optional  with  the  de 
partment  whether  the  payment  should  be  made  in  cash  or  in  supplies 
of  this  kind,  but  that  it  had  become  customary  to  make  the  payments 
in  this  way  rather  than  in  cash. 

The  WITNESS.  Yes,  but  as  I  have  already  said,  we  do  not  make  any 
payments  in  cash  to  wild  Indians,  as  a  rule.  The  object  is  to  prevent 
them  from  expending  their  money  for  arms,  ammunition,  and  whisky, 
which  they  certainly  will  do  if  they  have  the  money.  The  government 
has  furnished  these  Indians,  as  I  have  shown  you,  about  $70,000  on  an 
average  for  a  good  many  years  past,  for  their  support  in  addition  to  this 
$25,000  annually. 

Mr.  HASKELL.  And  article  3d  of  the  treaty  provides  that  they  shall 
be  instructed  in  agricultural  arts,  and  shall  be  employed  on  the  reser 
vation  for  that  purpose,  so  that  something  had  to  be  kept  back  in  order 
to  carry  out  that  provision. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  Do  you  understand  that  article  to  control  this 
money? 

The  WITNESS.  I  do  not  understand  it  precisely  as  Mr.  Haskell  does 


56  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

I  refer  again  to  what  I. wrote  in  my  letter  on  that  point,  and  to  the 
statute. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN: 

Q.  Is  there  anything  in  the  treaty  which  forbids  or  enjoins  the  pay 
ment  of  that  money  in  cash  to  the  Indians?— A.  No,  sir.  It  is  left 
entirely  discretionary  with  the  department.  If  the  treaty  had  enjoined 
that  payments  should  be  made  in  cash,  they  would  have  been  made  so  5 
there  is  no  question  about  that. 

Q.  I  understood  you  to  say  that  the  White  »River  Utes  are  not  en 
titled  to  any  part  of  that  annuity? — A.  They  are  not. 

Q.  Have  they  received  any  part  of  it?— A.  They  have  never  received 
a  cent  of  it,  so  far  as  I  know. 

Q.  Neither  in  cash  nor  in  implements? — A.  I  cannot  say  that;  they 
may  have  received  some  agricultural  implements  out  of  that  fund,  but 
if  they  did  it  was  improperly  expended. 

Q.  How  did  you  learn  that  this  $1,500  that  you  have  mentioned  was 
sent  for  that  purpose  ?  How  was  the  mistake^  made  ?— A.  That  1  can 
not  explain  without  knowing  why  it  was  called  for.  It  was  placed  to 
the  credit  of  Mr.  Meeker  on  the  loth  of  September,  1879.  You  under 
stand,  of  course,  that  there  was  very  little  inquiry  in  regard  to  the  ques 
tion  whether  this  annuity  belonged  in  part  to  the  White  Eiver  Utes  as 
well  as  to  the  others,  until  we  came  to  inquire  into  the  causes  of  this 
outbreak,  and  then  we  found  that  they  really  had  no  equitable  right  to 
any  part  of  the  money. 

By  Mr.  GUNTER  : 

Q.  They  had  forfeited  it  by  non-compliance  with  the  condition  ? — A. 
No,  sir,  not  that;  but  the  Uncompahgres  and  Southern  Utes  had  sold 
a  part  of  their  lands  under  the  Brunot  treaty,  and  the  money  payable 
under  the  treaty  belonged  to  those  two  tribes,  and  not  to  the  White 
Kiver  Utes. 

Mr.  WADDILL.  Who  have  sold  none. 

The  WITNESS.  Who  have  sold  none — they  have  all  their  lands. 
By  the  CHAIRMAN: 

Q.  Then  this  $1,500  was  not  reserved  because  it  was  thought  that  the 
White  River  Utes  were  not  entitled  to  it  ? — A.  I  do  not  know.  I  found 
it  on  the  book  this  morning.  I  will  look  into  the  matter  and  explain  it 
hereafter.  The  committee  will  please  bear  in  mind  that  that  was  sent 
from  Washington  on  the  1st  of  September,  and  those  Utes  were  on  the 
war-path  on  the  29th  of  the  same  month,  so  that  probably  there  was  very 
little  time  in  which  to  have  expended  that  money.  It  frequently  hap 
pens,  however,  that  moneys  are  paid  out  in  that  way  the  matter  being 
readjusted  afterwards.  For  instance,  we  charge  that  amount  to  the 
White  Eiver  Utes,  and  hold  the  money  back  out  of  their  appropriation. 
That  would  be  the  way  to  cure  the  matter  on  the  books  of  our  office. 

By  Mr.  WADDILL  : 

Q.  Under  the  treaty  it  was  provided  that  this  $25,000  per  annum 
should  be  either  paid  to  the  Indians  or  invested  by  the  government 
beneficially  for  their  interest. — A.  Yes,  in  bonds. 

Q.  The  treaty  does  not  say  in  bonds,  but  it  says  that  it  shall  be  in 
vested.  Now  do  I  understand  you  that  all  the  moneys  due  those  In 
dians  since  you  came  into  office  have  been  paid  them — this  $25,000  a 
a  year? — A.  Yes,  and  more,  too. 

Q.  And  the  $65,000  now  unpaid  is  a  balance  left  over  since  Com 
missioner  Smith's  administration  ? — A.  From  the  previous  administra- 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  57 

tioD.  I  can  account  for  it,  because  I  understand  that  there  was  $75,000 
or  $80,000  due  to  those  Indians  under  that  provision  when  I  came 
into  the  office,  and  now  there  is  about  $65,000  j  which  shows  conclu 
sively  that  they  have  been  paid  what  they  have  been  entitled  to  since  I 
caine  into  the  office. 

Q.  Where  is  that  $65,000?— A.  In  the  United  States  Treasury. 

Q.  Is  it  subject  to  your  order  to  pay  them  ? — A.  It  can  be  paid.  The 
probability  is  that  if  there  had  been  no  outbreak  some  money,  or  its 
equivalent  would  have  been  paid  them  on  or  about  the  1st  of  October, 
but  that  was  about  the  time  of  the  outbreak,  and  therefore  there  has 
been  no  payment  this  current  year. 

Q.  With  whom  is  the  payment  discretionary  ? — A.  With  the  Presi 
dent. 

Q.  Can  you  pay  the  money  without  his  order?— A.  Certainly  not.  I 
make  a  recommendation  to  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  and  he  acts  for 
the  President  in  the  matter. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Why  have  you  not  used  that  $65,000  for  those  Indians  in  the  last 
two  years  ! 

The  WITNESS.  Excuse  me,  but  do  you  think  it  would  be  discreet  to 
pour  out  all  that  money  at  once  among  the  Utes  I 

The  CHAIRMAN.  1  do  not  know  ;  I  am  asking  you. 

The  WITNESS.  Well,  I  have  given  my  reasons  in  full  in  this  letter  to 
the  Senate  committee.  It  was  thought  unadvisable  to  pay  any  more, 
because  we  have  already  spent  $75,000  a  year  for  those  Indians  in  addi 
tion  to  the  $25,000. 

By  Mr.  DEERING  : 

Q.  Do  I  understand  that  you  have  spent  more  than  is  required  by  the 
treaty  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Mr.  WADDILL  : 

Q.  But  that  $65,000  is  theirs,  is  it  not  ? — A.  Yes  ;  undoubtedly,  it  is 
theirs. 

•  Q.  And  it  was  provided  that  each  year  it  should  be  paid  to  them,  or 
invested  for  their  benefit  ? — A.  Yes. 

Q.  Well,  is  it  invested  ? — A.  No,  sir,  it  is  not ;  but  that  is  also  a  mat 
ter  of  discretion.  If  we  had  not  in  view  the  object  of  settling  these  In 
dians  the  money  would  be  invested  at  once,  but  as  we  want  to  settle 
them  in  some  place  and  give  them  the  benefit  of  this  money,  we  have 
thought  it  advisable  to  leave  it  as  it  is  at  present. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Have  the  Indians,  to  your  knowledge,  complained  that  they  have 
not  received  the  money  to  which  they  were  entitled,  this  $65,000  ? — A. 
They  have  made  no  such  complaint. 

Q.  Have  any  of  them  complained  ? — A.  When  the  commission  of 
which  General  Hatch  was  a  member  went  down  to  make  a  treaty  with 
them,  they  did  complain  that  the  annuity  had  not  been  paid,  and  the 
payment  was  made  for  last  year;  and  this  year  another  paymentwould 
have  followed  provided  things  had  remained  peaceful.  I  do  not  think 
it  would  have  been  paid  in  money,  but  in  agricultural  implements  and 
houses.  Still,  there  is  no  use  in  building  houses  while  we  are  constantly 
expecting  to  have  the  Indians  removed ;  it  would  be  so  much  money 
wasted.  The  money  in  the  Treasury  to  their  credit  is  in  as  good  a  place 
as  it  can  be. 


58  UTK   INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  Except  that  if  it  were  invested  and  bearing  interest 
it  would  be  better. 

The  WITNESS.  Yes  ;  but  that  might  raise  another  question. 

Mr.  HASKELL.  If  the  sum  of  money  belonging  to  certain  Indians  is 
left  in  the  Treasury  of  the  United  States  under  a  provision  of  law  that 
it  shall  be  invested  at  a  certain  rate  of  interest,  doesn't  that  money  draw 
interest,  whether  it  is  actually  converted  into  bonds  or  not  ?  Is  not  that 
the  law  of  the  United  States,  and  does  it  not  control  all  these  Indian 
funds,  so  that,  if  the  money  remains  in  the  hands  of  the  government,  the 
government  pays  interest  I 

The  WITNESS.  I  think  it  requires  actual  investment  in  order  to  draw 
interest.  But  you  will  notice  this  fact:  our  bonds  are  at  a  premium, 
and  if  the  money  had  been  invested  a  year  ago  in  bonds,  and  we  had  to 
use  it  for  the  Indians,  we  would  have  only  95  cents  on  the  dollar  of  the 
amount  saved ;  so  that  investment  would  not  be  an  object  if  the  money 
was  to  be  used  soon. 

Mr.  WADDILL.  But  could  you  not  sell  the  bonds  back  again  if  you 
wanted  to  use  the  money  ? 

The  WITNESS.  We  find  that  every  time  we  buy  bonds  and  every  time 
we  sell  them,  we  have  to  pay  for  it ;  there  is  a  loss  in  the  transaction. 

By  Mr.  GUNTER  : 

Q.  Have  you  found  it  profitable  for  the  government  to  invest  money  in 
buildings  and  farming  utensils  for  the  Indians  ?  Have  they  utilized  them 
when  you  have  furnished  them;  I  mean  these  White  River  Indians  ? — A. 
Agent  Meeker  spent  a  good  deal  of  money  in  constructing  a  ditch  and 
furnishing  agricultural  implements.  Heremoved  the  agency  fifteen  miles 
farther  south  to  a  lower  altitude  and  a  milder  climate.  I  am  told  that 
sometimes  at  the  old  White  River  Agency  they  had  frost  every  month 
in  the  year,  so  that  there  was  no  encouragement  to  plant  or  sow,  because 
they  might  fail  to  reap  ;  but  Mr.  Meeker  had  put  up  a  large  number  of 
buildings  for  the  benefit  of  the  Indians,  and  had  dug  an  irrigating 
ditch,  and  the  Indians  had  worked  very  well  at  that,  and  his  plan  was 
to  get  nearly  1,000  acres  under  cultivation  for  the  Indians.  If  he  had 
'succeeded  in  that  it  would  have  contributed  very  largely  to  their  sup-% 
port  and  civilization,  and  it  was  possible,  where  the  present  White  River 
Agency  is  situated,  to  settle  them  and  set  them  to  work  in  that  way. 

Q.  I  had  an  idea  that  money  expended  in  that  way,  in  building  houses 
and  furnishing  farming  utensils,  would  be  thrown  away,  because  the 
Indians  would  not  use  either.— A.  We  find  that  the  Indians  generally 
do.  There  are  Indians  to  whom  we  give  cows,  who,  if  they  are  very 
hungry,  will  kill  their  cows;  but  that  is  rare. 

By  Mr.  AINSLEE  : 

Q.  I  think  I  understood  you  to  say  that  the  White  River  Utes  had 
stated  that  this  annuity  of  $25,000  did  not  belong  to  them? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  How  was  that  statement  made  ?  What  evidence  is  there  of  it  ?— 
A.  It  is  among  the  correspondence  in  the  office. 

Q.  Correspondence  received  from  the  agent  ? — A.  From  the  agent. 

Q.  That  the  White  River  Utes  disclaim  having  any  interest  in  this 
$25,000  annuity  ?— A.  Yes,  sir ;  that  they  said  it  did  not  belong  to  them. 

Q.  That  is  in  the  report  of  the  agent,  you  say  ?— A.  Well,  that  is  the 
information  in  the  office.  Just  where  to  find  it  I  cannot  tell  you,  but  I 
will  find  it  and  give  it  to  you. 

Q.  Nevertheless,  they  have  received  payments  on  thisannuity,  leaving 
a  balance  of  $65,000  still  due  ?— A.  No ;  I  do  not  believe  the  White 
River  Utes  have  received  anything.  There  was  $1,500  sent  them  as  I 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  59 

have  said,  last  September,  but  that  has  not  been  paid  to  them  and  it 
will  be  covered  into  the  Treasury. 

Q.  In  the  letter  which  you  have  read,  the  department  took  the  ground 
that  they  had  better  not  pay  over  any  of  these  moneys,  in  view  of  the 
possible  contingency  of  the  Indians  being  removed  to  another  reserva 
tion  ? — A.  Tes,  sir. 

Q.  Is  that  the  policy  of  the  department  to  withhold  payments  on  the 
supposition  that  the  Indians  are  to  be  removed  at  some  future  period  ! 
— A.  Wherever  there  is  a  discretion  allowed  that  is  the  policy  ;  where 
the  law  is  mandatory  the  money  is  paid. 

Q.  And  that  is  the  ground  taken  in  regard  to  these  White  River  Utes, 
that  there  should  be  no  payment  because  of  the  prospect  of  their  being 
removed  ? — A.  There  was  none  due  them  at  any  rate.  Their  lauds 
were  not  conveyed  at  all.  This  $65,000  is  to  the  credit  of  the  whole 
nation,  but  the  White  River  Utes  do  not  participate  in  it  because  they 
did  not  part  with  their  lands,  as  I  have  already  explained. 

Q.  Then,  also,  where  there  is  a  supposition  that  the  Indians  are  dis 
posed  to  buy  arms  with  their  money,  no  payments  will  be  made  to  them  ! 
— A.  None  in  cash.  Peaceful  Indians,  engaged  in  agricultural  pursuits, 
we  pay  in  cash  ;  that  is,  we  give  them  cash  annuities. 

Q.  On  what  does  the  department  decide  in  those  cases — the  reports  of 
the  agents,  or  outside  information?  I  mean  in  regard  to  the  Indians 
buying  arms  and  ammunition. — A.  In  respect  to  the  Los  Finos,  and 
in  tact  all  the  Utes  of  Colorado,  I  would  say  that  we  have  regarded 
them,  and  I  think  very  properly,  as  the  most  warlike  among  all  our  In 
dians,  and  the  White  River  Utes  are  the  least  civilized  part  of  the  na 
tion.  Tbe  Los  Pinos  raud  the  Southern  Utes  are  in  advance  of  them. 
The  White  River  Utes  have  been  roaming  about  a  great  deal.  Then, 
too,  they  have  g«t  plenty  of  money  in  this  way  :  In  July  last  they  went 
into  North  Park,  set  fire  to  the  woods,  hunted  and  killed  game  a  great 
deal  more  than  they  could  use — killed  them  for  the  peltries  and  sold 
those  peltries  to  buy  arms  and  ammunition  and  whisky  outside  of  the 
reservation.  They  have  been  roaming  ever  since  I  have  known  any 
thing  about  them,  and,  I  think,  for  many  years  before.  If  they  were 
settled  down  to  agriculture,  the  policy  pursued  with  them  would  be 
quite  different. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  You  have  a  report  from  a  gentleman  named  Jerome,  the  agent  of 
the  board  of  Indian  commissioners,  who  went  down  for  the  purpose  of 
inspecting  those  Indians  ;  do  you  know  what  that  report  stated  ? — A. 
I  do  not ;  I  never  saw  it.  The  reports  made  to  the  board  of  Indian 
commissioners  do  not  come  to  the  Indian  Office,  unless  sent  there  spe 
cially. 

By  Mr.  DEERING  : 

Q.  You  have  stated  that  these  Utes  could  hardly  have  thought  that 
they  were  specially  referred  to  in  the  recommendation  in  your  report 
regarding  the  removal  of  certain  Indians  to  the  Indian  Territory,  be 
cause  it  related  to  three  territories;  what  did  you  mean  by  that? — A. 
I  said  that  the  recommendation  related  to  the  Indians  residing  in  the 
Territories  of  Arizona  and  New  Mexico,  and  the  State  of  Colorado  ;  that 
the  proposition  was  to  remove  them  to  the  Indian  Territory. 
By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  It  has  been  stated  here  that  the  Indians  complain  that  the  gov 
ernment,  through  its  officials,  desires  to  drive  them  out  of  Colorado,  and 


60  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

it  has  been  intimated  further  that  you  had  some  personal  interest  to 
subserve  in  that  business ;  is  there  any  truth  in  that  statement  ? — A, 
So  far  as  my  having  any  personal  interest  in  the  State  of  Colorado,  the 
fact  is  that  I  haven't  a  dime's  interest  there,  directly  or  indirectly  ;  I  do 
not  own  any  mining  property  there,  or  anything  under  the  sun  in  Colo 
rado. 

Q.  You  are  not  engaged  in  any  speculation  there  ? — A.  I  am  not 
engaged  in  any  speculation  there  and  never  have  been.  I  have  never 
invested  a  penny  in  a  miue  in  Colorado,  although  a  good  many  have  to 
their  sorrow.  1  would  say  further  that  my  attention  was  called  early 
to  the  peculiar  position  of  these  Indians  in  Colorado.  As  I  have  al 
ready  explained,  there  is  a  labyrinth  of  600  square  miles  there,  in  which 
the  Indians  are  perfectly  at  home,  and  I  believe  that  a  war  with  the 
Utes,  if  one  should  break  out,  would  outlast  the  Serninole  war  in  time, 
and  exceed  it  in  cost.  I  believe  that  if  the  whole  body  of  the  Utes 
went  on  the  war-path  it  would  take  an  immense  sum  to  overpower  and 
capture  them — enough  to  support  the  whole  of  the  Indian  tribes  for  five 
years,  if  not  more.  They  could  call  upon  the  Navajoes,  a  band  of 
11,000  Indians  affiliated  with  the  Utes,  and  able  to  furnish  1,500  or 
2,000  warriors.  Our  troops  are  not  acquainted  with  the  country,  and 
they  would  be  at  the  mercy  of  the  Indians  at  every  point.  As  you  saw, 
about  125  men  of  the  White  Kiver  Utes  put  on  the  defensive  190  men 
under  Thorn  burg.  The  Indian  Jack  counted  Thornburgh's  troops  as 
they  crossed  Bear  River,  and  they  told  one  of  the  employes  of  the 
agency  that  there  were  190  troops,  and  that  they  were  coming  to 
the  agency. 

Q.  Do  you  think  it  wise  to  take  those  Indians  from  Colorado  to  the  In 
dian  Territory  ? — A.  There  is  a  very  wide  difference  of  opinion  in  regard 
to  that.  The  reason  that  I  have  favored  it  is  this :  Thejndian  Territory 
has  enough  fertile  land  to  enable  those  Indians  to  settle  down  comfortably. 
It  has  a  superabundance  of  fertile  land.  Again,  the  country  is  not 
broken,  ridged,  and  labyrinthine  like  this  region  in  Colorado ;  it  is  a 
country  where  the  Army  could  use  artillery ;  and  wherever  our  troops 
can  use  artillery  the  Indians  know  very  well  that  it  is  useless  for  them 
to  go  upon  the  war-path,  so  that,  as  a  defensive  measure,  I  think  it  would 
be  wise  to  take  them  out  of  their  fast  i esses  and  put  them  where  they 
will  be  less  formidable,  and  where  they  can  be  supported  by  agriculture. 
If  you  were  to  remove  them  to  the  Uiutah  Agency  in  Utah,  it  would  cost 
nearly  ten  cents  a  pound  to  get  in  their  supplies,  and  you  would  feed 
them  there  at  an 'enormous  expense.  There  is  no  other  point  where  they 
can  be  fed  so  cheaply  as  in  the  Indian  Territory,  except  perhaps  on  this 
little  reservation  of  700,000  acres  indicated  on  the  map.  I  think  they 
could  be  fed  there  more  cheaply  than  at  any  other  point  inside  of  Colo 
rado.  I  think,  then,  that  if  we  wish  to  avoid  expensive  wars  and  to 
save  the  lives  of  our  soldiers,  it  is  very  desirable  to  put  these  Indians 
out  of  their  fastnesses  in  Colorado.  Then,  too,  as  I  have  explained  else 
where,  there  is  a  large  mining  population  pouring  rapidly  into  Colorado, 
which  must  necessarily  be  supported  largely  out  of  the  soil  of  that  State. 
Now,  there  is  very  little  arable  land  in  Colorado.  In  all  those  12,000,000 
of  acres  there  is  very  little  arable  land.  I  doubt  whether  there  is  10 
per  cent.,  taking  the  whole  extent  of  the  country,  and  that  land  is  needed 
for  the  support  of  the  white  population.  Of  course,  I  would  not  take 
these  Indians  to  the  Indian  Territory  unless  the  government  first  p  ud 
them  every  dime  that  was  due  them. 

Q.  But  looking  to  the  interest  of  the  Indians  themselves,  do  you  think 
that  our  experience  with  the  Poncas  and  Nez  Perces  would  teach  us 


UTE    INDIAN   OUTBREAK.  61 

that  that  would  be  good  policy  ? — A.  I  would  not  take  the  White  River 
Utes,  but  I  would  take  the  Los  Pinos  and  the  Southern  Utes,  who  be 
long  to  a  .warmer  region.  The  difference  between  their  territory  and 
the  Indian  country  is  not  very  great.  Possibly  they  would  lose  some 
lives,  but  as  soon  as  they  became  acclimated  they  would  be  better  there. 
That  would  require  two  years,  and  after  that  they  would  be  healthy. 
Now,  the  Poncas  and  the  Pawnees,  after  they  have  become  acclimated 
in  the  Indian  Territory,  can  live  there  as  well  as  in  Nebraska.  I  cer 
tainly  do  not  favor  sending  any  strictly  Northern  Indians  to  that  Ter 
ritory,  and  my  recommendation  in  regard  to  the  removal  of  these  In 
dians  has  been  very  mildly  put,  and  in  a  very  general  way.  My  report 
of  this  year  recommends  their  settlement  in  the  Indian  Territory  or 
elsewhere.  I  am  not  wedded  to  any  particular  theory  of  that  kind ;  I 
want  to  do  the  best  for  the  Indians  and  the  best  for  the  people  of  the 
United  States. 

By  Mr.  WADDILL  : 

Q.  Speaking  of  the  policy  of  moving  these  wild  Indians  into  the  Indi 
an  Territory,  what  effect  do  you  think  the  filling  up  of  that  country  with 
wild  Indians  will  have  on  the  States  bordering  on  that  Territory — Texas, 
Arkansas,  Kansas,  and  Missouri? — A.  That  was  the  policy  ten  years 
ago,  when  the  Territory  was  set  apart.  My  impression  is  that  if  you  put 
the  Indians  there  and  establish  military  posts  on  the  border,  the  white 
people  will  be  safer  than  they  are  to-day,  because  you  can  establish  your 
line  of  strong  posts  and  the  Indians  will  be  in  a  sense  corraled,  and  the 
white  people  will  be  safer  for  that  reason. 

By  Mr.  GTJNTER  : 

Q.  Don't  you  think  it  will  tend  to  demoralize  the  partly  civilized  tribes 
already  there  ? — A.  No ;  I  do  not  think  so.  I  think  the  Indians  will 
civilize  faster  without  contact  with  the  white  people  than  with  it.  We 
find  that  to  be  the  case  among  the  Sioux.  We  have  got  them  isolated 
in  Dakota  now,  and  they  have  made  immense  strides  in  the  last  eighteen 
months.  I  have  a  letter  from  a  chief  which  is  of  great  interest.  He 
alludes  to  the  fact  that  they  are  engaged  in  trading  and  freighting; 
he  says  that  the  Indian  agent  went  to  Fort  Robinson  to  get  $10.000  in 
money  to  pay  the  Indians  for  their  labor  in  freighting,  and  that  the  In 
dian  police  furnished  him  an  escort  to  the  fort  and  back  again  ;  and  in 
that  way  he  went  in  perfect  safety  through  a  country  which  has  been 
within  a  short  time  filled  with  outlaws  of  the  worst  character.  This 
chief  expressed  the  greatest  surprise  at  the  transformation  in  his  peo 
ple  ;  he  can  hardly  realize  that  those  wild  Indians  are  now  engaged  in 
peaceful  pursuits  and  have  no  troops  near  them.  Neither  of  those  res 
ervations  has  any  troops  near  it.  The  Rosebud  is  147  miles  distant  from 
the  nearest  military  post,  Fort  Randall,  and  the  Pineroot  Reservation  is 
65  miles  distant,  yet  we  have  had  perfect  order  there. 

By  Mr.  POEHLER  : 

Q.  Would  the  Utes  consent  to  be  removed  to  the  Indian  Territory,  do 
you  think? — A.  I  am  glad  you  have  raised  that  question,  for  I  would 
not  remove  them  without  their  consent  fairly  obtained;  and  every  recom 
mendation  I  have  ever  made  in  regard  to  the  removal  of  Indians  is  based 
upon  the  idea  that  their  consent  must  be  fairly  and  squarely  obtained, 
unless  they  have  been  on  the  war-path  and  have  forfeited  their  treaty 
rights ;  such  Indians  might  properly  be  placed  at  the  discretion  of  the 
government. 

Q.  If  they  did  not  consent,  however,  it  would  be  very  difficult  to 


62  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

remove  them,  as  they  inhabit  these  labyrinthine  fastnesses  which  you 
describe? — A.  Well,  I  think  it  is  worth  a  trial,  if  you  determine  to  keep 
the  Indian  Territory  for  the  Indians,  but  if  it  is  determined  not  to  put 
any  more  Indians  into  that  Territory,  then,  of  course,  the  idea  must  be 
abandoned. 

By  Mr.  WELLBORN  : 

Q.  Keferriug  to  the  matter  suggested  by  Mr.  Waddill,if  those  Utes  were 
located  in  the  Indian  Territory,  would  not  they  raid  into  the  adjoining 
States  and  harass  the  people,  unless  they  were,  as  you  express  it,  cor- 
raled  there  by  a  military  force  sufficient  for  that  purpose! — A.  We  can 
judge  of  what  they  will  do  from  what  has  been  done  in  the  last  few 
years.  There  is  only  one  baud  that  has  raided  through  Kansas  within 
the  last  few  years  from  the  Indian  Territory,  and  I  think  the  danger 
would  be  very  much  diminished  if  we  had  more  Indians  gathered  to 
gether  there  and  larger  military  forces  along  the  border.  If  you  con 
centrate  the  Indians  you  can  concentrate  the  military,  but  if  you  scatter 
the  Indians  you  have  to  scatter  and  divide  your  military,  so  that  it  takes 
a  long  time  to  bring  together  even  a  force  of  100. 

Q.  Don't  you  think  that  the  presence  of  a  military  force  in  the  Terri 
tory  would  be  necessary  to  protect  the  more  civilized  tribes  from  the 
aggressions  of  the  wilder  Indians? — A.  No,  sir.  The  semi-civilized 
tribes  have  never  been  attacked  by  the  wild  Indians.  They  live  in  per 
fect  harmony.  They  had  a  fair  at  Muskego  last  September  and  there 
were  delegates  in  attendance  from  the  wild  tribes ;  and  they  were  wel 
comed  there  very  cordially,  and  everything  was  harmonious. 

Mr.  HASKELL.  I  wish  to  call  the  attention  of  the  Commissioner  to  the 
fact  that  the  law  setting  apart  the  Indian  Territory  does  not  admit  of 
the  location  of  wild  tribes  there. 

Mr.  EREETT.  The  Choctaws'  .pait  of  it  was  given  them  in  fee  sim 
ple.  Surely  the  government  is  not  going  to  take  away  a  fee  simple. 

Mr.  HASKELL.  My  proposition  is  that  that  Territory  was  set  apart 
for  peaceful  Indians,  and  that  you  cannot  locate  wild  Indians  there  under 
the  present  law. 

The  WITNESS.  1  wish  to  say  that  1  am  by  no  means  wedded  to  the 
idea  of  putting  these  Indians  into  the  Indian  Territory.  I  simply  think 
that  if  that  is  the  policy  of  Congress,  of  course  it  must  be  carried  out, 
but  if  it  is  not,  and  from  the  action  taken  at  the  last  session  it  seems 
not  to  be,  then,  of  course,  no  Indians  from  New  Mexico,  or  Arizona,  or 
Colorado  can  be  sent  there. 


WASHINGTON,  January  22, 1880. 
S.  A.  CHERRY  sworn  and  examined. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  Please  state  what  position  you  occupy  in  the  Army  and 
where  you  are  stationed. — Answer.  I  am  second  lieutenant  in  the  Fifth 
Cavalry,  stationed  at  Fort  D.  A.  Kussell. 

Q.  This  committee  is  charged  with  the  investigation  of  the  late  Ute 
outbreak.  If  you  have  any  information  upon  that  subject  we  will  be 
glad  to  have  you  state  it,  and  also  your  opportunities  for  getting  such 
information. — A.  As  to  the  causes'of  the  outbreak  I  have  no  informa 
tion  to  give. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  fight  between  the  soldiers  and 
the  Indians  1  If  so,  please  state  how  it  commenced  ;  what  part  you 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  63 

took  in  it,  if  any,  and  all  you  know  in  regard  to  it. — A.  I  left  Fort  D. 
A.  Kussell,  my  station,  on  the  20th  of  September,  1879,  and  joined 
Major  Thornburgh's  command  at  Fort  Steele.  I  was  appointed  adju 
tant  of  the  command  by  Major  Thornburgh,  and  my  duties  were  such 
that  I  had  every  opportunity  of  knowing  what  his  orders  were.  I  also 
wrote  the  letters  to  Mr.  Meeker,  and  made  copies  of  all  letters  received 
from  him.  When  we  arrived  at  Bear  River  we  met  the  first  delegation  of 
Indians  from  the  agency,  Jack  and  about  ten  others.  That  was  about 
fifty  miles  from  the  agency.  Jack's  purpose  in  coming  there,  I  presume, 
was  to  ascertain  the  number  of  troops,  and  our  object  in  going  to  the 
agency.  1  form  that  opinion  from  what  occurred.  1  was  sent  to  Peck's 
ranch,  about  two  miles  below  our  camp,  to  find  out  when  the  mail  was 
to  go  back,  and  when  1  got  within  about  500  yards  of  the  ranch  I 
met  two  Indians  coming  into  the  timber.  Mr.  Eankin  was  with  me. 
When  the  Indians  first  saw  us  they  dropped  down  as  if  they  were  sur 
prised  at  seeing  us,  and  acted  as  if  they  had  been  sent  to  spy  out  our 
numbers  and  our  movements.  One  of  the  Indians  started  back  to  the 
ranch  ;  the  other  one  went  with  us.  When  we  neared  the  ranch  we 
saw  a  number  of  Indians  peering  out  from  behind  the  cabin.  Mr.  Rankin 
went  in  to  see  about  the  mail,  and  Jack  and  these  other  Indians  gathered 
about  me.  Jack  wanted  to  know  what  the  troops  were  coming  for  and 
what  was  the  matter.  His  language  was,  u  What  troops  come  for  ?  What 
matter  °l  "  I  told  him  that  we  had  heard  that  Mr.  Meeker  had  not  been 
treating  them  just  right,  or  somethiugof  that  kind,  and  that  we  were  come 
down  to  see  what  the  trouble  was,  and  I  asked  him  to  come  back  to  our 
camp  and  see  the  big  chief,  meaning  Major  Thornburgh.  He  said  he 
would  see ;  so  he  had  a  talk  with  the  other  Indians,  and  he  agreed  to 
go  with  us  to  the  camp. 

Q.  Was  there  any  evidence  of  hostility  on  the  part  of  the  Indians  at 
that  time  ? — A.  No,  sir ;  not  at  that  time.  Jack,  with  the  other  Indians, 
came  up  and  had  a  talk  with  Major  Thornburgh  and  all  the  officers  at 
Major  Thornburgh's  tent.  Major  Thomburgh  asked  Jack  to  go  with 
him  to  the  agency.  He  told  him  his  object  in  going  down.  I  won't  say 
that  he  told  him  his  object,  but  he  told  him  that  his  intentions  were 
peaceable ;  that  he  was  going  down  to  see  what  the  trouble  was.  Of 
course  he  did  not  wish  to  arouse  the  Indians'  suspicions  or  give  them  to 
understand  that  we  were  going  down  to  fight  them ;  he  gave  them  to 
understand  that  we  were  going  down  to  settle  the  difficulties  between 
them  and  Mr.  Meeker.  We,  of  course,  knew  at  the  time  that  Jack  was 
there  to  count  the  troops  and  pick  up  information  of  that  kind,  and 
Major  Thornburgh  said  to  me  after  Jack  went  away,  "  If  I  had  the 
power,  or  if  I  thought  it  expedient  under  the  circumstances,  I  should 
take  Jack  and  these  fellows  in  with  me ;  but  if  I  should  do  so  the  whole 
country  would  be  aroused  and  would  say  that  I  brought  on  the  trouble. 
These  fellows  have  come  here  to  spy,  and  it  would  be  a  good  move  to 
take  them  and  hold  them  as  hostages,  but  if  I  should  do  it  I  would  be 
blamed  by  everybody  all  over  the  country,  and  my  orders  are  such  that 
I  have  to  obey  the  commands  of  Mr.  Meeker,  so  I  would  not  feel  justi 
fied  in  doing  it.'7  Major  Thornburgh  had  asked  Jack  to  come  and  meet 
us  at  the  ford  the  next  morning.  He  sent  me  down  with  ten  men  to  see 
if  Jack  was  there,  and  if  not,  I  was  to  go  on  and  try  to  persuade  him 
to  go  with  us.  I  went  down  but  did  not  find  Jack.  I  then  started  for 
the  ranch  and  met  Jack  and  two-other  Indians.  I  tried  to  persuade 
him  to  go  with  us,  but  he  said,  uNo,  no;"  that  he  was  going  to  the 
agency ;  that  the  others  bad  gone  and  he  was  going  with  these  other 
Indians. 


64  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

Q.  It  was  to  the  agency  that  you  were  trying  to  persuade  him  to  go, 
was  it  not  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  was  trying  to  persuade  him  to  go  with  us  to 
the  agency,  but  he  said  no,  that  he  would  go  at  once — "  Me  go  to  day." 
Of  course  it  would  not  take  him  long  to  ride  into  the  agency ;  probably 
he  got  there  that  night.  Then  at  Williams  Fork,  an  Indian  named 
"Colorado,"  "Bummer  Jim,"  Henry  the  interpreter,  and  Mr.  TCskridge, 
one  of  'the  agency  employes,  came  to  our  camp  with  a  letter  from  Mr. 
Meeker,  stating  that  the  Indians  were  very  much  excited,  and  that,  in 
hisopinion,  Major  Thornburgh  had  better  stop  with  his  command  at  some 
convenient  point  and  come  in  himself  to  the  agency,  as  the  Indians  had 
had  a  big  talk  and  had  requested  that  Major  Thornburgh  should  come 
in  with  five  soldiers.  Major  Thornburgh  called  the  officers  together  and 
held  a  council,  and  then  wrote  a  letter  to  Mr.  Meeker,  saying  that  he 
would  come  in  with  five  soldiers,  but  that,  in  the  mean  time,  he  would 
move  on  until  he  found  some  convenient  camping  point  within  striking 
distance  of  the  agency.  That  is  the  language  that  he  used. 

Q.  What  distance  were  you  from  the  agency  then  ? — A.  About  thirty- 
five  miles. 

By  Mr.  DEERING  : 

Q.  What  was  meant  by  "  striking  distance"  ? — A.  What  Major  Thorn 
burgh  meant  was  that  he  would  move  on  to,  a  point  near  enough  to  the 
agency,  within  ten  or  twelve  miles,  to  make  his  command  available  in 
case  any  trouble  arose  when  he  got  to  the  agency. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  What  was  the  character  of  the  country  where  you  were  then,  for 
camping  purposes  f — A.  There  was  grass  and  timber,  but  not  in  suffi 
cient  quantity,  as  it  had  been  burnt  off  by  the  Indians.  Another  point 
was  that  it  was  a  very  bad  place  to  camp,  surrounded  by  high  bluffs,  so 
that  if  the  Indians  had  chosen  to  attack  us  there  the  whole  command 
could  have  been  annihilated  at  once.  That  was  one  of  Major  Tborn- 
burgh's  reasons  for  moving  on,  and  he  had  also  in  view  this  object  of 
getting  to  some  point  within  striking  distance  of  the  agency  in  case  any 
trouble  should  occur.  He  sent  this  letter  to  Mr.  Meeker.  Copies  of  all 
these  letters  can  be  obtained  from  the  adjutant-general  of  the  Depart 
ment  of  the  Platte,  as  copies  were  made  and  sent  two  days  before  the 
fight.  This  was  on  the  27th.  On  the  28th  we  marched  only  about  eleven 
miles.  There  we  found  sufficient  water  for  camping  purposes,  springs 
only.  It  was  not  a  good  place  to  stop,  and  the  next  day  we  moved  up 
to  Milk  River.  There  we  saw  fresh  trails  and  indications  of  a  large 
body  of  Indians,  and  the  wagon  train  having  arrived  at  Milk  River  they 
stopped  to  water  the  stock.  Major  Thornburgh's  orders  were  to  move 
on  about  four  miles  beyond  that.  I  should  have  said,  though,  that  at 
our  camp  at  Deer  Creek,  Major  Thornburgh  had  held  another  council 
and  obtained  the  opinions  of  the  officers  as  to  how  far  we  ought  to  go, 
and  it  was  decided  to  move  just  through  Coal  Creek  Canon,  which,  from 
the  information  given  us  by  our  guide,  we  understood  would  be  a  very 
difficult  place  to  get  through  in  case  of  any  trouble.  It  was  decided  to 
go  to  the  top  of  the  ridge  on  this  side  of  the  canon  on  the  29th,  and 
camp  there,  and  then  to  move  through  the  canon  at  night,  so  as  to  be 
on  the  other  side  in  the  morning,  which  would  put  us  within  about 
twelve  miles  of  the  agency,  where  we  would  camp,  and  Major  Thorn 
burgh  would  take  five  soldiers  and* go  in. 

Q.  Why  did  you  want  to  move  through  the  caiion  at  night  f — A.  Be 
cause  the  guide  had  assured  us  that  it  was  a  very  bad  caiion,  with  very 
steep  and  precipitous  sides,  so  that  the  Indians  could  roll  rocks  down 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  65 

upon  us  and  annihilate  us;  for  that  reason  we  determined  to  make  a 
eight  march.  We  thought  that  if  we  camped  on  this  side  the  Indians 
would  suppose  that  we  would  stay  there  all  night,  and  that  by  making 
a  night  march  we  should  be  through  the  canon  in  the  morning,  thus 
preventing  them  from  obstructing  our  passage,  even  if  they  desired  to 
do  so.  I  was  in  command  of  the  advance  guard.  I  had  been  ordered 
by  Major  Thornburgh  to  take  ten  or  twelve  men  and  keep  a  half  or 
three-quarters  of  a  mile  in  advance  of  the  command  and  keep  on  the 
lookout  for  Indians,  as  he  expected  that  there  might  be  trouble.  About 
half  or  three-quarters  of  a  mile  beyond  Milk  River  I  saw  three  Indians 
disappear  from  the  next  ridge,  about  500  yards  in  advance  of  my  party. 
This  at  once  aroused  my  suspicions,  and  I  divided  my  men  and  sent  part 
of  them  to  the  left,  and  then  I  went  down  on  the  right  about  200  yards 
and  crossed  a  little  stream  and  got  up  on  the  ridge  that  these  three  In 
dians  had  disappeared  behind.  When  I  reached  the  top  of  this  ridge, 
Mnjor  Thoruburgh,  with  two  companies  of  the  command,  had  followed 
on  this  trail  without  any  orders.  It  has  been  stated  that  it  was  done 
by  Mr.  Rankin's  orders,  but  it  was  not ;  it  was  a  mere  fortunate  circum 
stance  ;  he  happened  to  take  that  trail  instead  of  taking  the  road,  and 
it  was  providential  that  he  did  so.  When  I  discovered  the  Indians  on 
top  of  the  second  ridge,  I  saw  them  lying  down  with  their  guns  in  their 
hands  across  behind  the  ridge.  I  was  within  a  hundred  yards  of  the 
Indians,  and  I  could  see  them  lying  down,  occupying  not  more  than  a 
yard  of  space  each  ;  was  near  enough  to  see  that  they  were  packed  as 
close  as  they  could  be,  their  line  extending  at  least  400  yards. 

Q,  Then  there  would  be  about  a  hundred  Indians  there? — A.  No  ;  I 
think  there  were  between  300  and  400  Indians.  Their  ponies  I  could 
see  away  off  to  the  right.  They  had  made  their  dispositions  for  a  bat- 
tie  and  they  were  lying  there  waiting  for  us  to  come  down  over  this 
trail  into  the  ravine  within  200  yards  of  them,  when  they  were  prepared 
to  open  tire.  On  seeing  their  position  I  motioned  to  Major  Thoruburgh 
to  move  back  with  the  two  companies,  which  he  did  at  once.  Then  I 
rode  down  the  slope  of  this  hill  and  told  him  what  I  had  seen.  M;!jor 
Thornburgh  sent  me  with  3rders  to  Captain  Payne,  whose  company  was 
deployed  on  the  left,  to  dismount  and  tight  on  foot,  keeping  the  horses 
in  the  rear,  and  not  to  tire  a  shot  until  he  gave  the  order.  He  also 
gave  like  orders  to  Captain  Lawsou  who  was  near  him.  Then  he  told 
me  to  take  tifteen  men  from  Lawson's  company  and  move  out  by  the 
right  flank,  and  cross  the  ravine  if  I  could,  lower  down,  and  communi 
cate  with  the  Indians  if  possible.  I  started  out,  and  at  the  same  time 
tifteen  or  twenty  Indians  on  the  other  side  of  the  ridge  started  out  ap 
parently  to  head  me  off.  However,  of  course,  I  could  not  tell  exactly 
what  their  purpose  was  at  the  time.  When  I  got  about  400  or  500 
yards  away  from  Larson's  company,  these  Indians  came  in  sight  from 
behind  the  ridge,  and  I  took  off  my  hat  and  waved  it  in  a  friendly  way. 
I  was  replied  to  by  a  shot  from  those  Indians,  some  of  them  that  had 
come  out  from  behind  the  other  ridge. 

Q.  Did  they  shoot  at  you? — A.  The  shot  was  fired  at  me,  I  am  satis- 
tied,  because  it  wounded  a  man  right  behind  me  not  ten  feet  off,  and 
killed  his  horse.  I  gave  my  men  orders  to  dismount  at  once,  seeing  the 
advantage  of  the  position  tbat  I  held,  and  sent  word  to  Major  Thorn 
burgh  that  the  Indians  had  tired  upon  me  and  that  I  would  hold  that 
poiut  until  further  orders.  I  dismounted  and  scattered  my  men  along 
Hiid  held  that  position.  I  also  sent  word  to  Major  Thornburgh  that  th« 
Indians  were  riding  round  upon  the  flanks,  trying  to  cut  us  off  from  the 
wagons.  He  fell  back  nearly  opposite  to  my  position  until  he  gave  or- 
H.  Mis.  38 5 


66  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

ders  for  Captain  Payne  to  charge  a  hili  to  our  left  and  rear,  and  -to- 
Captain  Lawson  to  i'all  back  with  the  horses,  and  for  nie  to  hold  the 
point  I  was  then  holding,  and  keep  the  Indians  from  getting  into  the 

f  allies  and  ravines  until  the  other  companies  had  fallen  back,  and  then 
was  to  fallback  slowly.    I  did  as  I  was  directed,  and  Major  Thorn  burgh 
started  back  to  the  wagons,  thinking  his  presence  was  needed  there, 
and  was  shot  on  his  way  back.    I  fell  back  gradually  with  my  men. 

Q.  When  Major  Thoruburgh  was  shot  there  was  no  fight  going  on, 
was  there  ? — A.  O,  yes ;  the  tight  was  going  on.  The  two  companies 
were  in  skirmish  line,  falling  back  gradually.  There  had  been  a  couple 
of  men  in  Captain  Payne's  company  killed,  and  several  others  wounded, 
and  seventeen  or  twenty  of  my  company  wounded,  before  I  got  back. 
Most  of  the  men,  however,  were  wounded  after  we  had  reached  the 
wagons.  We  were  compelled  to  fall  back  to  the  wagons  because  there 
was  only  one  company  with  the  wagon  train,  and  it  was  necessary  to 
concentrate  our  forces  in  order  to  make  the  best  tight  we  could.  I  have 
already  stated  my  best  judgment  as  to  the  number  of  Indians  engaged 
in  that  affair.  The  number  of  troops  was  less  than  150,  teamsters  and 
all.  There  were  three  companies  of  cavalry,  averaging  about  forty  men 
each.  The  Indians  set  fire  to  the  grass  and  sage-brush  above  our  posi 
tion  soon  after  we  reached  the  wagons.  Of  course,  we  at  once  set  about 
getting  the  bundles  and  grain  sacks  out  and  piling  them  up  between 
the  wagons  to  make  defenses;  we  also  covered  ourselves  behind  our 
horses,  and  half  of  them  were  shot  that  afternoon.  The  Indians  got 
into  the  ravine  ;  they  were  armed  with  improved  weapons,  Winchester, 
Sharpe,  and  Remington  rifles,  and  at  a  range  of  two,  three,  or  four  hun 
dred  yards  they  killed  our  horses  all  but  four;  killed  twelve  men  and 
wounded  forty-three  during  the  tight.  That  night,  the  29th,  the  In 
dians  made  a  charge  upon  us ;  our  horses  were  tied  together,  but  some 
of  them  had  gotten  out  a  little  to  the  right,  and  the  Indians  attempted 
to  drive  those  off,  and,  at  the  same  time,  to  charge  us,  but  we  repulsed 
them  by  a  heavy  fire  which  killed  a  number  of  them.  They  did  not 
bother  us  any  more  that  night,  but  we  had  to  drag  out  the  dead  horses 
and  bury  our  dead,  and  care  for  the  wounded,  and  dig  trenches,  so  that 
we  did  not  sleep  at  all  that  night,  and  by  morning  we  felt  comparatively 
secure.  During  the  subsequent  time  all  we  could  do  was  to  cover  our 
selves  as  best  we  could.  Our  horses  were  nearly  all  killed,  and  the  fir 
ing  continued.  Perhaps  there  were  not  so  many  Indians  keeping  up 
this  fire  as  there  had  been  at  the  beginning,  because  they  only  tired 
when  they  saw  any  of  us.  All  we  could  do  was  to  protect  ourselves  as 
well  as  we  could  under  cover,  and  save  our  ammunition,  not  knowing 
whether  our  couriers  that  we  had  sent  out  would  get  through,  nor  how 
long  we  were  to  be  kept  there.  We  had  sent  out  four  couriers  at  mid 
night  the  night  before.  On  the  morning  of  the  2d  of  October,  Captain 
Dodge  arrived  with  his  colored  company.  That  assured  us  of  our  cour 
iers  having  gone  through,  and  we  were  hopeful  and,  indeed,  confident 
that  we  should  get  out ;  all  we  had  to  do  in  the  meantime  was  to  take 
care  of  ourselves  as  well  as  we  could  and  look  out  for  our  ammunition  and 
provisions.  On  the  morning  of  the  5th  of  October,  General  Merritt 
came  to  our  relief  with  his  command.  I  asked  General  Merrittfs  per 
mission  that  morning  to  go  with  ray  company  to  the  battle-field  to  get 
the  bodies  of  two  men  that  had  been  killed  in  Company  F.  He  said 
yes,  and  that  he  would  go  with  us,  that  he  would  like  to  see  the  battle 
field.  He  detailed  Major  Babcock's  company  of  the  Fifth  Cavalry  to  go 
with  us,  and  when  we  came  within  about  300  yards  of  this  ridge  the  In- 
.liaus  fired  upon  us,  the  bullets  striking  right  in  the  center  of  the  road> 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  67 

and  wounding  a  couple  of  horses.  General  Merritt  then  threw  out  the 
troops  and  advanced,  and  about  that  time  the  Indians  put  up  their 
white  flag.  The  general  gave  orders  to  stop  the  firing,  and  the  ting  of 
truce  came  in.  It  was  brought  in  by  a  white  man  named  Brady,  I  be 
lieve.  The  general  said  that  he  had  no  terms  to  offer  except  uncondi 
tional  surrender,  and  this  man  went  back.  In  the  mean  time  there  must 
have  been  150  or  200  Indians  within  sight.  After  this  flag  of  truce  was 
shown,  of  course,  they  came  out  in  full  sight,  knowing  that  he  would 
not  fire  upon  them.  They  came  up  to  within  600  or  700  yards  of  us, 
and  we  could  see  them  very  plainly  with  our  glasses.  Then  the  Indians 
returned,  and  the  general  fell  back  with  his  whole  command  in  order  to 
secure  a  better  camp,  and  the  Indians  left  and  went,  I  presume,  to  the 
agency.  Three  days  after,  the  general  moved  to  the  front  and  we  re 
turned  to  Eawlins  with  the  wounded  men.  I  am  satisfied  that  if  Gen 
eral  Merritt  had  been  allowed  to  go  ahead  at  the  time  he  was  there, 
after  the  women  were  captured,  he  could  have  taken  in  the  whole  lot  ot 
those  fellows  with  the  troops  that  he  had. 

Q.  What  prevented  him  from  doing  that  ?— A.  He  had  orders  to  stop; 
th#t  he  was  to  stop,  and  that  an  investigating  committee  would  be  ap 
pointed. 

Q.  Was  it  his  intention  to  have  gone  on  if  he  had  not  received  those 
orders'? — A.  It  was.  He  was  already  moving  out  from  the  White 
River  Agency  at  the  time  that  he  got  this  order  to  stop. 

Q.  From  whom  did  the  order  come  I— A.  I  do  not  know.  The  orders 
were  received  through  the  proper  military  authorities. 

By  Mr.  DEERING  : 

Q.  It  seems  that  after  the  Indians  had  endeavored  to  persuade  the 
troops  to  stop  away  back  about  fifty  miles,  Major  Thornburgh,  moved  on, 
contrary,  as  it  would  seem,  to  the  wish  and  the  request  of  Mr.  Mee  *er, 
saying  that  he  wanted  to  get  within  striking  distance  of  the  agency. 
Now,  I  would  like  to  know  whether,  as  Thornburgh  continued  to  move 
on,  there  was  any  effort  made  to  explain  to  the  Indians  why  he  did 
so. — A.  Yes,  sir;  but  in  Mr.  Meeker's  letter  to  Major  Thornburgh  he 
said.  UI  leave  this  to  you;  use  your  own  judgment  as  1o  where  you 
shall  stop,  but  you  had  better  stop  at  some  point  before  yoj  reach  the 
agency;"  and  Major  Thornburgh,  in  his  letter  to  Mr.  Meeker,  said,  "I 
will  move  on  to  some  point  within  striking  distance  of  ycur  agency,  and 
then  I  will  come  in  according  to  your  request.'7 

Q.  But  were  the  Indians  made  to  understand  that  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  it 
was  explained  to  them  by  the  interpreter  during  this  council  that  he 
held ;  it  was  explained  through  Henry,  the  interpreter,  that  we  could 
not  stop  at  that  point.  He  said,  "  Better  stop  here."  Major  Thornburgh 
said,  "There  is  not  enough  grass  here  for  me;  it  is  not  a  good  place." 
Henry  said,  u  Colorado  says  squaws  and  papooses  are  getting  frightened 
and  leaving."  Major  Thornburgh  said,  "  Don't  let  them  get  frightened 
at  all;  they  have  nothing  to  fear;  I  am  not  going  in  with  my  troops; 
I  will  stop  before  I  get  to  the  agency."  He  made  that  clear. 

Q.  That  is  an  important  point,  because  it  has  been  said  that  the  In 
dians  thought  that  there  was  bad  faith  on  the  part  of  Major  Thornburgh 
in  moving  forward  after  they  understood  that  he  was  not  to  do  so,  and 
that  they  took  it  as  a  declaration  of  war. — A.  Well,  it  seems  to  me  that 
that  was  sufficiently  explained,  and  that  Major  Thornburgh  made  his 
purpose  perfectly  clear.  I  was  present  and  heard  what  was  said,  and  I 
know  he  tried  to  impress  it  upon  Henry ;  and  this  agency  employe,  Mr. 
Eskridge,  did  also. 


f)8  U1E    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

By  Mr.  GUNTER  : 

Q.  At  the  first  interview  that  you  had  with  the  Indians  when  they 
came  out  to  meet  you,  did  they  meet  yon  before  you  got  upon  their  res 
ervation  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  they  met  us  twice  before  we  reached  their  res 
ervation. 

Q.  Was  this  fight  upon  the  reservation  ;  and,  if  so,  how  far  '? — A.  It 
was  just  upon  the  edge  of  the  reservation  ;  so  they  had  evidently  come 
out  this  distance  about  twenty-five  miles,  having  made  up  their  minds 
that  we  should  not  go  upon  the  reservation. 

By  Mr.  HASKELL  : 

Q.  Are  you  clear  that  the  first  shot  was  tired  at  your  command  by 
the  Indians'? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  am  confident  of  that. 

By  Mr.  WADDILL  : 

Q.  And  fired  at  the  time  you  were  saluting  them  ?— A.  Yes,  sir;  I 
was  on  my  horse,  within  150  yards  of  those  Indians  that  I  could  see, 
and  I  took  off  rny  hat  and  waved  it  in  a  friendly  manner;  not  at  all  in 
an  excited  manner,  and  I  was  looking  toward  the  Indians,  not  toward 
my  men.  The  Indians,  I  am  satisfied,  understood  it.  I  was  in  advance 
of  my  men  some  fifteen  or  twenty  feet.  I  had  given  an  order  for  my 
detachment  to  halt,  and  we  did  not  make  any  violent  or  excited  dem 
onstration  at  all.  The  Indians  claim,  I  believe,  that  the  firing  of  the 
first  shot  was  a  mistake  or  an  accident.  Now,  it  might  have  been  so 
regarded  if  it  had  been  fired  from  the  line;  but  it  was  fired  from  a  de 
tachment  that  had  been  sen/t  out  for  some  purpose,  and  it  seems  to  me 
that  whoever  was  in  command  of  that  detachment  could  have  prevented 
it  if  he  desired. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Do  you  say  that  the  Indians  claim  that  it  was  a  mistake  ? — A.  I 
will  not  venture  that  statement  of  my  own  knowledge,  but  I  have  seen 
it  stated  in  the  papers  that  General  Adams  says  so. 

By  Mr.  WADDILL  : 

Q.  And  yet  that  shot  wounded  a  man  and  killed  a  horse  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir;  and  I  think  it  must  have  been  aimed  at  somebody. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  You  are  satisfied  that  there  was  no  mistake ;  that  the  shot  was 
fired  intentionally  ? — A.  I  am  satisfied  that  it  w^as  fired  intentionally.  I 
am  satisfied  of  it  especially  from  the  disposition  that  the  Indians  were 
making,  lying  down  behind  that  hill.  If  they  had  wanted  to  hold  a 
parley  they  would  not  have  done  that ;  they  would  have  sent  a  small 
party  ahead  with  a  flag.  The  Utes  understand  how  to  manage  such 
matters ;  they  are  not  so  barbarous  as  not  to  know  that.  They  had  alt 
their  preparations  made  to  get  us  down  into  that  canon  and  then  not  a 
man  would  have  got  out. 

By  Mr.  GUNTER  : 

Q.  Was  their  line  of  battle  parallel  with  yours  as  you  were  moving, 
or  at  right  angles  with  the  road? — A.  Their  line  of  battle  was  parallel 
with  the  road.  They  had  originally  expected  that  we  would  come  down 
and  follow  the  road,  and  they  were  over  here  between  the  two  ridges  ; 
but  instead  of  that  we  took  the  trail  which  saved  us.  They  did  not  form 
at  right  angles  across  the  road.  They  were  waiting  for  us  to  get  strung 
along  in  front  of  their  position  when  they  would  have  opened  fire  upon 
us. 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  69 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  And  you  say  it  was  fortunate  that  Major  Thornburgh  followed  the 
trail  instead  of  the  road  for  that  reason  u?— A.  It  was,  because  we  really 
took  them  in  the  rear  of  their  position  instead  of  stringing  ourselves  out 
along  their  front  as  they  expected  and  wished  us  to  do.* 

By  Mr.  POUND  : 

Q.  Would  the  Indians  have  respected  a  flag  of  truce  ? — A.  I,  of  course, 
cannot  say  as  to  that.  They  know  what  it  means,  but  whether  they 
would  have  respected  it  or  not  at  that  time  I  don't  know.  They  did 
not  respect  what  was  intended  as  a  flag  of  truce,  this  waving  of  my  hat. 

Q.  May  they  not  have  mistaken  this  demonstration  of  yours  ?— A.  I 
think  not.  It  seems  impossible. 

Q.  Would  not  the  waving  of  a  hat  be  as  much  a  sign  of  war  as  of 
peace  ?  Might  it  not  be  so  considered  by  them  ?— A.  I  know  nothing  of 
their  customs  in  that  respect,  but  the  manner  of  my  men  stopping  and 
sitting  there  quietly  on  their  horses,  and  my  own  attitude,  looking  right 
towards  the  Indians,  and  not  towards  my  men,  and  waving  my  hat  in  a 
friendly  manner — all  these  things  considered,  it  seems  to  me  that  there 
was  no  possibility  of  such  a  mistake. 

By  Mr.  HASKELL  : 

Q.  It  is  not  an  unusual  practice  in  the  service,  is  it,  where  two  bodies 
of  men  not  knowing  each  other  meet,  for  theui  to  make  a  signal  of  that 
kind  f—  A.  No,  sir. 

By  Mr.  ERRETT  : 

Q.  If  you  were  going  out  to  hold  a  parley,  wouldn't  it  have  been  more 
prudeut'for  you  to  have  taken  a  flag  of  truce  along  ? — A.  Well,  it  might 
have  been  better,  but  still  I  don't  think  that  it  would  have  made  any 
difference.  Indeed,  I  don't  know  that  I  bad  such  a  thing  as  a  white 
handkerchief  about  me.  I  think  the  only  handkerchief  1  had  was  a  silk 
one  around  my  neck,  and  that  was  of  a  different  color. 

By  Mr.  POEHLER  : 

Q.  Had  the  Indians  any  way  of  knowing  to  what  point  your  com 
mand  intended  to  move  before  stopping  and  sending  a  delegation  to  the 
agency  ? — A.  No  point  where  we  should  stop  was  designated,  but  they 
were  told  that  we  would  move  on  to  some  point  where  we  could  find 
plenty  of  grass.  The  Indians  had  set  fire  to  the  grass  at  Milk  River,  so 
that  all  we  could  do  was  to  move  on. 

Q.  It  was  stated  here  the  other  day  that  there  was  good  grass  and 
water  at  Milk  Kiver ;  what  was  the  fact! — A.  There  was  grass  there, 
but  the  Indiausjburued  it  off,  and  there  was  no  running  water;  no  water 
except  in  pools. 

Q.  Then  there  was  no  point  designated  for  stopping  nor  any  idea 
given  of  the  point  at  which  the  troops  would  stop? — A.  No,  sir;  but 
Major  Thornburgh  assured  them  that  he  would  stop  at  some  convenient 
spot  this  side  of  the  agency. 

Q.  WTas  Mr.  Meeker  asked  to  come  out  to  the  command? — A.  Yes; 
he  was  asked  to  come  out.  In  the  last  letter  that  Major  Thornburgh 
wrote  to  Mr.  Meeker  he  asked  him  to  come  out  with  as  many  of  the 
chiefs  as  he  could  get  to  come  and  meet  him  at  the  camp.  He  said  in 
that  letter,  u  I  am  going  in  with  five  soldiers  :  I  don't  know  why  the 
Indians  should  not  come  out  with  me.7;  In  the  conference  it  was 
agreed  that  he  should  send  that  word.  To  that  letter  no  answer  was 
received.  I  understand,  however,  that  a  letter  in  reply  was  found  on 


70  UTE    INDIAN  OUTBREAK. 

the  body  of  one  of  the  employes  of  the  agency,  in  which   Mr.  Meeker 
said,  "  I  will  ccine  out  with  some  chiefs  to-night." 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  To-night  or  to-morrow  ? — A.  I  don't  know  whether  he  said  to-night 
or  to-morrow  ;  but  at  any  rate  this  was  the  time  that  he  was  to  reach 
us  at  our  camp,  the  night  of  the  29th.  I  think  that  letter  was  probably 
written  on  the  same  day  that  the  request  was  sent  to  him,  or  a  day 
later  ?  I  cannot  say  as  to  that. 

Q.  You  never  saw  the  letter ? — A.  I  never  saw  it. 

By  Mr.  GUNTER  : 

Q.  Was  not  the  fight  on  the  same  day  on  which  the  last  letter  was 
written  by  Major  Thoruburgh  to  Agent  Meeker! — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Was  it  not  on  the  29th  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  the  last  letter  was  dated 
the  28th.  Mr.  Lowry,  one  of  our  guides,  who  was  afterwards  killed, 
brought  in  a  letter  on  the  28th  from  Mr.  Meeker.  That  was  the  last 
letter  received  from  him.  Then  that  evening,  about  four  o'clock,  Mr. 
Eskridge,  the  man  who  came  out  with  these  Indians  to  Williams  Fork, 
Henry,  Colorado,  and  the  rest  of  them  was  asked  to  remain  until  we 
should  reach  camp  next  night.  He  did,  and  he  took  the  letter  to  Mr. 
Meeker,  asking  him  to  come  out  with  those  chiefs  on  the  29th. 

Mr.  DEERING.  General  Adams's  idea  was  that  the  trouble  could  have 
been  averted  if,  when  Eskridge  arrived  at  the  agency,  Meeker  had  re 
turned  an  answer  promptly  that  night. 

The  WITNESS.  I  understand  that  that  is  his  view. 
By  Mr.  GUNTER  : 

Q.  What  day  of  the  month  was  the  massacre  at  the  agency  I — A.  On 
the  29th. 

Q.  Have  you  any  knowledge  of  the  time  of  day,  whether  it  was  before 
or  after  the  fight? — A.  I  have  no  means  of  knowing  that  except  from 
reports  which  you  gentlemen  who  have  been  investigating  the  matter 
doubtless  know  more  about  than  I  do. 

By  Mr.  POEHLER  : 

Q.  About  what  time  of  day  did  the  fight  commence  ? — A.  Between 
halt  past  eleven  and  twelve. 

Q.  Did  you  see  General  Adams  at  any  time;  and,  if  so,  under  what . 
circumstances? — A.  I  have  only  seen  him  once,  and  that  was  last  even 
ing  at  the  Ebbitt  House. 

Q.  Didn't  he  come  to  your  camp  out  there? — A.  He  came  to  General 
Merritt's;  but  you  understand  that  I  went  back  to  Bawling  with  the 
remains  of  our  companies  and  the  wounded  men.  I  never  went  to  the 
agency  at  all.  I  went  back  with  the  rest  of  the  command  to  the  White 
Eiver. 

Q.  Then  you  know  nothing  about  anything  that  took  place  after  what 
you  have  already  testified  to  ? — A.  1  do  not.  I  may  say  that  on  the  day 
the  fight  began,  along  townrd  evening  we  could  see  smoke  in  the  direc 
tion  of  the  agency,  and  we  talked  about  it  at  the  time,  and  said  that 
that  was  doubtless  the  smoke  of  the  agency  buildings,  and  that  the  In 
dians  had  murdered  everybody  there. 

Q.  Would  there  have  been  time  for  the  Indians  to  have  communicated 
with  their  friends  from  the  point  where  you  were  in  time  to  have  brought 
about  the  massacre  that  evening? — A.  O,  yes;  there  would  have  been 
if  they  sent  out  runners  at  once.  It  wouldn't  have  taken  them  more 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  71 

than  an  hoar  and  a  half,  as  they  ride,  to  have  sent  the  news  to  the 
agency. 

By  Mr.  WELLBORN  : 

Q.  What  day  was  it  that  Major  Thornburg,  told  Jack  that  he 'could 
not  stop  at  the  point  where  he  was  then,  but  must  go  on  to  a  more  de 
sirable  point? — A.  That  was  the  night  of  the  27th.  It  was  the  night  of 
the  26th  that  Jack  first  came  to  our  camp  at  Bear  River. 

Adjourned. 


WASHINGTON,  January  27,  1880. 
JOSEPHINE  MEEKER,  sworn  and  examined. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  State  your  residence. — Answer.  My  present  residence  is  in 
Washington,  D.  0. ;  my  home  is  in  Greeley,  Colorado.  For  the  year 
and  a  half  preceding  my  coming  to  Washington,  I  lived  at  White  Eiver. 

Q.  Did  you  live  at  the  White  River  Agency  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  is  your  relation  to  the  late  Mr.  Meeker,  formerly  the  agent 
there  ? — A.  I  am  his  daughter.  I  was  a  teacher  and  a  physician  there. 

Q.  Had  you  studied  medicine? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Was  there  any  other  physician  in  the  place  ? — A.  No,  sir.  My 
mother  did  a  great  deal  in  giving  out  medicine,  while  I  was  really  a 
teacher;  but  the  two,  "teacher*7  and  "  physician"  had  to  go  together; 
you  could  not  take  the  one  name  without  taking  the  other. 

Q.  Had  they  any  regular  physician  while  you  were  there!— A.  No, 
sir. 

Q.  And  never  had  any? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  After  you  went  to  the  White  River  Agency  with  your  father, 
when  did  you  first  observe  anything  like  a  feeling  of  hostility  between 
the  Indians  and  .your  father! — A.  As  soon  as  I  came  in.  When  I  ar 
rived  at  the  agency  the  Indians  were  all  off  the  reservation  except  two 
or  three  families;  and,  as  soon  as  they  came  in,  Jack  began  opposing 
the  agent.  He  wanted  the  agent  to  disregard  the  regulations  that  came 
from  Washington  and  issue  to  them  whole  sacks  of  flour;  that  is,  in 
stead  of  twenty-five  pounds  weekly,  he  wanted  one  hundred  pounds  once 
a  month,  so  that  they  could  go  off  the  reservation  and  be  gone  a  month. 

Q.  How  long  was  that  before  the  outbreak? — A.  That  was  in  August, 
I  think,  of  1878. 

Q.  The  outbreak  was — when? — A.  In  September,  1879.  As  I  was 
proceeding  to  state,  Jack  ordered  all  his  men  that  he  had  control  of  and 
many  others  not  to  draw  any  rations.  For  several  weeks  they  did  not 
draw  any,  at  the  end  of  which  time  Jack  was  ordered  down  south  by 
the  commissioners,  when  his  men  all  came  in  and  drew  their  rations 
without  any  further  trouble.  I  aui  speaking  now  of  the  year  1878. 

Q.  Of  what  commissioners  do  you  speak? — A.  The  commissioners 
who  were  then  at  Los  Pinos,  negotiating  to  purchase  the  four-mile  tract 
at  the  Uncompaghre  Agency. 

Q.  Those  known  as  the  McFarland-Hatch  commissioners,  the  same 
who  were  treating  there  with  the  tribe  in  1878  ? — A.  Yes. 

Q.  What  did  they  order  him  south  for  ? — A.  They  were  buying  the 
four-mile  tract  from  the  Utes,  and  they  ordered  him  to  come  down  there 
to  see  what  treaty  they  could  make  with  him. 

Q.  Did  he  go  alone? — A.  No.  sir;  Mr.  Curtis,  the  interpreter,  and 
•others,  I  do  not  know  who  else,  went  with  him. 


72  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

Q.  Any  other  Indians? — A.  I  presume  there  were;  it  is  likely  there 
were,  but  I  do  not  know  who  they  were. 

Q.  After  Jack  left,  his  band  then  came  in  and  drew  their  rations  ? — 
A.  Yes,  sir;  they  all  did  without  any  trouble. 

Q.  Go  on  and  state,  as  accurately  as  you  can,  all  that  occurred  from 
the  time  of  your  arrival  at  the  agency  up  to  the  time  of  this  outbreak, 
particularly  all  differences,  the  causes  of  the  differences,  and  everything 
you  remember  in  connection  therewith. — A.  I  arrived  there  on  the  17th  of 
July,  1878  ;  my  father  having  got  there  in  May,  1878.  The  instructions 
to  him  from  Washington  were  to  do  everything  in  his  power  to  induce 
the  Indians  to  farm,  to  work,  and  to  adopt  civilized  ways.  There  was  no 
place  there,  no  land  of  any  amount,  that  could  be  cultivated  without  great 
expense.  The  agency  was  located  at  a  point  high  up  at  the  mouth  of  a 
canon  where  the  snow  lay  two  or  three  feet  deep  all  the  winter,  and  where 
it  was  very  cold.  The  agent  found  it  impracticable  to  carry  on  farming 
at  all  at  that  location,  and  therefore  applied  to  Washington  for  permis 
sion  to  move  the  agency  to  a  point  fifteen  miles  below,  where  several 
thousand  acres  could  be  cultivated  and  irrigated  without  difficulty,  where 
the  climate  was  comparatively  mild,  and  where  the  Indians  were  in  the 
habit  of  wintering,  as  the  snow  did  not  remain  upon  the  ground  there 
as  in  other  places.  The  proposed  new  location  was  altogether  desira 
ble,  I  suppose,  as  compared  with  the  other.  The  Indians  never  wintered 
at  the  old  location  because  of  the  extreme  cold.  It  was  almost  impos 
sible  for  them  to  live  there  in  the  winter.  The  government  granted  the 
agent  permission  to  remove  the  agency.  The  Indians  all  liked  the  change, 
and  it  seemed  to  be  satisfactory  until  Jack  heard  of  it.  Jack,  seeing 
that  Douglass  was  in  favor  of  it,  opposed  it. 

Q.  Was  there  any  jealousy  between  Douglass  and  Jack  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir;  they  were  rival  chiefs  and  each  was  trying  to  control  as  many  men 
as  he  could. 

Q.  Were  they  of  the  same  baud? — A.  They  were  of  the  same  band, 
the  White  Kiver  Utes. 

Q.  Douglass  was  in  favor  of  it,  then  ? — A.  Douglass  was  in  favor  of 
it,  and  therefore  Jack  opposed  it.  After  a  time  the  majority  of  the  In 
dians  consented  to  it,  and  Jack  with  his  men  moved  off  the  reservation 
and  remained  off  all  winter.  The  agency  was  not  moved  until  the 
spring. 

Q.  They  left  their  reservation  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Where  did  they  go? — A.  They  went  up  on  Bear  River,  where  they 
remained  most  of  the  winter.  Mr.  Curtis  undertook  to  get  what  Indians- 
he  could  to  help  build  an  irrigating  canal,  which  was  the  first  work 
that  was  done  there.  He  succeeded  in  getting  from  fifteen  to  thirty  to 
work.  These  were  the  Douglass  men.  Douglass  himself  came  there. 

Q.  Had  you  at  this  time  moved  down  to  the  lower  agency? — A.  No  ; 
we  had  not  moved  yet,  but  some  of  the  employes  were  there  at  work.. 

Q.  This  irrigating  canal  was  being  dug  down  there  ? — A.  Yes;  it  was 
being  built  down  there.  Jack  opposed  it  all  that  he  possibly  could. 
Henry  James,  who  was  our  interpreter,  was  in  favor  of  working,  and 
always  had  been.  With  the  exception  of  James,  not  one  of  the  Indians- 
could  drive  a  team  nor  knew  anything  about  work.  He  had  been  afraid 
to  work  because  Jack  had  threatened  a  number  of  times  to  shoot  him  if 
he  did  work. 

Q.  Was  he  a  full-blooded  Indian  ? — A.  Yes,  sir.  When,  finally,  so 
many  of  them  commenced  work,  Jack  saw  that  he  could  not  do  anything, 
so  he  moved  off  and  took  his  men  with  him. 

Q.  Do  you  know  how  many  went  with  him? — A.  A  majority  of  the 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  73 

Indians  went  with  him.  I  do  not  know  exactly  how  many;  a  couple 
hundred  or  so,  perhaps  more.  The  Indians  worked  well,  and  dug  per 
haps  one-half  ot  this  irrigating  ditch.  They  were  paid  oft  regularly,  and, 
as  an  extra,  inducement  for  them  to  work,  the  agent  gave  to  all  those 
who  would  work  double  rations,  clothing  of  all  kinds,  boots  and  some  of 
everything  that  there  was  at  the  agency.  Whereas  those  who  did  not 
work  simply  drew  their  regular  rations  and  their  regular  annuity  goods. 
Jack  became  offended  at  this  and  started  the  report  that  the  agent  re 
fused  to  give  them  rations  unless  they  worked.  The  fact  was  that  if 
they  did  not  work  they  only  had  their  regular  rations,  and  if  they  did 
work,  they  had  extra  rations  and  extra  inducements.  We  were  kind  to 
them  in  every  way  that  we  possibly  could  be  to  encourage  them  in  work 
ing.  In  the  spring,  a  number  of  them  helped  to  dig  fence-post  poles, 
and  helped  to  get  out  the  fence  posts.  The  employe's  plowed  up  80 
acres  of  land  and  fenced  it.  Many  of  them  planted  little  gardens  of 
their  own. 

Q.  Within  that  tract  of  eighty  acres  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  the  Indians  assist  at  all  in  breaking  up  that  eighty  acres  '? — 
A.  Not  in  breaking  up  the  eighty  acres ;  they  assisted  in  grabbing  out 
the  sage-brush,  and  they  grubbed  out  eighty  acres  of  sage-brush  at  a 
point  lower  down  on  the  river,  where  they  could  plant  potatoes,  and  so 
forth.  Twenty  acres  of  wheat  were  put  in  in  the  spring. 

Q.  Were  they  all  given  small  gardens  to  work? — A.  Yes,  sir;  all 
those  who  could  be  induced  to  take  them  were  given  them.  Just  at 
this  time,  before  the  agency  was  moved,  Jack  came  in  from  Bear  River, 
and  wanted  to  work. 

Q.  This  was  at  the  lower  agency,  was  it  ? — A.  No  ;  this  was  at  the 
old  agency.  All  the  employes  were  at  the  lower  agency,  but  the  re 
moval  had  not  been  made  from  the  old  agency.  This  was  in  the  spring, 
ab-uit  April  or  May,  I  think.  Father  immediately  offered  Jack  every 
inducement  that  he  possibly  could  offer,  as  he  had  offered  to  others,  to 
induce  him  to  work,  and  told  him  he  would  send  employes  up  to  help 
him.  Jack  wished  to  have  his  farm  about  twelve  or  fifteen  miles  from 
where  Douglass  was,  and  father  tried  to  induce  him  to  move  to  Powell, 
because  there  was  plenty  of  laud  there  for  all.  Jack  said  he  would  not 
go  anywhere  near  where  Douglass  lived ;  that  he  wanted  his  farm  and 
wanted  to  start  it  in  opposition  to  Douglass,  and  to  call  it  "The  Farm 
that  Jack  Built.'7  So  the  agent  agreed  to  it,  and  they  broke  up  the 
laud,  when  Jack  helped  to  fence  it,  and  things  went  on  very  well.  Then  he 
tried  to  induce  the  agent  to  move  the  agency  back  to  the  old  place,  or 
near  to  his  farm,  which,  of  course,  could  not  then  well  be  done.  Jack 
said  that  if  the  agent  did  not  do  it  he  would  not  farm  ;  that  he  wanted 
the  agent  to  be  near  where  he  was,  and  he  did  not  want  him  near  Doug 
lass.  The  agent  told  him  that  this  was  simply  impossible ;  that  he 
(Jack)  ought  to  have  come  in  at  first  and  then  have  taken  Powell  Val 
ley.  As  soon  as  we  had  moved,  and  the  houses  had  been  moved  to  the 
lower  agency,  and  we  had  the  issues  at  the  lower  agency,  Jack  left  his 
farm,  went  to  Denver,  and  complained  very  bitterly  to  Governor  Pitkin 
about  the  agent.  I  understood  afterwards  that  Governor  Pitkin  asked 
him  what  complaint  he  had  to  make,  and  that  he  replied  that  he  did  not 
like  the  agent  because  he  was  continually  talking  to  them  about  schools 
and  about  work.  Up  to  this  time  I  had  done  everything  I  possibly 
could  do ;  the  agent  had  done  everything  that  he  possibly  could  do, 
and  Mr.  Curtis,  who  is  an  old  friend  of  theirs,  had  done  everything  that 
he  could  do,  and  we  had  succeeded  in  getting  three  children  into  the 
school,  and  everything  was  going  along  well  at  Powell  Valley.  As  soou 


74  UTE    INDIAN   OUTBREAK. 

as  the  crops  were  planted  a  great  many  of  the  Indians  went  off  the  res 
ervation  to  hunt ;  in  fact  the  majority  of  them  remained  off  the  reserva 
tion,  except  about  the  time  of  the  general  issue,  which  occurs  once  a 
year.  Pe-ar's  band,  Colorow's  band,  and  Washington's  band  were  never 
on  the  reservation,  since  we  have  been  there,  except  at  the  time  of  the 
issuing  of  the  annuity  goods. 

Q.  What  bands  were  those  you  speak  of  as  the  Pe  ar,  Colorow,  and 
Washington  ? — A.  Those  were  the  names  of  leaders  who  had  control  of 
a  few  men.  There  was  no  regular  chief  there,  in  fact,  and  the  men  were 
all  divided  up.  Every  boy  there  had  as  much  control  and  as  much  right 
to  go  and  insult  the  agent  as  any  one  else.  They  did  as  they  pleased, 
every  one  of  them,  and  had  done  as  they  pleased  for  years.  It  was  ut 
terly  impossible  to  have  any  control  over  them  or  have  them  do  any 
thing  other  than  just  what  you  could  persuade  them  to  do  by  coaxing 
them  and  giving  them  things. 

Q.  How  many  different  bands  were  there  in  this  tribe  ! — A.  There  were 
these  bands:  Pe-ar-s,  Washington's,  Colorow's,  Johnson's,  Jack's,  and 
Douglass's  ;  but,  as  I  have  said,  the  Pe  ar,  the  Colorow,  and  the  Washing 
ton  bands  never  remained  on  the  reservation.  They  had  been  for  years 
going  through  North  and  Middle  Parks,  scaring  what  women  they  could 
tind,  murdering  stray  miners,  and  stealing  horses.  They  had  plenty  of 
money  and  plenty  of  horses,  and,  as  they  never  did  any  work,  they  must 
have  got  them  some  way.  . 

Q.  Where  did  they  get  the  money '? — A.  They  never  worked  any,  but 
they  always  had  plenty  of  money.  They  never  took  any  rations  from 
the  agency. 

Q.  Of  how  many  men  were  those  different  bands  composed  ? — A.  The 
number  varied.  There  were  from  twenty  to  thirty  in  a  baud,  some  of 
the  bands  having  more  and  some  less.  There  were  about  twenty  or 
thirty  lodges,  perhaps. 

Q.  What  was  the  average  of  the  number  of  men  for  each  lodge  ? — A. 
They  generally  allowed  about  five  persons  to  a  family,  I  think.  These 
bands  would  return  once  a  year.  They  had  returned  just  before  this 
massacre,  as  it  was  then  very  near  the  time  for  the  general  issue. 

Q.  They  had  all  come  back  to  the  reservation  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  they 
were  all  in  then. 

Q.  These  others  that  you  speak  of,  were  they  subject  in  any  way  to 
the  chiefs — to  Jack  or  the  rest? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Were  they  all  divided  among  themselves  ?— A.  Yes,  they  were  all 
divided. 

Q.  But  each  recognized  his  own  chief,  and  was  known  to  his  own 
chief! — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Were  the  chiefs  of  those  bands  hostile  to  each  other  ? — A.  No,  not 
as  much  as  Jack  and  Douglass  were,  because  Jack  and  Douglass  con 
trolled  the  largest  number  of  men,  and  it  was  a  fight  between  Jack  and 
Douglass  as  to  which  would  be  chief.  Really,  Jack  was  the  chief,  but 
Douglass  was  recognized  as  chief  by  the  government.  There  was  a 
regulation  received  from  Washington  about  once  a  month,  generally, 
and  it  made  no  difference  what  the  regulation  was,  the  fact  was  always 
the  same,  that  if  Douglass  was  in  favor  of  it,  Jackwas  sure  to  oppose  it. 

Q.  You  say  that  Douglass  was  the  chief  recognized  by  the  government, 
but  that  Jack  was  the  one  recognized  by  the  Indians'? — A.  Well,  Jack 
controlled  the  largest  number  of  men.  Douglass  had  only  about  forty 
or  fifty  followers,  while  Jack  had,  perhaps,  a  couple  of  hundred. 

Q.  Had  Jack  been  selected  in  any  council  of  the  Indians  as  their 
chief  ?— A.  No,  I  think  not. 


UTE   INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  75 

Q.  You  mean,  then,  simply  that  his  followers  outnumbered  those  of 
any  other  chief? — A.  Yes,  that  is  all. 

Q.  Why  then  did  the  government  recognize  Douglas  ? — A.  I  do  not 
know. 

Q.  That  occurred  before  you  came  there  ?— A.  He  has  been  chief  for 
a  great  number  of  years.  I  presume  that  he  used  to  control  his  men. 
Be  has  no  control  over  the  men  now:  in  fact,  none  of  the  chiefs  have 
any  control,  as  each  one  is  so  afraid  of  offending  his  men  and  thereby 
losing  a  few  ;  and,  for  this  reason,  they  do  not  exercise  any  control  over 
their  men. 

Q.  Proceed  now  with  your  general  statement  ?— A.  The  general  com 
plaint  by  the  Indians  was  that  they  did  not  want  to  work.  When  we 
would  ask  them  to  let  their  children  come  to  school  they  would  laugh  at  us, 
they  would  always  laugh  at  me,  and  tell  me  that  they  did  not  want 
any  school.  And  my  particular  friends  among  the  Indians  came  to  me 
en  a  number  of  occasions  and  told  me  I  must  stop  asking  the  children 
to  go  to  school,  and  stop  asking  the  parents  of  the  children  to  send  them 
to  school,  as  it  would  make  enemies;  that  they  did  not  want  any  schools, 
nor  did  they  want  any  work.  The  Indians  said  that  when  the  agent 
first  came  there  they  thought  be  was  a  good  agent,  but  that  now  he 
talked  so  much  about  work  he  was  not  a  good  agent.  I  asked  them, 
"  Why  do  you  not  want  to  have  your  children  go  to  school?"  They  re- 
plied  that  if  they  sent  them  to  school  and  they  learned  to  read  and 
write  and  learned  to  work,  the  white  folks  would  say,  "  We  will  not 
send  you  any  more  flour;  you  can  grow  your  own  wheat."  They  said 
that  if  their^children  learned  to  read  and  write  the  white  folks  would 
want  them  to  learn  to  be  carpenters ;  then  they  would  want  them  to 
learn  to  build  houses;  then  they  would  want  the  Indians  to  live  in 
houses;  then  they  would  want  them  to  learn  to  farm,  and 
that,  if  they  learned  to  farm,  then  they  would  want  them  to 
break  up  the  ground,  and  that  that  would  necessitate  their 
giving  up  their  horses,  and  if  they  gave  up  their  horses  they 
might  as  well  be  civilized  and  be  through  with  it.  They  said  they  did 
not  want  any  schools  and  did  not  want  work,  but  that  they  wanted 
an  agent  there  who  would  give  them  out  their  flour  and  who  would 
write  to  the  government  to  send  them  flour,  to  send  them  blankets  and 
everything  they  wanted,  and  who  would  not  talk  about  work  or  school 
to  them  ;  that  that  was  the  kind  of  an  agent  they  wanted.  Neverthe 
less  they  did  work  and  did  send  their  children  to  school ;  but  this  was 
simply  to  please  us,  as  we  were  constantly  urging  them  to  do  so.  They 
also  broke  in  a  number  of  their  horses  during  the  summer,  and  many 
of  them  hauled  the  flour  down  from  the  old  agency  to  the  new  agency, 
for  which  they  were  paid  three  dollars  a  day.  All  those  who  worked 
had  extra  rations  furnished  them,  were  paid  fifteen  dollars  a  month  in 
cash,  and  had  every  inducement  possible  held  out  to  them.  The  young 
men  who  had  no  horses  would  work  to  get  money,  if  the  older  ones  who 
had  plenty  of  horses  would  let  them.  The  older  ones  ridiculed  them 
for  working,  and,  on  a  number  of  occasions,  Jack  threatened  to  shoot 
them  if  they  did  do  work,  and  that  deterred  a  great  many  from  work 
ing.  They  had,  last  fall,  many  bushels  of  potatoes  for  sale,  and  planted 
a  number  of  acres  of  sweet  corn  and  other  vegetables.  They  were  very 
fond  ( f  vegetables  and  anything  of  that  kind. 

Q.  By  whom  were  these  potatoes  planted  f— A.  By  the  Indians  them 
selves.  The  employes  showed  them  how  to  plant  the  potatoes.  Of 
course  the  Indians  knew  nothing  about  work  until  they  had  been 
shown  how  to  do  it. 


76  UTE    INDIAN   OUTBREAK. 

Q.  Was  this  upon  the  eighty  acres  of  land  that  the  employes  had 
broken  up? — A.  Yes;  this  was  upon  the  eighty  acres  of  land  that  the 
employes  had  broken  up  and  upon  the  eight  acres  on  the  river  which  the 
Indians  had  grubbed  out.  Of  course,  the  Indians  did  not  know  how  to 
break  up  new  land  as  the  soil  was  very  heavy.  They  were  shown  bow 
to  irrigate  the  soil  and  how  to  raise  their  crops.  The  idea  of  the  agent 
was  to  plow  fifty  acres  more  between  the  street  and  the  river,  and  in  a 
direction  exactly  opposite  to  and  across  the  street  from  the  other  culti 
vated  portion,  and  also  to  inclose  about  200  acres  in  all,  in  order  to  have 
some  grass  for  the  cattle  and  horses  at  the  agency.  As  it  then  was,  al 
though  all  the  families  living  near  the  agency  had  from  ten  to  one  hun 
dred  horses,  there  was  no  grass  within  seven  or  eight  miles  of  the 
agency.  The  employes  had  to  drive  off  the  milch  cows  for  some  seven 
or  eight  miles  in  order  to  find  grass  for  them.  A  number  of  Indians 
had  taken  cows  and  learned  to  milk  them ;  they  were  milking  some 
twenty  or  thirty  cows  altogether.  Many  of  them  had,  of  their  own  ac 
cord,  built  corrals,  and  a  number  of  them  desired  to  have  houses — which 
were  promised  them  as  soon  as  the  employes  could  get  around  to  build 
them.  When  they  began  to  plow  these  eight  acres  of  land  across  the 
street,  a  woman,  known  as  "Jane,"  who  lived  near  where  the  plowing 
was  being  done,  and  who  had  a  number  of  horses,  objected. 

Q.  What  wras  the  name  of  the  woman  ? — A.  Her  name  was  Jane. 
Her  husband's  name  was  Pauvits.  She  spoke  very  good  English,  hav 
ing  lived  in  a  white  family.  She  objected  to  the  plowing  on  the  ground 
that  there  would  not  be  any  grass  near  by  for  her  horses,  and  that  the 
agent  could  go  and  plow  at  a  point  some  half  a  mile  above  there  on  the 
side  of  a  mountain  or  higher  up.  The  ground  at  the  point  indicated  by 
her  was  covered  with  sage  brush  and  grease-wood  of  about  four  or  five 
feet  in  height,  which  would  have  taken  probably  about  three  months  to 
grub  out.  This  the  agent  did  not  wish  to  do,  as  the  laud  at  the  agency 
was  in  every  way  fitted  for  raising  wheat  and  for  farming.  He  told 
Jane  that  if  she  would  allow  him  to  plow  he  would  move  her  corral 
(she  had  built  a  corral),  that  he  would  dig  her  a  well,  build  her  a  house, 
give  her  a  stove,  and  give  her  many  more  things.  This  she  at  first  re 
fused  to  accede  to,  and  made  all  the  disturbance  that  she  could  make 
about  the  plowing  of  the  land.  Then  father  sent  tor  Jack,  who  was 
camped  about  fifteen  miles  away.  Jack  and  his  men  came  down,  and 
they  talked  about  the  laud  being  plowed.  Jack  told  him  that  he  could 
plow  to  a  certain  distance,  but  not  to  plow  any  more  than  that. 

Q.  Had  Jack  gone  down  then  ?  I  thought  he  had  remained  off  this 
reservation,  at  least  off  this  part  of  it? — A.  He  was  at  that  time  in 
camp  fifteen  miles  off.  They  had  then  come  into  the  reservation  so  as 
to  be  in  time  to  draw  their  annuity  goods. 

Q.  Wrere  his  followers  in  camp  at  this  point  fifteen  miles  from  the 
agency  ? — A.  Yes. 

Q,  Was  he  interested  in  the  crops  at  the  agency? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Why  did  the  ageucsend  for  him  then? — A.  Because  he  controlled 
the  largest  number  of  men,  and  the  agent  thought  that  if  he  could  get 
the  consent  of  the  majority  the  rest  would  submit  to  it.  Jack  said  that 
he  did  not  care  ;  that  they  might  plow  for  a  certain  distance.  When  the 
plowing  was  resumed  several  Indians  of  Jane's  party  came  out  with  guns 
and  ordered  the  plowman  to  stop.  Jack  was  sent  for  again,  and  it  was 
finally  agreed  that  the  agent  should  plow  and  fence  as  much  as  he  wished 
to  do. 

Q.  At  the  agency  ?— A.  Yes,  sir;  Johnson  had  not  attended  any  of 
these  councils,  though  all  the  Douglas  men  had ;  and  when  the  plow- 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  77 

man  commenced  plowing  again  Johnson  came  down  and  was  very  angry. 
He  took  the  agent,  pushed  him  around  the  room,  and  out  of  the  house, 
pushing  him  up  against  a  one  rail  fence,  a  sort  of  hitching  post  that 
they  had  in  front  of  the  office,  pushing  him  backwards  over  ihat,  and 
would  probably  have  killed  him  if  the  employes  had  not  come.  John 
son's  sou  was  the  one  who  fired  at  the  plowman.  Of  course,  then 
everything  was  stopped. 

Q.  To  what  party  did  Johnson  belong — to  Jack's  party  ? — A.  He  had  a 
little  party  of  his  own.  He  was  rather  with  Douglas,  but  he  con  trolled  a 
few  meu  of  his  own.  Everything  was  stopped  then,  and  the  agent  tele 
graphed  to  Washington  for  instructions,  saying  that  he  could  not  carry  out 
the  directions  of  the  government  to  carry  on  farming  operations  there  un 
less  he  was  protected,  stating  also  what  assaults  had  been  made  upon 
him,  what  difficulties  he  had  met  with,  and  that  if  they  wished  him  to 
continue  farming  there  they  must  send  him  protection.  In  the  mean 
time  (before  this  time)  General  Dodge's  troop  of  cavalry — Company  9,  I 
think — had  been  sent  in  to  clear  North  Park  and  Middle  Park  of  Jack's 
and  Douglas's  parties,  who  had  been  off  the  reservation  burning  timber. 
They  had  burned  Mr.  Thompson's  house. 

Q.  How  do  you  know  that? — A.  Mr.  Thompson  claims  that  they  did. 
He  had  warrants  out  against  them — against  Chinaman  and  Bennett. 

Q.  He  claims,  you  say,  that  Jack  burned  his  house? — A.  That  some 
of  the  Indians  did  ;  that  Chinaman  or  Bennett  did.  Complaint  had  been 
made  to  Governor  Pitkiu  and  the  Interior  Department  and  they  had 
sent  up  this  company  to  send  the  Indians  back  to  their  reservation. 
Meantime,  father  had  sent  out  Douglass  and  one  of  the  employes  to 
recall  the  Indians,  and  from  the  employes  we  learned  that  for  miles  and 
miles,  between  Middle  Park  and  the  reservation,  the  country  had  been 
burned  over. 

Q.  That  was  outside  the  reservation  ? — A.  It  wras  outside  of  and  also 
on  the  reservation.  Jack  claimed  that  the  timber  had  been  burned  by 
white  men  ;  but,  as  there  were  no  white  men  there,  as  they  seldom, 
passed  through  that  territory,  and  as  there  were  none  camped  upon  the 
reservation,  it  was  not  at  all  likely  that  such  tires  originated  in  those 
mountains  at  that  time  through  the  agency  of  white  men. 

Q.  How  far  were  th^  Indians  from  the  agency  I — A.  They  were  then 
at  Middle  Park. 

Q.  How  far  is  that  from  the  agency? — A.  I  do  uot  know;  perhaps 
150  miles. 

Q.  What  time  was  that? — A.  This  was  in  the  latter  part  of  August, 
I  think.  For  weeks  at  a  time,  almost,  we  could  scarcely  see  the  sun  on 
account  of  the  smoke  from  the  burning  mountains  all  around  the  agency 
there;  and  at  night  the  whole  sky  would  be  lighted  up  by  the  tires  on 
the  mountains. 

Q.  Did  the  Indians  confess  to  having  burned  that  timber? — A.  They 
confessed  to  it  while  we  were  traveling  with  them.  We  traveled  for 
days  at  a  time  through  che  burnt  districts,  where  the  grass  and  every 
thing  had  all  been  burned,  and  1  asked  them  on  several  occasions  why 
they  burned  things  so.  They  would  laugh,  and  say  there  wouldn't  be 
any  grass  for  the  soldiers  when  they  came.  They  said  they  knew  where 
there  was  good  grass  for  themselves.  And  they  set  tire  to* it  for  several 
objects,  one  of  which  was  to  drive  game.  They  said  that,  having  set 
tire  to  it  on  the  lower  side  of  the  mountain,  they  would  go  around  to 
the  other  side  of  the  mountain  and  head  off  the  game.  Another  object 
was  to  have  dry  fuel  for  the  next  year.  As  I  was  saying,  most  of  the 
Indians  returned  to  the  agency  from  Middle  Park.  They  were  angry 


78  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

at  the  soldiers  coming  in  there  and  wanted  to  know  why  it  was  that 
Company  D  was  there;  but  as  the  soldiers  did  not  come  on  the  reser 
vation,  they  forgot  about  it  and  Jack  was  preparing  with  all  his  men  to 
go  north,  to  be  gone  all  winter  on  a  hunt,  and  was  just  about  to  start, 
when,  on  Friday  night,  he  came  in  very  much  excited,  saying  that  there 
were  troops  on  Bear  River.  The  agent  had  previously  been  informed 
by  the  department  that  they  had  sent  troops  in  for  his  protection.  Pre 
vious  to  this,  a  number  of  men  from  Middle  Park  County  and  from 
Denver  had  come  in  to  arrest  Chinaman  and  Bennett  for  burning 
Thompson's  house  and  Douglass  had  refused  to  give  them  up.  The 
agent  had  orders  from  Washington  to  have  these  men  arrested  ;  but,  of  . 
course,  nothing  of  the  kind  could  be  done,  as  there  were  only  some 
dozen  men  there,  and  if  these  had  attempted  to  make  the  arrests,  they 
would  have  been  murdered  before  they  had  left  the  reservation. 

Q.  The  agent  had  orders  to  arrest  them  ? — A.  The  agent  had  orders 
to  assist  in  making  their  arrest. 

Q.  Douglass  refused  to  surrender  them  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 
Q.  Did  he  know  they  had  been  guilty  of  the  offense  ? — A.  He  said  he 
did  not  know  anything  about  it;  that  he  did  not  know  of  any  such  doings, 
and  pretended  to  be  utterly  ignorant  of  the  whole  affair. 

Q.  Did  the  agent  make  any  effort  to  arrest  them  ? — A.  He  made 
an  effort  to  find  them. 

Q.  Did  that  create  any  feeling  between  the  agent  and  Jack  ? — A. 
Jack  was  not  there  at  that  time. 

Q.  Or  between  the  agent  and  Douglass  ? — A.  No,  nothing,  particularly. 
The  men  who  came  after  them  could  not  find  them,  and  they  returned. 
On  Friday  night,  Jack  came  in  and  said  there  were  soldiers  on  Bear 
River.  He  was  very  much  excited. 

Q.  Where  is  Bear  River? — A.  Bear  River  is  sixty  miles  from  the 
agency  and  off  from  the  reservation. 

Q.  How  far  from  the  reservation  ? — A.  1  don't  know  ;  I  suppose  fif 
teen  or  twenty  miles,  perhaps. 

Q.  Fifteen  or  twenty  miles  from  the  reservation  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  per 
haps  about  that ;  it  may  be  thirty  miles. 

Q.  Was  his  complaint  simply  that  the  troops  were  there  on  Bear 
River,  or  was  it  that  they  were  there  on  their  way  to  the  agency  or  res 
ervation  ? — A.  He  supposed  they  were  on  their  way  to  the  agency. 

Q.  That  was  his  complaint? — A.  Yes,  sir;  and  he  wished  to  know 
what  the  matter  was.  The  agent  told  him  he  did  not  know  that  they 
were  there  ;  that  that  was  the  first  we  had  heard  of  their  being  there  ; 
and  Jack  said  he  did  not  want  them  to  come  on  the  reservation.  Jack 
told  him  then  that  if  they  came  on  the  reservation  he  would  be  there  to 
meet  them  with  his  men  in  the  canon,  as  soon  as  they  attempted  it. 

Q.  That  was  on  Friday  night  ? — A.  Yes,  sir.  They  held  a  council  on 
Saturday,  in  the  forenoon. 

Q.  What  day  of  the  month  was  that?— A.  That  was  the  26th.  They 
held  this  council  and  requested  the  agent  to  send  out  for  Major  Thorn - 
burg  and  five  of  his  principal  men  to  come  on  the  reservation  and  com 
promise  the  matter,  but  to  leave  his  troops  outside. 

Q.  Did  anybody  share  in  this  council  besides  Jack  and  his  band  ? 
— A.  Both  Jack  and  Douglass  did.  The  agent  told  them  he  would  do 
what  he  could.  In  the  mean  time,  all  the  squaws  and  all  those  about 
the  agency  had  moved  across  the  river.  The  squaws  and  the  men  were 
very  much  frightened.  In  the  afternoon,  one  of  the  employes,  Mr.  Esk- 
ridge,  and  several  Indians,  started  to  meet  Major  Thoruburg  with  letters 
from  father,  stating  the  request  of  the  Indians.  He  (Eskridge)  told 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  79 

Major  Thornburg  that  he  would  not  attempt  to  tell  him  what  he  should 
do,  but  he  thought  it  might  be  best  lor  five  of  them  to  come  in  and  have 
a  talk  about  the  matter. 

Q.  That  was  your  father's  letter  ! — A.  That  was  my  father's  letter. 
A  tew  hours  after  their  departure,  Mr.  Lowry,  Major  Thornburg's  guide, 
came  into  the  agency  with  letters  from  Major  Thornburg  requesting 
the  agent  to  send  him  out  all  the  information  he  could  as  to  the  condi 
tion  of  the  Indians;  as  to  what  they  would  probably  do,  whether  they 
would  be  hostile  or  would  depart  at  his  approach.  As  father  had  already 
sent  out  these  letters  by  this  other  man,  who  had  left  a  few  hours  before,. 
Mr.  Lowry  remained  there  all  night.  The  Indians,  who  were  all  armed,, 
gathered  at  the  agency  and  were  continually  watching  around  to  hear 
what  they  could.  On  the  next  morning  (Sunday),  at  daybreak,  Doug 
lass  made  a  speech  to  his  men  at  his  camp.  Of  course  it  was  only  a  few 
yards  from  the  agency,  and  we  could  hear  him  speaking. 

Q.  Could  you  understand  him  ? — A.  No,  sir.  He  was  talking  in  Ute. 
We  did  not  pay  any  particular  attention  to  him. 

Q.  Did  you  learn  what  it  was  that  he  said  to  them  ? — A.  I  did  not. 
About  ten  o'clock,  Jack,  with  all  his  men,  came  down  from  where  he  was 
camped  and  gathered  around  at  Douglass's  camp,  over  which  the  Amer 
ican  flag  was  flying — which  meant,  "no  fight ;  peace."  They  bad  a  long 
council,  and  I  remember  remarking  to  Mrs.  Price,  as  I  came  into  the 
house,  that  whether  Douglass  was  chief  or  not,  Jack  and  all  of  his  men 
gathered  around  him  in  time  of  danger.  They  held  a  long  council  there, 
and  Jack  and  Douglass  were  suddenly  very  good  friends  apparently,  and 
now  I  believe,  as  I  believed  afterwards,  that  that  was  the  time  when  tbe- 
whole  massacre  and  fight  were  planned.  They  came  up  to  the  agency 

Q.  Did  they  come  together? — A.  Yes,  sir;  all  of  them  3aine  up  to  the 
agency,  and  they  claimed  that  three  of  their  men  (meaning  three  young 
men  of  about  18  or  19  years),  who  had  gone  to  meet  the  soldiers,  had 
not  returned,  and  that  the  soldiers  had  killed  them.  After  some  talk 
and  dispute,  the  agent  trying  all  the  time  to  quiet  them,  and  to  tell  them 
they  need  not  fear  anything  from  the  soldiers,  they  said  they  did  not 
fear  anything  from  them,  but  they  did  not  want  them  on  the  reservation,, 
because,  if  the  soldiers  came  there  the  Indians  would  have  to  stay  all 
the  time  on  the  reservation,  and  this  they  did  not  want  to  do  ;  that  they 
did  not  want  to  be  controlled  by  the  soldiers,  and  did  not  want  to  have 
them  there.  Mr.  Lowry,  to  satisfy  them  that  nothing  had  happened  to 
these  three  young  men,  started  out,  accompanied  by  Jack  and  several 
more,  in  search  of  them.  I  heard  nothing  further  about  them.  These 
Indians  went  away  peaceably;  that  is,  nothing  was  said.  Serwick 
came  down  to  take  dinner  with  us.  He  also  took  breakfast  and  supper 
with  us  on  the  day  before  the  massacre. 

Q.  Who  was  he  ! — A.  He  was  here  in  Washington  with  Jack.  "  Ser 
wick,"  they  call  him.  He  is  under  Jack.  He  is  no  particular  chief,  but 
does  as  Jack  tells  him ;  he  is  Jack's  right-hand  man.  This  was  Sunday 
afternoon.  Everything  was  quiet ;  the  employes  had  kept  guard  Fri 
day,  Saturday,  and  Sunday,  night  and  day,  taking  turns  in  relieving 
each  other,  or  changing  off,  as  we  were  afraid  that  the  Indians  might  set 
fire  to  some  of  the  buildings.  We  could  see  that  they  were  continually 
growing  more  angry.  At  first  they  were  very  much  frightened,  but,  as 
things  were  delayed,  as  the  soldiers  delayed  their  coming  in,  they  grew 
more  and  more  angry ;  and  they  were  all  well  armed.  On  Saturday 
afternoon,  a  number  of  them  went  out  to  Mr.  Taylor's  ranch  (the  nearest 
store)  on  Milk  Creek,  and  demanded  ammunition  and  guns.  Their  de- 


80  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

mand  was  refused,  as  all  the  ammunition  and  guns  had  been  sent  out 
only  a  lew  hours  before.  They  insisted  upon  having  what  they  wanted, 
and  dug  up  the  ground  all  around  wherever  they  thought  it  probable 
that  the  ammunition  had  been  hidden,  turned  the  store  all  over,  up 
side  down,  and  threatened  to  burn  everything,  and  to  kill  the  men  there. 
Some  of  the  older  ones  quieted  them  down,  and  they  went  away.  The 
news  of  the  condition  of  things  reached  Major  Thornburgh,  and  he  anti 
cipated  trouble.  On  Sunday  night,  a  war-dance  was  held  at  Douglass' 
camp,  which  lasted  most  of  the  night.  They  also  kept  a  pretty  good 
watch  over  the  agency  so  as  to  know  of  any  movements  that  might  take 
place  there.  The  agent  had  thought  to  take  the  family  and  all  the  em 
ployes,  go  out  to  the  troops,  and  come  in  with  them  ;  but  he  knew  now 
that  if  he  did  that,  everything  in  the  agency  (which  included  thousands 
and  thousands  of  dollars'  worth  of  goods  in  his  keeping,  as  all  the  an 
nuity  goods  were  in  there)  would  be  destroyed,  and  that  he  would  be 
held  responsible  for  everything  there.  Therefore  he  decided  to  remain. 
On  Monday  morning  Douglass  made  another  speech  to  his  men,  at  his 
camp.  On  Monday,  at  noon,  Mr.  Eskridge,  who  had  taken  the  message 
to  Mnjor  Thornburgh,  returned.  Jack,  who  had  been  out  to  the  soldiers 
on  several  occasions,  said  that  he  had  told  them  they  must  not  conie 
in  to  the  agency,  and  that  they  said  they  would  come  ;  that  he  had  told 
them  that  if  they  did  there  would  be  trouble,  when  Major  Thoruburgh 
told  them  that  he  had  orders  to  come  and  he  must  come.  But  Major 
Thornburgh,  in  his  letters,  wrote  that  he  did  not  wish  to  tight  them. 

Q.  Let  me  understand  that.  You  say  that  Major  Thoruburgh  told 
Jack  that  he  must  and  would  come  to  the  agency  1 — A.  Major  Thoru 
burgh  told  Jack  that  he  had  orders  to  come  through  to  the  agency,  and 
he  must  come. 

Q.  How  did  you  get  that  information  ? — A.  Jack  told  us  so.  I  think, 
though  I  am  not  positive,  that  Major  Thoruburgh  said  the  same  in  his 
letters,  or  about  that,  or  words  to  the  same  effect.  This  letter  that  this 
employe  brought  in,  I  think,  has  never  probably  been  obtained  by  any 
one,  because  the  massacre  occurred  about  half  an  hour  afterwards,  and 
it  was  probably  destroyed.  My  recollection  of  the  contents  of  the  let 
ter  (for  father  repeated  it  to  me),  was  that  it  was  words  to  this  effect : 
that  Major  Thoruburgh,  upon  hearing  how  the  Utes  had  conducted  them 
selves  at  this  ranch,  and  anticipating  trouble,  was  then  upon  day  and 
night  marches,  forcing  his  way  through  as  speedily  as  he  possibly  could, 
but  that  he  wished  this  news  to  be  kept  entirely  secret  from  the  Indians; 
that  he  did  not  wish  them  to  know  in  any  way  that  he  intended  to  come 
on  the  reservation ;  that  he  intended  to  bring  live  men  in  to  talk  with 
them,  and  that  he  wished  further  to  induce  Douglass  and  the  principal 
officers  to  meet  him  that  night  o»  Milk  Creek,  to  hold  a  council  there, 
when  he  (Major  Thoruburgh)  in-tended  not  only  to  meet  the  Indiaus'hiui- 
self,  but  to  have  all  the  troops  meet  them,  and  when  they  would  take 
care  of  them  and  march  into  the  agency,  thinking  thereby  to  avoid 
any  difficulty,  as  he  would  bring  the  principal  chiefs  with  him. 

Q.  All  that  you  now  state,  you  say,  was  disclosed  to  your  father  in 
that  letter? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did  that  get  to  the  ears  of  the  Indians  in  any  way  ?—  A.  No,  sir. 
Major  Thornburgh  wished  father  to  return  an  answer  immediately.  The 
employe  who  brought  the  letter  got  in  just  about  noon.  As  soon  as  he 
bad  eaten  his  dinner,  he  prepared  to  return  and  wished  an  escort  to  go 
with  him.  The  agent  asked  Douglass  to  send  some  men  with  him,  but 
Douglass  at  first  refused  to  do  this.  However,  after  a  little,  having 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  81 

gone  home  and  talked  the  matter  over  with  the  rest  of  them,  he  came 
back  and  said  he  would  send  two  good  men.  He  sent  Ebenezer  and 
Antelope  (the  latter  being  Jane's  brother-in-law),  who  started  off  after 
I  had  put  them  up  some  dinner.  In  about  fifteen  or  twenty  minutes, 
one  of  these  men  was  seen  to  return  to  the  agency.  Douglass  and  all 
of  them  came  into  the  house — all  of  them  were  well  armed — and  we 
gave  them  all  around  something  to  eat.  Douglass  was  in  very  high 
spirits.  He  was  laughing  and  joking  with  me,  and  promised  to  bring 
back  to  school  his  little  boy  whom  he  had  taken  away  the  day  before. 
He  said  he  would  bring  him  back  that  afternoon  ;  that  he  wanted  him 
to  learn  to  read  and  write ;  that  the  agent  was  pretty  good ;  that  all 
the  squaws  were  pretty  good.  He  seemed  to  be  very  much  pleased  over 
something.  Another  Indian  came  in  and  borrowed  some  matches,  as 
he  wanted  to  smoke,  as  he  said.  About  this  time  the  agent  came  in 
and  wanted  to  find  some  keys  so  as  to  lock  up  the  employes7  room,  where 
all  their  guns  and  the  government  guns  were  kept.  After  looking  for 
them  he  told  me  that  he  had  found  the  keys,  and  he  then  went  to  lock 
up  the  room.  It  was  about  15  or  20  minutes  after  Douglass  had  gone 
out  (I  was  washing  the  dinner  dishes  at  the  time),  when  we  heard  very 
suddenly  several  guns  fired  off.  I  ran  and  looked  out  of  the  window  in 
the  direction  from  which  the  sound  of  the  firing  came.  There  was  a 
new  building  there  on  which  all  the  employe's  had  been  at  work — the 
flour-house — and,  looking  in  the  direction  of  that  building,  I  saw  some 
fifteen  or  twenty  Indians  firing  at  the  employes,  who  were  running  in 
every  direction  and  trying  to  escape. 

Q.  In  that  connection  give,  if  you  can,  the  names  of  the  Indians  whom 
you  saw  1 — A.  I  cannot  give  them. 

By  Mr.  POEHLER  : 

Q.  Was  this  Douglass's  band  ? — A.  It  was  Douglass's  band,  as  Jack's 
band  was  camped  fifteen  miles  away. 

Q.  And  Douglass  was  in  camp  there  ? — A.  Douglass  was  in  camp  at 
the  agency. 

By  Mr.  HOOKER  : 

Q.  Can  you  name  no  one  of  the  persons  whom  you  then  saw  ?  Did 
you  recognize  none  of  them? — A.  What  names  we  remembered  were 
fresh  in  our  minds  as  we  came  out  of  the  agency,  and  we  gave  a  list  of 
them  to  Major  Pollock.  He  took  it  officially  for  the  use  of  the  govern 
ment,  and  those  names  are  more  correct  than  would  be  any  I  could  give 
you  at  this  day. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Had  you,  up  to  this  time,  heard  anything  from  the  troops  as  to 
what  had  taken  place  on  their  part  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  had  not  heard  a  word  ? — A.  Previous  to  this,  some  half  an 
hour  before,  a  runner  was  seen  to  come  in. 

By  Mr.  WADDILL  :. 

Q.  An  Indian  ? — A.  An  Indian  runner.  He  came  in  and  stopped  at 
Douglass's  camp.  We  did  not  think  very  much  about  it,  because  we  did 
not  know  very  much  about  runners  at  that  time.  As  soon  as  we  saw  that 
they  were  fighting,  we  took  the  children  and  went  into  the  milk-house, 
which  adjoins  the  kitchen,  locked  the  door,  bolted  the  outside  door,  and  sat 
down  on  the  floor.  Frank  Dresser,  an  employe,  ran  into  the  house,  pro. 
cured  Mr.  Price's  gun  in  the  room  of  Mr.  Price,  which  adjoined  the  cook, 
house,  fired  one  shot,  and  hit  an  Indian  who  was  Johnson's  brother. 

H.  Mis.  38 6 


82  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

We  sat  there  and  Frank  Dresser  joined  us.  He  told  us  that  he  had 
heard  Douglass  talking  very  loudly  to  his  men  ;  that  he  knew  it  was 
Douglass  who  spoke  by  his  voice  ;  that  he  had  made  his  escape  and  ran 
into  the  employes'  icom  to  get  some  of  the  guns,  but  that  the  govern 
ment  guns,  all  the  employes'  guns,  and  everything,  had  been  stolen. 
We  sat  there  all  the  afternoon.  At  intervals  it  would  be  perfectly 
quiet,  and  then  again  the  firing  would  break  out  with  say  half  a  dozen 
or  perhaps  a  dozen  gun-shots  at  once.  Then  it  would  be  quiet  again. 
Then  the  guns  would  break  out  again.  It  was  very  evident  to  us  that 
they  were  carrying  off  the  goods,  and  that  when  they  would  see  a  man 
they  would  shoot  him.  We  found  that  they  were  busy  stealing  the 
goods,  and  that  as  they  would  see  a  man  belonging  to  the  agency,  they 
would  shoot  him.  It  kept  up  that  way  until  about  five  o'clock.  The 
massacre  commenced  at  about  half  past  one,  and,  at  about  five  o'clock, 
we  discovered  that  the  house  had  been  fired.  We  then  unlocked  the 
doors  and  ran  around  into  father's  room.  We  found  there  that  nothing 
whatever  had  been  disturbed.  No  one  was  there.  Then  we  thought 
that  if  we  could  make  our  escape  across  this  plowed  field  into  the  sage 
brush  beyond,  which  was  4  or  5  feet  high,  we  might  possibly  make  good 
our  escape.  Mr.  Dresser  ran  across  the  field,  he  being  able  to  run  much 
faster  than  we  could,  as,  on  account  of  my  mother  being  lame,  we  could 
not  move  very  rapidly.  The  Indians,  who  were  off  down  toward  the 
river  carrying  off  blankets  and  goods,  discovered  us,  began  firing  at  us, 
and  came  running  up,  calling  us  to  stop.  When  they  came  up  to  us  we 
stopped.  One  bullet  from  their  guns  hit  my  mother,  but  did  not  seri 
ously  hurt  her,  as  it  made  but  a  slight  flesh-wound.  Frank  Dresser  had 
been  shot  previously  through  the  thigh,  though  it  did  not  seriously  disa 
ble  him,  he  said.  But  I  suppose  that  some  of  the  bullets  that  were  fired 
at  him  as  he  crossed  the  field  must  have  hit  him.  When  we  last  saw 
him  he  was  safe  in  the  sage-brush.  The  Indians  told  us  to  come  with 
them,  and  of  course  we  had  to  comply.  They  promised  us  they  would 
not  shoot  us  or  hurt  us  in  any  way.  They  took  us  down  toward  the  river 
where  each  one  of  them  had  his  pile  of  goods.  They  asked  mother  if 
she  had  any  money,  and  allowed  her  to  go  back  to  the  agency  to  get 
money  and  some  other  things.  She  went  back,  and  on  the  way  saw 
the  body  of  father  in  the  street.  It  had  been  stripped  of  all  clothing 
except  his  shirt,  but  had  not  been  disfigured  in  any  way.  He  had  been 
shot  through  the  forehead.  He  was  the  only  person  whom  she  saw. 
The  rest  of  us  saw  no  one.  The  Indians  at  this  time  were  busily  occu 
pied  in  stealing  goods,  and  most  of  the  buildings  were  on  fire.  The 
building  that  we  had  come  out  of,  my  own  room,  the  cook-house,, 
and  Mrs.  Price's  room,  were  all  on  fire,  and  the  roof  had  fallen  in.  They 
gathered  together  all  the  goods  that  they  could  get  hold  of,  took  the 
agency's  saddles  and  all  the  agency's  teams  that  they  could  catch, 
packed  them  heavily  with  goveinment  goods — these,  including  flour,  all 
kinds  of  blankets,  and  everything  else ;  and,  just  at  dark,  after  we  had 
been  mounted,  started  across  the  river  directly  south. 

By  Mr.  HOOKER  : 

Q.  Did  they  burn  the  Indian  houses,  or  only  the  agency  building? — 
A.  Only  the  agency  building.  There  was  but  one  Indian  house  there 
(Johnson's  house),  and  that  house  was  half  a  mile  away  from  the  agency 
building.  All  the  other  Indian  houses  were  up  at  the  old  agency.  We 
traveled  until  about  one  or  two  o'clock  at  night,  when  we  came  to  the 
ulace  at  which  the  rest  of  Douglass's  men  were  camped. 

Q.  Give  the  committee  in  that  connection — so  that  your  story  may  be 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  83 

more  connected  and  intelligible — the  names  of  the  Indians  who  captured 
arid  carried  you  away. — A.  An  Indian  by  the  name  of  Persuue  cap 
tured  me,  and  Douglass  took  mother.  An  Uucompahgre  Indian,  or1 
one  who  claimed  to  be  such,  whom  we  did  not  know,  took  Mrs.  Price. 
She  was  taken  to  Jack's  camp.  I  did  not  see  her  at  all.  Mother  and 
I  went  to  Douglass's  camp. 

By  Mr.  POEHLER  : 

Q.  There  were  how  many  Indians  there  all  together  when  you  tried  to 
escape  and  were  taken  prisoners"? — A.  There  were  about  twenty- five  or 
thirty  there  when  we  came  out  of  the  agency.  They  all  had  their  guns 
and  were  well  armed.  They  had  plenty  of  ammunition  and  plenty  of 
whisky.  Most  of  them  were  drunk. 

Q.  That  is  at  the  time  when  you  attempted  to  cross  the  field  to  the 
sage-brush  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  when  they  first  captured  us.  There  was  no 
one  of  them  there  who  did  not  take  part  in  the  massacre.  They  were 
all  busily  engaged  in  carrying  off  goods  when  we  came  out,  and  had 
been  busily  engaged  in  killing  the  men. 

Q.  What  others  of  the  Indians  who  were  there  did  you  know  beside 
the  three  you  have  named? — A.  We  knew  several;  but,  as  I  said  be 
fore,  I  would  not  like  to  give  the  names  now,  as  I  do  not  know  that 
they  would  agree  with  the  names  I  have  already  given,  and  those  other 
names  are  more  correct  than  any  I  can  now  give.  We  camped  that 
night  with  the  rest  of  them  in  this  canon. 
By  the  CHAIRMAN: 

Q.  That  is,  you  and  your  mother?  I  understand  that  Mrs.  Price  had 
gone  to  the  other  camp? — A.  Yes,  sir.  That  camp  was  about  five  or 
eight  miles  from  Jack's  camp.  In  the  morning,  early,  all  the  men 
cleaned  up  their  guns,  supplied  themselves  well  with  ammunition,  and 
started,  as  they  told  us,  to  fight  the  soldiers.  Of  course  we  were  won 
dering  why  the  troops  did  not  come  in.  Meanwhile,  for  two  days,  all 
the  squaws  were  busy  in  going  back  to  the  agency  and  carrying  off 
more  flour  and  more  goods.  The  building  used  as  a  warehouse,  in  which 
the  goods  were  stored,  had  not  been  burned.  They  carried  off  all  the 
flour  and  provisions  that  they  could  find  and  destroyed  the  rest. 

By  Mr.  GUNTER  : 

Q.  How  far  were  you  from  the  agency  when  you  were  in  camp  ? — A. 
I  should  think  we  were  about  ten  miles.  But  the  reason  why  it  took 
us  so  long  as  it  did  to  get  there  was  that  the  squaws,  during  the  day, 
had  moved  the  camp,  and  the  men  with  us  took  us  several  miles  out  of 
the  way,  and  then  we  had  to  go  around  back  again ;  so  that  we  did 
not  get  there  until  about  two  o'clock.  I  should  think  we  were  about 
ten  miles  off,  but  a  short  distance  across  the  mountains  from  where  the 
fighting  with  the  troops  was.  The  massacre  was  on  Monday,  the  29th, 
and  we  staid  there  in  this  canon  until  Thursday.  Some  of  the  men  re 
turned  and  others  would  go  out.  They  did  not  seem  to  be  frightened 
at  all  about  the  soldiers.  Just  enough  of  them  went  out  to  keep  the 
soldiers  well  surrounded.  We  asked  them  where  the  soldiers  were,  and 
they  told  us  they  had  them  in  "a  cellar,"  as  they  called  it.  They  said 
the  Utes  were  all  round  in  the  hills  and  hidden  in  the  cedars;  that  they 
did  not  kill  very  many  soldiers,  but  that  the  soldiers'  horses  were  (lying 
for  want  of  water  and  food.  They  added  that  at  night  they  would  crawl 
up  close  to  the  soldiers,  and,  if  they  could,  shoot  them. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 
Q.  What  portion  of  the  Indians  was  in  camp  from  Monday  to  Thurs- 


84  UiE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

day? — A.  There  were  perhaps  80  lodges  with   Douglass,  and  the  rest 
were  with  Jack. 

Q.  Were  many  of  those  men  who  were  iu  camp  fighting  men?— A. 
Yes,  sir;  a  number  of  them. 

Q.  Were  the  men  of  that  class  as  many  as  one-half  of  the  whole  num 
ber  of  men  in  camp,  do  you  think  I — A.  No  ;  the  heads  of  families,  and 
the  men  who  were  old  enough  to  go  to  light  the  soldiers,  did  not  num 
ber  one  half  of  the  whole  camp.  But  most  of  the  men  who  were  in 
camp  went  to  fight  the  soldiers  during  that  week.  On  Thursday  we 
moved  on  about  ten  miles  farther,  and  camped  again.  On  Sunday  night 
they  told  us  that  a  white  man  from  Uucompahgre  had  come  in,  and 
that  we  would  see  him  ;  that  he  had  come  for  the  purpose  of  seeing  us. 
On  the  following  morning  we  asked  them  where  he  was,  and  they  told 
us  that  he  had  come  to  see  the  soldiers ;  that  he  had  come  to  bring  or 
ders  from  the  agent  to  the  soldiers  to  stop  fighting.  The  fact  in  regard 
to  that  was  that  the  orders  were  from  On  ray  to  the  Utes  to  stop  fighting 
the  soldiers.  They  told  us  that  the  white  man  said  that  he  could  not 
come  to  see  us,  because  he  was  in  a  great  hurry  to  go  back.  We  after 
wards  found  out  that  they  had  pretended  to  this  white  man — he  being 
a  stranger,  an  Uncompabgre — that  they  did  not  understand  a  word  of 
English ;  that  they  did  not  know  a  word  of  it ;  that  they  had  told  him 
we  had  not  been  at  the  agency,  and  that  they  did  not  know  a  thing  about 
us.  At  that  moment  we  were  less  than  a  quarter  of  a  mile  from  where 
the  man  passed,  but  they  would  not  let  us  stir  out  of  the  tent.  We  were 
all  the  time  subject  to  them,  to  their  orders,  and  would  have  to  obey  them 
even  to  going  to  get  a  drink  of  water  almost.  If  they  told  us  at  any 
time  to  go  and  bring  some  water  or  get  some  wood,  of  course  we  would 
have  to  do  it.  They  did  not,  however,  leave  the  soldiers  when  these 
orders  came,  but  remained  until  reinforcements  came  in,  when  Douglass 
and  the  rest  of  them  returned  to  camp  and  stated  that  any  number  of 
soldiers  were  coming  all  the  way  from  liawlins,  into  White  River,  and 
they  were  afraid.  So  they  packed  up  and  moved  on.  While  at  this 
place,  Jack  came  to  see  me  and  laid  before  me  his  grievances  against 
the  agent,  and  against  the  soldiers,  and  all  of  them.  He  said  that  if 
the  agent  had  done  as  he  ought  to  have  done,  there  would  not  have  been 
any  massacre;  that  the  agent  refused  to  give  them  a  hundred  pounds 
of  flour  when  he  (Jack)  asked  him  to ;  that  he  refused  to  give  out  the 
blankets  at  the  time  that  he  (Jack)  wanted  them,  so  that  they  could  go 
off  the  reservation  and  hunt.  He  said,  too,  that  the  agent  had  been  con 
tinually  wTitiug  to  Washington  to  get  soldiers  in  there;  that  all  those 
wild  and  exaggerated  stories  which  they  had  seen  in  the  Denver  papers 
about  the  agency  being  burned,  and  about  "  the  Utes  must  go,"  had 
been  written  by  father.  He  said  the  Indians  declared  and  insisted  that 
father  wrote  them  all,  and  that  these  stories  had  always  been  inter 
preted  and  exaggerated  to  these  Indians ;  that  they  had  insisted  that 
father  had  written  them  all,  and  had  done  everything  that  he  could  do 
against  them.  They  were  very  much  enraged  over  some  pictures  they 
had  found  in  Major  Thornburg's  pocket.  They  were  pictures  of  the 
agent,  my  mother  and  myself,  and  several  other  of  the  employes,  rep 
resenting  us  as  having  all  been  murdered,  showing  where  we  had  been 
shot  in  different  places — one  through  the  head,  another  through  the 
breast,  and  so  forth,  while  our  bodies  were  covered  with  blood.  He 
insisted  that  father  had  made  those  pictures,  and  sent  them  out  to  the 
soldiers  so  as  to  get  them  in  there,  and  to  make  them  angry  with  the 
Utes. 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  85 

Q.  Were  any  such  pictures  in  fact  in  existence  ? — A.  I  think  there- 
were. 

Q.  You  think  that  there  were  such  pictures  ? — A.  I  was  told  this  same 
story  some  half  dozen  times  by  different  ones,  and  the  story  was  always 
the  same.  They  became  perfectly  frantic  with  anger  as  they  told  me 
about  the  pictures.  These  pictures  had  been  drawn,  I  suppose,  by  some 
white  person  ;  I  do  not  know  by  whom. 

Q.  You  did  not  see  the  pictures  ? — A.  I  did  not  see  them. 

Q.  You  say  they  were  found  in  Major  Thornburgh's  pocket  after  he 
was  killed  ? — A.  They  were  found  on  the  soldiers — either  in  the  pockets 
of  that  officer  or  in  the  pockets  of  some  of  the  soldiers. 

Q.  That  was  after  the  fight? — A.  Yes,  sir;  that  was  after  the  fight. 

Q.  The  fight  took  place  before  the  massacre  at  the  agency  occurred  ? 
— A.  It  took  place  a  couple  of  hours  before. 

Q.  Have  you  any  idea  who  could  have  drawn  those  pictures  and  sent 
them  out  there? — A.  I  have  not. 

Q,  You  saw  no  such  pictures  at  the  agency  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Your  father  drew  no  such  pictures,  so  far  as  you  know  1 — A.  No, 
sir. 

Q.  And,  as  far  as  you  know,  none  went  from  the  agency  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  said  you  heard  about  these  pictures  from  somebody  else 
than  Jack.  From  whom  else  did  you  hear  of  them  ? — A.  I  heard  of  them 
from  Douglass  and  from  a  number  of  them,  and  I  have  great  reason  to 
believe  that  such  pictures  were  in  existence. 

Q.  You  had  reason  for  the  belief  that  there  were  such  pictures? — A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  this  conversation  you  have  narrated,  it  was  Jack  who  was  mak 
ing  these  complaints  to  you,  was  it  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  Jack  told  you  that  those  pictures  were  there  and  that  he  saw 
them  ! — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Douglass  afterwards  told  you  that  he  saw  the  pictures,  and  that 
they  were  sent  to  the  soldiers? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Have  you  any  other  reason  for  believing  that  there  were  such  pic 
tures  I — A.  I  have  reason  for  believing  it,  because  a  number  of  the  In 
dians — not  less  than  half  a  dozen — told  me  the  same  story,  and  the 
description  they  gave  was  always  exactly  the  same  which  had  already 
been  given  me ;  and  also  because  of  the  anger  they  would  show  in  tell 
ing  about  it.  I  was  talking  with  Mr.  Brady  about  it,  and  he  also  said 
he  was  sure  there  were  such  pictures  in  existence. 

Q.  Did  you  ask  to  see  the  pictures? — A.  Yes.  They  said  they  had 
destroyed  them. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  DEERING.)  If  I  understand  it,  those  pictures  showed  the 
wounds  upon  the  bodies  of  those  who  had  been  shot  and  killed,  and  that 
all  of  you  had  been  shot  and  killed? — A.  Yes,  sir.  And  the  Indians 
insisted  that  father  had  drawn  the  pictures  and  sent  them  out ;  that  he 
had  also  written  these  wild  and  exaggerated  reports,  and  that  he  was 
continually  against  them.  Jane  told  me  that  we  could  not  expect  any 
thing  else  other  than  a  massacre  there ;  that  the  white  employes  all 
should  be  killed. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  WADDILL.)  Was  that  before  the  massacre?— A.  No;  it 
was  after  it. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Was  it  after  this  conversation  between  you  and  Jack? — A.  Yes, 
sir.  She  said  that  father  had  always  refused  to  mind  the  Utes;  that  he 
had  not  done  as  they  had  told  him  to  do  ;  that  they  told  him  to  give  out 


86  UTE    INDIAN   OUTBREAK. 

rations  in  such  and  such  amounts,  and  that  he  did  not  do  that ;  that 
they  had  told  him  to  stop  work  there,  and  that  he  did  not  do  that; 
that  they  had  told  him  to  do  a  number  of  things,  and  that  he  did  not 
do  them ;  that  he  did  not  mind  the  Utes  at  all.  She  always  said  she 
knew  it  would  be  so  when  we  first  came  there.  She  also  stated  this  a 
number  of  times  when  we  first  came  there,  that  Mr.  Danforth  and  Mrs. 
Dan  forth,  who  were  agents  before  us,  upon  leaving,  had  told  the  Utes, 
a  number  of  times,  that  now  the  new  agent  was  coming  and  all  the  Utes 
would  have  to  suffer,  and  that  they  would  be  greatly  abused  in  every 
way. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  WADDILL).  Did  I  understand  you  to  say  that  Jane  is  a 
white  woman  ? — A.  I  said  she  had  lived  for  a  number  of  years  in  a  white 
family  f 

Q.  But  is  an  Indian  woman  J? — A.  She  is  an  Indian  woman. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Were  those  all  the  complaints  that  Jack  made  to  you  ? — A.  O, 
they  made  a  great  many  complaints. 

Q.  Were  any  of  them  complaints  that  went  back  to  a  time  prior  to 
that  at  which  your  father  came  to  the  agency  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  There  were  no  complaints  of  anything  prior  to  that  time  ? — A.  Not 
to  me.  They  were  complaining  about  the  present  agent;  that  is,  Jack 
was. 

Q.  You  heard  of  no  complaints  about  anything  that  occurred  before 
your  father  went  there  as  agent  f — A.  No,  sir. 

By  Mr.  GUNTER  : 

Q.  These  pictures  that  are  spoken  of— did  the  Indians  say  they  had 
seen  or  heard  anything  of  them  prior  to  the  attack  on  the  troops  and 
prior  to  the  massacre  at  the  agency? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  They  found  all  the  pictures  after  that  ? — A.  I  think  so. 

Q.  Or  did  they  find  the  pictures  after  the  fight  and  before  the  mas 
sacre,  do  you  know  how  that  was  ? — A.  I  will  not  be  certain  as  to  how 
that  was.  I  remember  they  said  they  saw  the  pictures.  Jack  told  us 
that  Major  Thornburgh  had  not  treated  them  right.  He  said  he  went  to 
Major  Thornburgh  before  the  fight  and  asked  him  what  he  was  going  to 
do  on  the  reservation.  He  said  Major  Thornburgh  told  him  they  had 
come  there  to  fight,  to  make  them  behave  themselves ;  and  had  come 
thereto  arrest  a  number  of  them — Jack,  Bennett,  and  Chinaman — giving 
me  exactly  the  same  names  that  Major  Thornburgh  had  given  as  those 
of  the  men  he  was  intending  to  arrest.  How  they  found  out  those 
names  unless  Major  Thornburgh  gave  them  those  names,  I  do  not  know. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Had  Major  Thornburgh  given  those  names  to  your  father  by  letter  I 
— A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  had  stated  that  he  was  going  to  arrest  the  men  so  named  ?— 
A.  Jack  said  that  Major  Thornburgh  said  he  was  going  to  arrest  them, 
ake  them  to  Fort  Steele,  and  perhaps  hang  them. 

Q.  Were  those  the  parties  against  whom  civil  process  had  been  issued 
for  burning  Thompson's  house  ? — A.  Bennett  and  Chinaman  were. 

Q.  Any  others  ? — A.  No. 

Mr.  GUNTER.  I  understand,  from  the  statement  of  this  young  lady, 
that  Major  Thoruburgh  aimed  to  get  Jack,  Douglass,  and  several  others 
of  these  parties  to  meet  him,  then  to  arrest  them  and  to  bring  them  into 
the  agency  with  him  as  he  approached  the  agency.  That  was  the  idea  I 
caught  from  her  statement. 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  87 

The  CHAIRMAN.  She  did  say  that,  and  she  also  stated  that  in  the 
letter  to  her  father  Major  Thornburgh  mentioned  the  names  of  several 
Indians  whom  he  intended  to  arrest.  [To  the  witness.]  Did  he  not  ? 

The  WITNESS.  Yes,  sir.  My  understanding  was  that  he  would  not 
attempt  to  arrest  them  until  after  he  got  into  the  agency.  And  of  course 
the  arrest  was  aimed  at  other  parties  besides  those  named,  who  had  been 
committing  depredations.  Jack  said  that  if  they  would  have  to  go  to 
Fort  Steele,  they  might  as  well  fight  the  soldiers  themselves.  But  it  was 
all  previously  planned,  because  Jack  had  given  father  warning  that  they 
would  fight  if  the  soldiers  came  on  the  reservation ;  that  they  would  meet 
them  right  there  where  they  did  in  fact  afterwards  meet  them. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  WADDILL.)  He  told  your  father  that? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Jack  had  told  your  father  that  before  he  saw  the  soldiers  ? — A. 
Yes,  sir ;  when  he  first  heard  that  they  were  coming  in.  Jack  was  up 
there  where  the  soldiers  were  with  all  of  his  men  hidden  in  the  hills, 
which  are  high  and  covered  with  scrub  cedar. 

Q.  Let  us  now  go  back  for  a  moment  to  this  matter  of  the  arrest. 
You  say  that  there  were  two  of  them  whom  Major  Thornburgh  wanted  to 
arrest  under  civil  process  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  did  he  say  he  wanted  to  arrest  the  others  for  ? — A.  He  was 
going  to  arrest  Johnson,  I  think,  for  attacking  father,  but  I  do  not  know 
as  to  that.  He  simply  said  that  he  had  warrants  to  arrest  them. 

Q.  How  many  and  whom  did  he  say  he  was  going  to  arrest? — A. 
Johnson,  Chinaman,  and  Bennett;  and  that  he  was  going  to  see  how 
Jack  conducted  himself. 

Mr.  HOOKER.  You  are  at  liberty  now,  Miss  Meeker,  to  proceed  with 
your  detailed  statement  from  the  point  at  which  you  left  off. 

The  WITNESS  (resuming).  Jack  told  us  several  times,  as  they  all  did, 
how  the  fight  commenced.  Jack  said  that  he  met  Major  Thornburgh 
there,  requested  him  to  go  back,  and  that  Major  Thornburgh  told  him 
that  he  would  not  go  back.  He  said  that  Major  Thornburgh  talked  very 
bad  to  him.  It  seems  they  got  into  a  quarrel  and  Major  Thoruburgh  told 
him  that,  if  he  wanted  to  fight,  he  [Major  Thoruburgh]  was  ready  to  fight 
them,  and  that  as  he  brought  down  his  gun,  all  of  Jack's  men  sprang 
out  and  instantly  Major  Thornburgh  and  five  of  his  men  fell. 

Q.  (By  Mr.HASKELL.)  That  is  Jack's  story? — A.  That  is  Jack's  story — 
well,  that  is  the  Utes'  story;  they  all  tell  the  same  story.  The  conclu 
sion  that  I  drew  from  their  story,  while  in  camp,  was  that  the  soldiers 
had  a  good  quantity  of  liquor  at  the  time;  that  they  were  not  expecting 
the  Utes  and  had  partaken  pretty  freely.  And  after  I  came  out,  I  as 
certained  from  a  number  of  sources  that  the  soldiers  did  have  liquor 
with  them ;  that  they  all  carried  it,  and  that  two  barrels  of  liquor  fol 
lowed  them  in.  The  Utes  probably  got  their  liquor  that  they  had  at 
the  time  of  the  massacre  from  the  soldiers,  because  they  did  not  get  it 
at  the  agency ;  and  I  am  sure  that  they  did  not  get  it  at  the  stores,  for 
I  do  not  think  that  the  stores  kept  any  liquor  at  the  time. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  From  whom  did  you  learn  that  the  soldiers  had  this  liquor? — A^ 
From  a  number  of  parties  who  had  seen  the  soldiers  on  their  way  in. 

Q.  Were  those  parties  Indians  I — A.  No,  sir  ;  white  men. 

Q.  Do  you  know  the  names  of  any  of  them  ?— A.  Mr.  Taylor  was  one, 
Mr.  Peck  was  another,  Mr.  Mansfield  was  anot  her,  Mr.  Clark  was  an 
other. 

Q.  You  learned  of  this  afterwards  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  but  I  came  to  the 


88  UTE   INDIAN   OUTBREAK, 

conclusion  at  the  time,  from  the  stories  the  Utes  told  ine,  that  they  had 
liquor  in  camp. 

Q.  Did  the  Utes  tell  you  that?— A.  The  Utes  did  not  tell  me  anything 
about  it,  but  the  liquor  which  the  Utes  had  was  all  in  those  flat  bottles, 
and  there  were  no  bottles  of  that  kind  about  the  agency  at  all. 

Q.  Proceed  with  your  statement. — A.  We  camped  there  until  Tues 
day.  We  traveled  all  day  on  Tuesday  and  Wednesday,  and  on  Saturday 
part  of  the  day.  Then  on  Sunday  they  camped.  They  were  about  to 
return,  some  20  of  them,  to  White  Eiver  to  see  what  the  soldiers  were 
about,  when  they  suddenly  discovered  that  the  soldiers  were  approach 
ing  A  number  of  them  had  glasses,  and  they  would  get  up  on  those 
high  mountains  and  watch  the  progress  of  the  soldiers  for  distances  of 
20,  30,  or  40  miles.  They  would  tell  us  just  where  the  soldiers  were  and 
what  they  were  doing  ;  and  every  time  the  soldiers  would  advance  they 
would  move  on.  They  became  very  much  frightened,  and  therefore 
moved  on.  While  we  were  camped  some  of  the  men  would  go  out,  be 
gone  four  or  five  days,  and  return  with  a  lot  of  very  fine  horses  and  a 
quantity  of  ammunition,  lead,&c.,  some  canned  fruit,  and  one  thiugor  an 
other,  which,  it  was  very  evident,  they  had  stolen  or  picked  up  from 
the  stores  around  the  Bear  Eiver  and  from  stray  stock.  They  would 
tell  us  that  they  had  camped  within  a  few  miles  of  the  soldiers,  some 
times  within  halt  a  mile  of  them— they  had  perhaps  been  watching  them 
— and  that  the  soldiers  would  never  see  them,  as  they  understood  the 
country  and  would  keep  hidden  in  those  cedars.  The  country  was 
thickly  covered  with  cedars.  Finally  some  20  or  30,  who  had  returned 
to  watch  the  soldiers  more  closely,  discovered  that  they  were  approach 
ing,  and  some  10  or  15  miles  out ;  whereupon  they  became  very  much 
frightened  and  started  to  travel  all  day.  This  was  on  Tuesday,  as  they 
afterwards  told  us.  They  told  us  almost  everything  that  we  wanted  to 
know,  as  we  then  belonged  to  the  camp.  They  then  informed  us  that 
they  were  going  to  leave  the  squaws  there  on  that  river,  and  that  if  the 
soldiers  pressed  them  they  were  all  ready  for  a  fight ;  that  they  would 
canon  them  in  some  of  those  mountains  as  they  had  done  before,  15  or 
20  miles  from  water,  and  that  they  would  stay  on  those  high  hills  among 
the  cedars,  and  would  hold  the  soldiers  there  and  would  kill  them.  They 
felt  confident  that  they  could  do  this  without  any  trouble.  The  two  or 
three  families  in  which  we  were  they  disposed  of  in  this  way  :  They  took 
us  off  some  10  or  15  miles  to  a  little  creek  called  called  Plateau  Creek, 
where,  if  they  meant  to  fight  or  have  any  trouble,  the  soldiers  would  not 
find  us  at  all.  They  meant  to  have  us  secure.  It  was  at  this  point  that 
General  Adams  found  us,  when  we  were  released. 

Q.  Then  you  returned  to  the  agency  ? — A.  We  returned  to  Los  Pinos 
'Agency. 

By  Mr.  HOOKER  : 

Q.  Please  state  in  that  connection  how  General  Adams  was  permitted 
to  approach  the  grounds. — A.  On  Monday  night  they  told  us  that 
some  Uncompahgre  Utes  had  come  in  and  that  these  Utes  said 
there  were  some  white  men  who  were  corning  in  the  next  day. 
They  had  previously  told  us — in  fact  they  had  told  us  this  ever 
since  we  had  left  the  agency — that  there  would  be  some  white 
men  after  us.  They  said  the  white  men  who  had  come  had  prom 
ised  to  be  back  for  us  in  five  days  from  that  first  Sunday,  the  time 
at  which  they  stopped  the  fighting,  and  as  they  did  not  come,  they 
thought  the  white  men  did  not  want  us;  and,  if  so,  they  would  keep 
us.  Henry  James  and  Co-ho,  an  Uncompahgre  Ute,  had  gone  a  few  days 


UTE    INblAN    OUTBREAK  89 

before  to  see  where  the  white  men  were;  why  they  did  not  come  after 
us,  and  what  they  were  about.  On  the  day  before  that  on  which  Gen 
eral  Adams  came^in,  these  two  men  returned  and  said  they  thought  the 
white  men  would  be  in  in  the  morning.  The  next  morning  about  eleven 
o'clock  I  saw  them  coming  over  the  hills,  and  as  they  passed  near  where  I 
was,  a  squaw  tried  to  cover  me  up  with  a  blanket  and  keep  me  in  the 
tent.  She  made  so  much  fuss,  however,  that  it  attracted  their  atten 
tion  and  they  halted.  I  pushed  the  squaw  aside  and  went  out,  when 
General  Adams  dismounted,  shook  hands  with  me  and  said  he  had  come 
to  take  me  back  if  I  would  go.  He  asked  where  my  mother  and  Mrs. 
Price  were.  I  told  him  I  thought  they  were  in  camp  about  half  a  mile 
from  our  camp,  though  I  had  not  seen  them  for  several  days.  He  said 
he  would  go  there  and  return  in  the  afternoon  and  see  me.  Be  did  not; 
do  it,  however.  The  Indians  and  the  whites  held  a  council  all  the  after 
noon,  when  General  Adams  started  for  White  River  to  see  the  soldiers, 
at  the  Utes'  request,  so  as  to  make  sure  that  there  would  be  no  more 
fighting.  In  the  evening  Mrs.  Price  came  for  me,  and  I  went  over  with 
her  to  Johnson's  camp.  We  staid  all  night  with  her,  and  in  the  morn 
ing  started  for  Uucoinpahgre.  We  had  to  ride  forty  miles  on  horseback 
to  reach  the  place  where  the  soldiers'  wagons  were.  These  wagons  con 
tained  canned  fruit  and  provisions  of  all  kinds. 

Q.  (By  Mr.  POEHLER.)  Was  General  Adams  with  you  then? — A. 
He  and  Count  Danhoff  had  gone  on  to  White  Eiver.  Upon  reaching 
the  wagons,  we  found  that  the  Uucompahgres  had  been  ahead  of  us  j 
that  they  had  divided  out  the  blankets,  eaten  up  the  canned  fruit,  par 
taken  of  a  bottle  of  whisky,  and  were  having  a  good  time  generally. 
Of  course  they  had  no  idea  that  we  could  ride  through  that  distance  in 
a  day,  and  we  much  surprised  them  when  we  came  in.  We  took  th& 
blankets  away  from  them  and  shared  of  course  in  what  they  had  not 
eaten.  The  next  morning  we  started  in  wagons 

By  Mr.  GUNTER  : 

Q.  Who  now  had  charge  of  you?— A.  Captain  Kline,  Mr.  Shermanr 
the  clerk,  now  agent  at  Uncompahgre,  and  Mr.  Sanders. 

Q.  They  were  along  with  him  when  General  Adams  found  you  ? — A. 
They  were  along  with  General  Adams  and  returned  with  u^s,  while  Gen 
eral  Adams  and  Count  Danhoff  went  on  to  White  River.  We  arrived 
at  Ouray's  house  in  the  afternoon,  after  traveling  three  days.  Ouray 
and  his  wife  did  everything  they  could  to  make  us  comfortable,  gave  us 
a  room  and  did  everything  they  could  for  us.  On  our  way  into  Los 
Pinos  we  had  seen  the  Indians  appearing  occasionally  on  the  hills,  and 
of  course  we  did  not  know  what  it  meant  until  we  arrived  at  Ouray's. 
Ouray  then  told  us  that  we  had  not  been  out  of  sight  of  his  men  since 
we  had  left  the  White  River  camp;  that  he  had  pickets  around  on  all 
the  mountains  during  the  night  while  we  staid  there,  and  that  he 
would  see  us  out  to  the  railroad. 

Q.  The  pickets  were  for  your  protection  ? — A.  Yes,  sir.  He  and  his 
wife  were  very  kind  to  us  indeed. 

Q.  I  wanted  to  make  some  inquiry  about  the  exact  length  of  time 
that  elapsed  between  the  tight  of  the  troops  with  the  Indians  and  the 
massacre  at  the  agency.  The  tight  took  place  a  little  before  the  other, 
did  it  not?  The  tight  commenced  about  eleven  o'clock  and  the  massa 
cre  began  about  one  o'clock? — A.  About  one  or  half  past  one  o'clock. 

Q.  Could  you  hear  the  musketry  firing  in  the  fight  at  the  agency  ? — 
A.  No,  sir.  The  distance  between  the  two  points  is  about  twenty-five 
miles.  Our  runner  came  down  just  previous  to  the  massacre  at  the- 


90  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

agency,  to  inform  Douglass  and  the  men  that  Jack's  men  and  the  sol 
diers  were  fighting.  Jack  had  gone  up  there  before  this  with  all  his 
men.  They  were  all  hidden  up  there  and  everything  was  arranged  for 
it. 

Q.  The  fight  actually  took  place  before  the  massacre  at  the  agency  f 
— A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Mr.  POEHLER  : 

Q.  I  merely  wish  to  ask  if  you  know  how  many  warriors  there 
were  in  both  of  the  camps — Jack's  and  Douglas's  ? — A.  I  presume  that 
of  fighting  men  there  were  150  to  175,  not  over  200,  as  there  were  not 
more  than  200  or  250  warriors  at  the  very  furthest  in  the  tribe  ;  there 
being  only  about  800  altogether,  counting  men,  women,  and  children. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  there  were  any  Indians  there  except  these 
Utes  or  White  Eiver  Indians  ? — A.  There  may  have  been  a  few,  perhaps 
half  a  dozen. 

By  Mr.  HASKELL  : 

Q.  Did  you,  at  the  White  River  Agency  or  on  your  trip  south,  or  at 
any  time  prior  to  your  release,  see  anything  of  any  strange  whites  ? — A. 
No,  sir. 

Q.  Or  in  the  camps? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  heard  of  none? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Did  Ouray,  when  you  met  him,  intimate  to  you  that  he  knew  this 
outbreak  was  going  to  occur  ? — A.  He  said  nothing  to  us  at  all  about 
the  outbreak. 

Q.  None  of  his  men  were  engaged  in  it  unless  they  may  have  been 
among  those  half  dozen  you  speak  of.  None  of  his  men  were  promi 
nent  in  it? — A.  i  think  not. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  they  had  any  communication  with  the  South 
ern  Utes? — A.  After  the  massacre  they  had  communication. 

Q.  But  before ? — A.  We  had  occasional  communication.  We  had 
rfiore  with  the  Uintah  Utes.  One  Unitah  TJte  came  to  camp  while  we  were 
in  camp  there. 

Q.  But  you  do  not  know  whether  there  was  any  communication  be 
tween  Uintah  Utes  and  the  Southern  Utes  previous  to  the  massacre? — 
A.  No,  sir  ;  I  only  know  that  the  Uncompahgre  Utes  visited  our  agency 
quite  often  and  they  made  a  great  deal  of  trouble.  Every  time  they  vis 
ited  there  they  would  gather  our  Indians  together  and  insist  upon  it  that 
this  thing  of  having  them  work  was  a  sort  of  whim  of  the  agent's ;  that  it 
was  he  who  wished  them  to  work,  and  it  was  not  the  wish  of  the  govern 
ment  that  they  should  work;  that  the  government  had  instructed  the 
agent  at  their  agency  not  to  have  them  work ;  that  it  was  against  the  reg 
ulations  of  the  government  to  have  them  work,  and  that  the  government 
did  not  with  them  to  work.  Whereupon-there  would  be  a  council  held 
for  two  or  three  days,  a  long  talk  would  follow,  and  Jack  would  state  his 
grievances,  that  the  government  did  not  wish  them  to  work.  During  all 
the  time  that  they  staid  there,  perhaps  for  one  or  two  months,  Jack  would 
induce  all  the  Indians  not  to  draw  rations.  It  was  something  he  did 
not  like.  He  did  not  like  anything  the  government  wanted  or  anything 
the  agent  wanted. 

Q.  At  the  time  your  father  was  agent  there,  were  the  usual  supplies 
of  annuity  goods  and  food  received  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  regularly  issued  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  In  any  of  these  councils,  did  you  ever  hear  the  subject  of  any 
treaty  stipulations  or  contracts  with  reference  to  the  lauds  brought  up 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  91 

as  a  grievance  among  these  Southern  or  White  River  Utes  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  That  was  discussed  ? — A.  They  discussed  it  when  Mr.  Stickney  and 
Mr.  McCaulay  were  up  there  for  the  purpose  of  obtaining  their  signa 
tures.  They  did  not  come  to  any  agreement,  but  those  gentlemen  prom 
ised  those  Utes  that  they  should  go  to  Washington. 

Q.  The  White  River  Utes  did  not  understand  that  they  had  completed 
any  trade  or  anything  like  that  ? — A.  No,  sir ;  they  were  to  go  to  Wash 
ington,  but,  when  they  were  ready  to  go,  they  did  not  go,  as  the  com 
missioners  refused  to  take  them  ;  which  made  them  very  angry.  They 
claimed  they  never  sold  any  land,  and  when  they  learned  that  the  Un- 
compahgre  Utes  could  not  get  their  pay  for  their  land,  it  rather  pleased 
them.  They  said  it  served  them  right.  And  as  for  goods,  they  had  an 
abundant  supply  of  everything. 

Q.  Then  while  the  fact  that  the  Uncompahgre  Utes  had  some  trouble 
with  their  lands,  that,  in  your  opinion,  had  nothing  to  do  with  the  W^hite 
River  outbreak  ;  they  were  rather  tickled  that  those  other  fellows  had 
been  caught  in  a  scrape f — A.  Yes;  they  were  tickled.  I  do  not  know 
of  anything  that  the  agent  ever  asked  permission  for  at  Washington 
or  requested  them  to  send  him  that  was  not  sent  on  immeeititely. 
Farms  and  houses  were  provided  for,  wagons  and  everything  of  the 
kind  forwarded. 

Q.  To  your  mind,  judging  from  the  evidence,  it  was  because  of  the 
policy  of  the  government,  in  its  effort  to  civilize  these  people  through 
the  medium  of  agriculture  and  the  resistance  of  the  Indians  to  the  en 
forcement  of  that  policy,  that  the  conflict  between  the  Indians  and  the 
government  arose? — A.  Yes,  sir;  that  was  it  exactly. 

Q.  In  your  opinion,  the  main  cause  of  the  outbreak  was  the  effort  of 
the  government,  through  its  agent,  on  the  one  hand,  to  induce  the  In 
dians  to  plow  the  lands,  to  learn  to  read,  and  to  become  civilized,  and,  on 
the  other  hand,  their  resistance  to  any  such  effort? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  so  far  as  concerns  any  allegation  of  harm  done  to  the  Indians 
in  the  withholding  of  supplies,  the  taking  away  of  their  property,  or  any 
thing  of  that  sort,  the  outbreak  was  entirely  unprovoked  on  their  part  ? 
— A.  Entirely.  They  had  no  reason  whatever  to  complain  of  any  treat 
ment  from  the  government  or  from  the  agent.  Before  wre  came  there 
they  had  not  had  their  full  supplies,  but  after  we  came,  there  was  an 
abundance  of  everything  if  they  would  take  it.  But  Jack,  for  weeks  at 
a  time,  would  refuse  to  draw  rations  and  would  not  permit  his  Indians 
to  draw  them.  Those  who  would  work  would  be  furnished  extra  rations ; 
be  paid  $15  a  month  and  given  other  inducements. 

By  Mr.  HOOKER  : 

Q.  At  what  time  did  your  father  go  to  these  Indians  'I — A.  In  May 
1878. 

Q.  Who  was  his  immediate  predecessor? — A.  Mr.  Danforth. 

Q.  What  is  the  extent  of  the  pasture  lauds  immediately  around  the 
agency?— A.  I  cannot  tell  you  that,  but  I  know  that  the  whole  country 
there  is  excellent  for  pasturage. 

Q.  I  did  not  hear  the  first  portion  of  your  evidence,  but  I  have  un 
derstood  from  other  members  of  the  committee  that  you  have  alluded 
to  the  fact  that  your  father  had  issued  an  order  setting  aside  a  strip  of 
land  for  cultivation,  and  that  an  employe  engaged  in  tilling  the  soil  on 
that  strip  was  set  upon  by  the  Indians  and  tired  upon  by  one  of  them. 
Have  you  made  such  allusion  ?— A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  that  the  first  outbreak  that  occurred  under  your  father's 


92  tlTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK, 

policy  in  carrying  out  the  views  of  the  Indian  commissioners  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir;  that  was  the  first. 

Q.  That  was  the  prime  cause,  was  it  not,  of  the  subsequent  massacre 
and  of  the  difficulty  between  the  Indians  and  the  troops  ? — A.  That  was 
the  principal  cause.  There  were  a  number  of  causes. 

Q.  Is  the  valley  there,  in  extent,  large  or  small  ? — A.  When  the  dig 
ging  of  the  ditch  at  the  agency  there  is  completed,  I  think  there  will  be 
3,000  acres  that  can  be  easily  cultivated  and  irrigated. 

Q.  In  the  valley  proper  f — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  The  land  which  it  was  proposed  to  have  broken  up  was  immedi 
ately  contiguous  to  the  agency  and  contiguous  to  the  buildings  of  the 
Indians  I — A.  Contiguous  to  only  one. 

Q.- Only  one  part  of  it? — A.  Yes,  sir.  But  you  will  bear  in  mind 
that  the  Indians  could  at  any  moment  move  all  that  they  had  to  move. 

Q.  Had  they  been  in  the  habit  of  using  this  laud  as  pasture  land  for 
any  length  of  time? — A.  They  had  been  in  the  habit  of  leaving  their 
horses  to  pasture  wherever  they  wanted  to  leave  them,  but  there  was 
plenty  of  grass  on  the  lands  there. 

Q.  Was  there  plenty  of  arable  laud  as  good  as  that  which  had  been 
selected  by  the  agent  ? — A.  No,  sir;  none  so  good. 

Q.  He  selected  the  piece  of  land  which  he  did  select  because  it  was 
good  for  that  purpose  I — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  And  the  Indians  objected  to  that  because  it  was  good,  arable  land, 
and  they  wanted  it  for  pasture  ? — A.  Yes. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  your  father  acted  in  that  matter  in  obedi 
ence  to  the  instructions  of  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs '? — A. 
The  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs  left  the  whole  matter,  as  to  what 
land  he  should  plow,  to  his  judgment.  They  told  him  to  do  anything 
that  was  possible  to  induce  the  Indians  to  farm.  This  piece  of  land  was 
better  adapted  for  that  purpose  than  any  other  land  in  that  immediate 
vicinity. 

Q.  Your  father  insisted  upon  converting  these  lands  into  arable  lauds 
and  diverting  them  from  use  as  pasture  lauds  ? — A.  He  did  not  insist 
upon  it.  The  employes  went  to  plowing  the  land. 

Q.  Did  the  Indians  agree  that  he  might  make  use  of  some  other  por- 

ton  of  the  laud  ?— A.  They  told  him  that  if  he   wanted  to  plow,  he 

could  go  some  distance  away  from  the  agency,  upon  a  piece  of  land 

tyhich  was  covered  with  sage  brush  and  grease- wood,  which  was  far  from 

water,  and  which  it  would  take  fully  three  months  to  grub  out. 

Q.  About  how  far  was  this  piece  of  land  from  the  agency  ? — A.  About 
half  a  mile. 

Q.  They  ag  reed,  then,  that  he  could  convert  a  piece  of  land  into  arable 
land  at  that  distance  from  the  agency  ? — A.  Yes. 

Q.  Was  this  person  of  whom  you  spoke  as  having  been  engaged  in 
plowing  the  laud  killed,  when  fired  upon  at  that  time? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  He  was  shot  at,  but  not  hit'?— A.  Yes,  sir.  He  was  killed,  after 
wards. 

Q.  He  was  one  of  the  employes,  and  was  subsequently  killed  ? — A. 
Yes,  sir. 

Q.  What  portion  of  the  land  was  it  that  your  father  was  persisting  in 
converting  into  arable  laud  ? — A.  He  wanted  to  plow  about  fifty  acres. 

Q.  Was  that  in  the  immediate  vicinity  of  the  agency  house  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir.  And  it  had  to  be  near  at  hand  in  order  that  we  might  protect  our 
crops,  as  without  sucli  protection  the  Indians  would  steal  everything 
we  could  raise. 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  93 

By  the  CHAIRMAN: 

Q.  These  fifty  acres,  I  understand,  were  in  addition  to  the  eighty 
acres  he  had  already  cultivated  ?— A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Mr.  HOOKER  : 

Q.  They  objected  to  his  putting  that  into  arable  land  ?— A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Did"  they  not  have  a  very  angry  controversy  with  your  father  in 
regard  to  this'land  ?— A.  They  had  several. 

Q.  Did  not  the  attack  upon  your  father  grow  out  of  that  controversy  ? 
— A.  There  were  several  controversies  about  it ;  but  Johnson,  the  In 
dian  who  made  the  attack,  was  not  present  when  any  of  them  occurred  ; 
and,  when  father  resumed  his  plowing,  Johnson  came  down  and.  at 
tacked  him.  .  * 

Q.  You  stated  a  moment  ago,  as  I  understood  you,  that  to  the  Indians 
who  were  disposed  to  woik,  your  father  paid  $15  a  month,  and  issued 
double  rations  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  You  stated  also  that  Jack,  for  a  time,  refused  to  draw  any  rations 
himself  or  to  let  his  men  draw  any  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Was  the  reason  of  his  refusal  to  draw  rations  or  receive  pay  be 
cause  he  was  dissatisfied  with  the  effort  on  the  part  of  your  father  to 
convert  this  arable  land  into  pasture  land,  or  was  it  simply  because  he 
would  not  work  ? — A.  No  ;  he  refused  because  he  was  opposed  to  every 
thing  the  government  would  do  or  say.  It  made  no  difference  to  him 
what  the  regulation  that  came  from  Washington  was,  whether  anything 
about  work  or  anything  about  the  rations,  he  opposed  it. 

Q.  Under  what  authority  did  your  father  pay  this  $15  a  mouth  and 
issue  double  rations  f  Did  an  order  to  that  effect  come  from  the  Inte 
rior  Department  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  As  you  were  upon  the  ground,  and  are  conversant  with  all  the 
facts,  I  will  ask  you  to  be  good  enough  to  state  whether,  in  your  opin 
ion,  the  prime  cause  of  the  difficulty  with  the  Ute  Indians  at  that  point 
was  not  the  fact  that  these  pasture  lauds  which  had  been  converted  into 
arable  lauds  were  to  be  put  in  cultivation  ?— A.  It  was  not  so  much  be 
cause  the  lands  were  to  be  put  in  cultivation  as  it  was  for  this  reason — 
that  the  Indians  could  see  far  enough  ahead  to  realize  that  they  would 
be  compelled  by  this  course  to  adopt  civilized  wrays.  Johnson,  after 
making  the  attack,  made  a  speech  to  the  Indians  who  gathered  around. 
I  could  understand  enough  of  what  he  said  to  tell  what  was  the  drift  of 
it.  It  was  to  the  effect  that  it'  the  agent  plowed  there  he  would  then 
want  the  Indians  to  work  the  lands;  that  he  then  wanted  their  children 
to  come  to  school,  and  if  their  children  came  to  school  there  would  be 
more  work  for  the  Indians  to  do ;  that  then  they  would  have  to  build 
houses ;  and  if  they  built  houses  and  went  to  work,  where,  he  asked, 
would  their  horses  be.  Every  Indian,  as  you  know,  has  twelve  or  fif 
teen  horses. 

Q.  How  many  horses  were  around  that  agency  ? — A.  I  suppose  there 
were  two  or  three  hundred  there. 

Q.  You  say  that  the  Indians  made  no  objection  to  cultivating  lands 
half  a  mile  distant  from  the  agency,  but  that  the  agent  would  not  culti 
vate  such  lands  because  they  were  uncleared  and  less  conveniently  lo 
cated  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

By  Mr.  HASKELL  : 

Q.  How  much  land  is  available  for  pasturage  purposes  around  that 
agency  ? — A.  Any  quantity  of  it. 

Q.  How  many  acres  were  comprised  in  the  piece  of  land  which  it  was 
proposed  to  take  for  plowing  ? — A.  Fifty. 


94  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

Q.  Where  did  the  Indians  propose  to  send  them  to  do  the  plowing — up 
among  the  sage  brush? — A.  Up  among  the  sage  brush  and  grease- wood . 

Q.  Upon  laud  easy  to  cultivate  or  hard  to  cultivate  ? — A.  Hard  to 
cultivate. 

Adjourned. 


WASHINGTON,  January  29,  1880. 

FREDERICK  W.  PITKIN  sworn  and  examined. 
By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  Please  state  your  residence  and  position. — Auswer.  My  res 
idence,  prior  to  my  election  as  governor,  was  at  the  town  of  Ouray,  in 
the  southern  corner  of  the  State  of  Colorado.  I  ana  now  governor  of 
the  State,  and  my  residence  during  my  term  of  office  is  at  Denver,  the 
capital. 

Q.  This  committee  have  in  charge  the  investigation  of  the  recent  Ute 
outbreak,  and  we  have  called  you  here  to  give  us  any  information  which 
^ou  may  have  on  that  subject,  which  you  will  please  give  us  in  your  own 
way — everything  connected  with  it  that  you  may  know. — A.  In  the 
mouth  of  May  last,  reports  reached  me  that  a  body  of  Indians,  under  the 
command  of  Antelope  and  Yomini  and  Bennett,  had  left  the  Indian 
reservation  and  gone  into  Middle  Park.  1  would  like  to  show  the  mem 
bers  of  the  committee  where  Middle  Park  is  on  the  map  with  reference 
to  the  location  of  certain  towns.  It  is  50  miles  east  of  the  nearest  point 
on  the  reservation,  and  by  the  ordinary  traveled  roads  it  is  about  100 
miles,  and  from  the  White  River  Agency  it  is  at  least  150  miles  by  the 
ordinary  traveled  route,  and  it  was  from  the  White  River  Agency  that 
these  Indians  came.  This  band  of  Antelope's  reached  Middle  Park  and 
began  at  once  to  order  out  the  settlers  from  the  park.  They  told  them, 
some  of  them,  that  they  would  give  them  one  sun,  which  means  one  day, 
and  others  that  they  would  give  them  two  suns,  which  would  be  two 
days,  to  leave ;  and  told  the  settlers  that  unless  they  left  they  would 
kill  them.  They  began  to  set  fire  to  the  forests,  and  to  kill  game  indis 
criminately.  They  were  at  that  time  150  miles  by  the  road  ordinarily 
traveled  from  the  agency,  and  100  miles  by  the  road  ordinarily  traveled 
from  the  nearest  point  on  the  reservation,  in  the  county  of  Grand,  and 
quite  near  the  center  of  the  State,  drawing  a  line  from  north  to  south. 

Q.  Did  they  lay  any  claim  to  this  territory  from  which  they  were  driv 
ing  the  settlers? — A.  I  do  not  know  what  claim  they  make  to  it.  It  is 
at  least  ten  or  twelve  years  since  that  country  was  ceded  to  the  govern 
ment  by  the  Indians,  and  it  has  been  settled  by  whites  for  ten  or  twelve 
or  perhaps  fifteen  years.  They  ordered  every  one  out  indiscriminately, 
as  I  understand,  all  white  settlers  out  of  the  park.  They  went  to  a  mine 
on  Red  ifirt  Gulch  and  ordered  the  miners  out  of  that  mine  ;  they  went 
to  a  mine  on  Ruby  Gulch  and  ordered  the  miners  out  of  that  mine.  The 
miners  had  lived  in  that  country  for  a  large  number  of  years,  and  they 
concluded  that  they  would  not  leave.  These  Indians  started  fires  then 
on  both  sides  of  the  gulch,  with  a  view  of  burning  the  miners  out,  and 
after  remaining  for  one  or  two  days  the  miners  concluded  that  they 
would  not  risk  their  lives  any  longer  and  abandoned  the  mines.  The 
names  of  some  of  these  miners  are  W.  McQueary,  Alonzo  Coffin,  Mr. 
Erhardt,  Mr.  Thompson,  and  Mr.  Miller  of  Hot  Sulphur  Springs,  who 
resided  there  at  that  time,  and  I  presume  are  there  now,  and  could  be 
called  as  witnesses  on  this  point  if  you  desired.  The  Indians  told  Mr. 
Frank  Byers,  who  has  been  for  many  years  a  resident  of  Hot  Sulphur 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  95 

Springs,  that  unless  the  people  left  there  they  would  kill  them.  They 
destroyed  a  very  large  number  of  antelope.  The  people  of  Colorado  are 
very  anxious  to  preserve  what  little  game  they  have  left,  and  they  have 
passed  laws  which  have  been  in  force  for  several  years  making  it  a  seri 
ous  offense  to  kill  antelope,  or  deer,  or  any  game  of  that  species  between 
the  1st  day  of  January  of  any  year  and  the  1st  day  of  September  ;  but 
they  killed  large  numbers  of  antelope.  Mr.  Byers  tells  me  that  he  has 
seen  twenty  antelope  killed  in  one  place  and  left  without  anything  being 
touched;  they  killed  them  without  even  taking  off  the  skins  or  saving 
any  part  of  the  game.  It  was  apparent  that  it  was  done  through  malice 
to  deprive  the  white  people  of  the  benefit  of  the  game.  About  the  time 
when  Antelope's  baud  entered  Middle  Park  another  baud  of  Ute  Indians 
under  Colorow,  entered  North  Park,  which  is  directly  north  of  Middle 
Park,  and  at  least  50  miles  from  the  nearest  point  on  the  reservation, 
and  over  100  miles  by  any  traveled  road  from  the  White  Eiver  Agency. 
These  Indians  in  the  North  Park,  under  Oolorow,  adopted  the  same 
course  of  intimidation  of  settlers  which  Antelope's  band  was  carrying 
out  in  the  Middle  Park.  They  set  fire  to  the  forests  and  burned  im 
mense  quantities  of  timber  around  that  park  ;  they  burned  off  the  grass 
nearly  altogether  from  the  park,  and  ordered  out  the  miners  and  ranch 
men,  and  threatened  to  kill  them  unless  they  left. 

Q.  Please  state,  at  this  point,  what  opportunities  you  have  had  of 
knowing  these  facts. — A.  I  will  do  that  before  I  leave  this  subject.  Mr. 
William  Thompson,  of  Hot  Sulphur  Springs,  who  was  then  stopping  in 
the  North  Park,  reports  that  the  Indians  would  stay  a  few  days  in  a 
place,  and  kill  all  the  game  they  could  in  that  locality;  then  they  would 
set  everything  on  fire  near  that  neighborhood,  and  move  to  some  other 
locality,  where  they  would  go  through  the  same  performance.  Mr.  John 
K.  Ashley,  a  United  States  surveyor,  was  sent  by  the  government  into- 
the  North  Park  with  eleven  other  persons,  making  a  party  of  twelve,  to 
carry  on  government  surveys.  He  reached  the  north  end  of  the  North 
Park,  and  had  been  there  but  a  short  time  when  the  settlers  began  ta 
stream  by  him  on  the  way  out  of  the  park.  They  all  told  the  same 
story,  that  the  Indians  had  come  to  them,  had  told  them  if  they  did  not 
leave  they  would  kill  them,  and  although  these  parties  that  went  by 
him  were  well  armed,  they  did  not  dare  to  remain,  for  fear  they  would 
be  killed.  He  informed  me  that  about  forty  well  armed  miners  and 
ranchmen  passed  him  on  the  road  where  he  was  making  a  survey,  with 
the  same  story.  There  are  other  roads,  and  how  many  went  out  by 
those  other  roads  I  have  no  means  of  knowing;  but  Mr.  Ashley  said 
that  the  mountains  were  on  fire  all  around  him,  and  the  grass  on  the 
prairies  was  on  fire.  He  was  unable  to  control  his  men,  and  they  went 
out  with  the  others. 

By  Mr.  WADDILL  : 

Q.  Could  you  tell  about  how  many  Indians  came  into  those  two  parks 
under  those  chiefs'?  How  many  came  to  North  Park? — A.  I  do  not 
know  the  number. 

Q.  Can  you  not  approximate  the  number  ? — A.  I  cannot  approximate 
the  number,  but  Mr.  Ashley  informed  me  that  this  number  of  miners 
and  ranchmen  that  passed  him  were  all  afraid  that  they  would  be  killed 
unless  they  left.  My  information,  which  I  have  just  given  the  commit 
tee,  is  derived  from  many  sources.  During  the  latter  part  of  May,  or 
early  in  June,  I  received  letters  from  some  of  the  settlers  informing  me 
that  the  Indians  were  at  that  time  in  the  Middle  Park.  Mr.  Byers,  the 
postmaster  of  Denver,  who  has  lived  for  a  long  time  at  Hot  Sulphur 
Springs,  and  is  interested  in  considerable  property  there,  was  constantly 


96  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

receiving  letters  from  that  locality  informing  him  of  the  outrages  that 
were  being  perpetrated  by  the  Indians  there,  and  he  frequently  brought 
those  letters  and  exhibited  them  to  me.  Parties  from  that  locality  also 
came  to  my  office,  either  alone  or  with  Mr.  Byers,  and  laid  this  state  of 
facts  before  me.  Some  time  in  June,  after  being  fully  satisfied  that  there 
could  be  no  question  that  these  Indians  were  burning  the  country  and 
destroying  the  game,  I  wrote  to  Agent  Meeker,  advising  him  of  the  facts 
and  requesting  that  he  should  at  once  institute  measures  to  get  the  In 
dians  back  on  their  reservation.  In  the  course  of  a  week  or  two  the 
reports  that  reached  me  were  very  much  more  alarming  than  those  I 
had  at  first  received,  and  I  wrote  him  a  second  letter,  detailing  what 
was  being  done  by  the  Indians,  and  repeating  my  request  that  he  would 
institute  proceedings  at  once  to  get  those  Indians  home.  Surveyor- 
General  Campbell  informed  me  that  his  surveyors  had  been  driven  out 
of  the  North  Park,  and  a  gentleman  whose  name  I  do  not  now  recall,  but 
who  was  brought  to  my  office  by  Mr.  Byers,  came  in  on  the  5th  of  July 
and  described  the  country  that  had  been  burned  over.  He  said  that 
the  whole  range  of  mountains  called  the  Gore  Range,  located  a  long  dis 
tance  from  the  reservation,  was  entirely  on  fire  and  nearly  burnt  over, 
and  that  those  fires  were  getting  beyond  the  control  of  the  people  ;  that 
the  damage  which  was  being  done  to  the  forests  and  the  game  of  the 
•State  was  so  enormous  that  it  could  hardly  be  estimated.  He  also  in 
formed  me  that  one  man  had  counted  in  the  space  of  a  mile  in  one  park 
over  180  dead  antelope  which  had  been  maliciously  destroyed  by  the 
Indians.  He  detailed  other  outrages  which  had  been  perpetrated  by 
them,  and  I  at  once  telegraphed  the  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs, 
advising  him  briefly  of  these  immense  forests  that  had  been  burned  by 
the  Indians,  and  the  intimidation  of  the  settlers,  and  requested  him  to 
have  some  troops  ordered  from  the  nearest  military  post  to  protect  the 
settlers.  That  was  on  the  5th  of  July.  On  the  7th  of  July  I  received 
the  following  telegram  from  E.  T.  Brooks,  Acting  Commissioner  : 

WASHINGTON,  July  7. 

Information  of  about  20th  ultimo  from  White  River  Agency  reports  Indians  all  pres 
ent  and  at  work.  Have  telegraphed  agent  to  ascertain  if  any  one  absent,  and,  if  so, 
to  compel  return  to  reservation  immediately,  calling  on  the  military  authorities  if 
necessary. 

E.  T.  BROOKS, 

Acting  Commissioner. 

That  dispatch  I  received  on  the  8th  of  July,  and  on  the  same  day, 
either  before  or  immediately  after,  I  received  the  following  letter  from 
Agent  Meeker : 

WHITE  RIVER  AGENCY,  July  2. 
Hon.  F.  W.  PITKIN, 

Governor  Colorado: 

SIR  :  Yours  in  regard  to  the  hostile  attitude  of  my  Utes  in  North  Park  is  received. 
There  is  no  sort  of  necessity  for  their  being  away  from  their  reservation,  for  I  have  on 
hand  700.000  pounds  of  flour,  while  if  they  went  to  hunt  there  is  a  vast  region  to  the 
south.  The  lack  of  a  store  at  this  agency  tends  to  draw  them  away,  but  there  can  be 
none  because  the  keeper  could  not  sell  ammunition.  But  it  seems  it  can  be  sold  any 
where  off  the  reservation,  and,  though  contrary  to  law,  nothing  is  done  to  stop  it,  notwith 
standing  I  have  reported  the  case  at  every  quarter  where  I  thought  anything  could  be  done.  I 
shall  have  Douglass  send  on  to  recall  his  band ;  the  rest  are  subject  to  nobody,  and  as 
the  commander  at  Fort  Steele  pays  no  kind  of  attention  to  my  repeated  requests  to  keep  the 
Indians  off  land  that  does  not  belong  to  them,  I  do  not  see  where  my  power  comes  in,  for, 
of  course,  I  have  no  jurisdiction  off  the  reservation. 

It  seems  to  me  that  so  long  as  the  Indians  are  permitted  to  go  off  the  reservation,  and 
-are permitted  to  buy  ammunition  and,  undoubtedly,  spirits,  great  obstacles  will  be  presented 
in  civilizing  them  and  in  establishing  any  kind  of  industrial  habits.  Not  much  is  to 


UTE   INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  97 

be  expected  from  him  at  best,  but  I  am  satisfied  if  be  can  not  be  restrained  by  force 
his  rambling  habits  will  remain  unchanged,  and  the  final  result  trill  be  an  infvitaWe  con 
flict  with  the  advancing  white  man.     I  wish  you  yourself  would  appeal  to  the  military ,  and  I 
hope  you  will  have  better  success  than  I  have  had. 
.Respectfully, 

N.  C.  MEEKER, 

Indian  Agent. 

On  the  receipt  of  that  letter  and  the  dispatch  from  Mr.  Brooks  I  re 
plied  to  Mr.  Brooks  and  telegraphed  him  the  substance  of  what  Agent 
Meeker  had  written  to  me  under  date  of  the  2d  of  July,  and  again  in- 
formed  him  of  the  immense  forests  that  were  burning,  and  repeated  my 
request  that  he  would  institute  measures  immediately,  I  stated  in  that 
dispatch  that  Mr.  Meeker  desired  troops  sent,  and  asked  me  to  use  my 
efforts  to  secure  troops  to  get  the  Indians  home.  Before  sending  my 
first  dispatch  to  Agent  Meeker  I  had  written  him  twice  and  received  no 
reply,  and  this  letter  which  I  hare  jnst  read  was  the  first  reply  which 
I  had  received  to  either  of  those  letters.  I  desire  to  state  here  before 
going  any  further,  that  among  the  parties  driven  out  of  the  North  Park, 
who  I  have  been  advised  are  entirely  reliable  men,  are  William  Swann, 
of  Cheyenne,  who  had  a  herd  of  cattle  and  got  out ;  Joseph  Forester,  of 
Corlett,  Colo. ;  George  Houston,  of  Corlett ;  and  Thomas  M.  Fisher, 
of  Cheyenne,  who  was  in  charge  of  a  mining  party  in  the  North  Park, 
and  was  driven  out  with  hu  entire  party.  In  addition  to  those  men 
that  passed  out  by  the  road  where  Mr.  Ashley,  the  surveyor,  was,  I  am 
informed  by  Mr.  Frank  Byers  that  he  saw,  at  Hot  Sulphur  Springs,  on 
their  way  out,  a  party  of  about  twenty  men  who  went  into  North  Park 
to  mine  and  came  out  through  South  Park,  they  also  having  been  driven 
out.  The  fires  were  burning  during  the  early  part  of  the  summer  in 
many  places,  wherever  the  Indians  wandered,  off  their  reservations  and 
near  their  reservations,  from  Wyoming  to  New  Mexico.  There  were 
immense  fires  in  the  counties  of  Ouray,  La  Plata,  and  San  Juan.  The 
extent  of  the  fires  in  San  Juan  County  was  so  serious  that,  when  the 
grand  jury  met  at  the  summer  term  of  court  (I  think  it  was  in  July), 
they  reported  to  the  court,  as  a  matter  that  required  attention  on  the 
part  of  the  authorities,  the  fact  that  the  Indians  had  been  burning  im 
mense  forests  in  that  county,  setting  fires  off  the  reservation  and  burn 
ing  up  large  tracts.  There  were  large  fires  also  in  Guunison  County, 
Chaff'ee  County,  and  in  parts  of  Summit  County,  which  I  have  been  ad 
vised  were  set  by  Indians.  I  was  informed  that  wherever  a  baud  of 
Indians  roamed  through  the  State,  off  the  line  of  the  reservation,  the 
fires  followed  them.  They  left  behind  wherever  they  went  scarcely  any 
thing  but  a  trail  of  fire.  Mr.  H.  A.  Terpening,  the  county  asssessor  of 
the  county  in  which  the  State  capital  is  located,  informed  me  thai  he 
was  passing  from  San  Miguel  to  the  town  of  Ouray  when  he  met  two 
Indians  on  the  trail.  About  five  minutes  after  passing  them  he  came 
to  where  two  fires  had  been  started  which  had  just  got  under  full  head 
way,  and  he  said  that  he  saw  those  fires  burn  a  very  large  forest.  He 
met  no  white  men,  no  parties  except  Indians,  within  a  long  distance  of 
that  place,  and  he  had  no  doubt  at  all  that  the  fires  had  been  set  by 
those  Indians  as  they  passed  along.  Large  fires  also  burned  at  various 
places  in  Eoutt  County  ;  but  Major  Thompson,  who  is  to  be  examined, 
is  entirely  familiar  with  that  country  and  can  describe  the  nature  and 
extent  of  the  fires  much  better  than  I  can.  Fires  were  also  burning  at 
Halm's  Peak,  near  the  northwestern  cornerof  the  county,  which  came 
near  destroying,  if  they  did  not  destroy,  considerable  mining  property, 
H.  Mis.  38 7 


98  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK, 

dams,  sluices,  and  things  of  that  kind.  There  has,  apparently,  been  an 
effort  and  a  determination  on  the  part  of  those  Indians  for  many  years 
past  to  drive  the  settlers  out  of  the  North  and  the  Middle  Parks  and 
that  region  of  country.  They  have  made  raids  in  former  years, 
although  I  think  they  have  never  burned  as  much  timber  in  former 
years  as  during  the  present  year.  They  have  never  pretended  to  remain 
on  their  reservation. 

Q.  Was  that  the  object  of  setting  fire  to  that  country,  to  drive  the 
settlers  out?— A.  I  think  there  were  two  objects.  One  object  was  to 
get  the  game  into  the  parks  in  order  that  they  might  destroy  the  game, 
and  the  other  to  destroy  the  timber;  as  they  know  that  the  timber  and 
the  game  are  very  highly  prized  by  the  white  people.  That  is  1113^  belief 
on  the  subject. 

Q.  You  think  both  objects  were  sought  through  malice! — A.  That  is 
my  idea. 

By  Mr.  DEERING  : 

Q.  I  notice  that  they  seein  to  have  concentrated  upon  those  parks  and 
in  that  portion  of  the  country.  Was  there  any  special  reason  tor  special 
malice  in  connection  with  that  country  or  the  settlers  there? — A.  Well, 
they  have  wanted  that  country,  as  I  have  understood,  for  the  past  ten 
years,  and  have  been  determined  to  regain  possession  of  it. 

By  Mr.  WADDILL  : 

Q.  Are  these  parks  counties,  or  simply  regions  of  country  ? — A.  They 
are  surrounded  by  mountains.  The  theory  of  them  is  that  they  were 
immense  lakes,  aiid  that  by  a  great  upheaval  the  whole  country  was 
thrown  up,  and  the  sides  of  the  lakes  became  mountain  ranges,  and  the 
bottoms  of  the  lakes  became  these  parks,  which  are  capable  of  produc 
ing  the  very  finest  kinds  of  grass. 

By  Mr.  GUKTEE: 

Q.  Are  those  parks  low  grounds  adapted  to  agriculture? — A.  A 
"  park  n  is  a  level  tract  of  ground,  or  perhaps  undulating  like  a  prairie, 
surrounded  by  high  mountains,  and  it  is  precisely  the  country  you  would 
expect  to  find  it  large  lakes,  to  a  great  extent,  were  thrown  up  with  the 
surrounding  country,  so  that  the  borders  of  the  lakes  would  be  mount 
ainous,  and  the  bottoms  would  be  these  parks.  There  is  a  good  deal  of 
timber  growing  even  in  the  parks,  but  the  most  of  the  timber  grows  on 
the  mountains  surrounding  them.  I  have  never  been  in  the  Middle 
Park  or  North  Park,  but  I  think  their  g<  neral  character  is  prairie-like 
agricultural  land,  interspersed  with  timber. 

By  Mr.  DEERING  : 

Q.  There  is  no  limit  to  those  parks,  so  far  as  surveys  are  concerned* 
nothing  but  the  mountain  borders? — A.  They  are  bounded  by  the  mount 
ains,  but  they  are  surveyed  like  other  tracts  of  government  lauds.  They 
are  part  of  the  public  domain,  and  are  thrown  open  for  entry  by  miners 
and  settlers  by  sections  and  quarter  sections  and  in  other  manners  ac 
cording  to  law. 

By  Mr.  WADDILL  : 
Q.  Sectionized  ? — A.  Sectionized. 

By  Mr.  DEERING  : 

Q.  Are  the  Indians,  or  were  they  at  that  time,  asserting  some  claim  to 
that  country  as  a  justification  of  their  action  ? — A.  I  think  that  for  some 
years  past  they  have  constantly  said  that  they  were  going  to  get  that 
country  back  ;  that  it  was  Ute  country,  or  something  of  that  kind. 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  99 

Senator  TELLF/R.  They  never  owned  it ;  it  was  Sioux  and  Arapahoe 
country  until  1805,  when  we  had  the  war  with  those  Indians  and  the 
Sioux  were  driven  out,  and  then  the  Utes  took  possession  ;  but  what 
ever  rights  they  had  were  ceded  to  us  in  these  treaties  that  were  made 
in  186S,  so  that  if  th^y  ever  had  any  right  they  have  parted  with  it. 

The  WITNESS.  This  Ute  Reservation  can  he  called  a  reservation  only 
in  the  sense  that  whites  are  not  permitted  to  go  on  it.  The  Indians  do 
not  stay  upon  the  reservation.  No  portion  of  the  tribe,  so  far  as  I  have 
heard,  pretend  to  remain  on  it  or  feel  under  any  obligation  to  stay  there. 
The  Indians  from  the  three  agencies  wander  oif  as  it  suits  their  pleas 
ure  ;  they  wander  through  every  county  of  Colorado;  they  are  gone 
sometimes  two  months,  and  sometimes  four  months,  and  sometimes  six: 
months,  leaving  their  old  people  and  their  children  on  the  reservation  j 
they  have  been  at  liberty  heretofore,  and  have  enjoyed  that  liberty  to 
go  wherever  they  pleased,  in  any  part  of  the  State,  hunting  in  counties 
where  there  is  game  and  wandering  through  counties  where  there  is  no 
game.  They  have  no  homes  on  the  reservation  in  the  sense  in  which 
white  people  have  homes.  At  the  Uneompahgre  Agency,  where  On  ray 
lives,  there  is  but  one  house  occupied  by  an  Indian,  and  that  is  the 
house  occupied  by  Ouray  himself,  which  was  built,  as  I  understand, 
either  by  government  or  Mexican  labor.  It  is  a  small  adobe  house.  The 
balance  of  the  Indians  live  in  what  they  term  teppes,  little  wigwams 
built  of  poles  resting  on  the  ground,  and  connected  at  top,  and  covered 
either  by  skins  or  white  cotton  sheeting  or  bushes  piled  up  to  keep  the  cold 
out.  They  take  them  down  in  the  morning  and  put  them  up  at  night  wher 
ever  they  happen  to  be,  and  wherever  his  teppe  is  is  the  home  of  the  In 
dian  for  the  time  being.  I  have  seeu  these  teppes  scattered  all  through 
the  southwestern  part  of  the  State,  even  near  Denver,  and  in  Fremont 
County.  Wherever  I  have  traveled  in  the  summer  1  have  seen  the  In 
dians  with  these  teppes  with  large  bands  of  ponies  and  with  large 
numbers  of  children.  They  have  a  habit,  especially  in  the  North  and 
Middle  Park,  whenever  they  travel  along,  of  turning  there  ponies  into 
meadows.  They  seem  to  have  no  idea  of  the  rights  of  white  people  to 
thei'r  grass,  and  complaints  have  beeu  made  ia  various  portions  of  the 
State,  but  especially  this  year,  in  the  Middle  Park,  of  their  turning  their 
ponies  into  the  meadows  before  haying,  destroying  the  grass  and  tear 
ing  down  the  fences  when  they  take  their  ponies  away.  I  was  informed 
at  the  Uncompahgre  or  Los  Pinos  Agency  that  an  agent  of  the  Interior 
Department  was  there  this  summer  to  induce  the  Indians  to  settle  down 
on  land,  taking  it  in  severalty  ;  that  he  urged  upon  them  the  fact  that 
thege  large  reservations  could  not  be  continued  a  .^ivat  while  longer  ; 
that  settlements  of  white  people  were  coming  in  so  fast  it  would  be  im 
possible  for  the  Utes  to  retain  their  large  reservations;  and  that  it  was 
best  for  them  to  take  lands  which  they  could  call  their  own,  build  hous  »s, 
and  live  like  white  people.  The  agent  there  informed  me  that  various 
Indians  made  objections.  The  conversation  between  this  department 
agent  and  the  Indians  lasted  through  several  hours,  and  finally  it  was 
brought  to  a  close  by  a  speech  from  Ouray,  who  said  that  his  tribe  en 
tertained  a  belief  that  no  persou  should  live  in  a  house  where  any  one 
had  died  ;  that  that  was  a  part  of  their  religion,  and  it  would  be  im 
possible  lor  them  to  build  houses,  because  when  the  first  death  occurred 
it  would  necessitate  the  destruction  of  the  house;  and  I  was  informed 
that  inasmuch  as  the  tiucvl  objection  by  the  principal  chief  was  based 
upon  religious  grounds,  the  agent  of  the  department  was  of  the  opinion 
that  it  would  be  useless  to  attempt  to  combat  this  religious  belief.  So 
they  build  no  homes  in  the  sense  in  which  white  people  build  homes> 


100  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

but  they  wander  about  with  their  teppes,  and  families,  an<l  ponies,  and 
either  on  or  off  the  reservation,  as  suits  their  pleasure.  1  am  aware 
that  these  statements  are  somewhat  in  conflict  with  the  ideas  geneially 
entertained  at  the  East,  and  with  the  permission  of  the  committee  I 
would  like  to  refer  to  some  official  documents  in  connection  with  the  sub 
jects  to  wh'ch  I  have  been  testifying.  I  will  read  first  an  extract  from 
the  report  of  Agent  Meeker  to  Commissioner  Hayt,  dated  July  7,  1879, 
as  follows : 

The  great  balk  of  the  Indians,  or  at  least  half  of  them,  went  over  to  the  valleys  of 
Snake  and  Bear  Rivers  last  fall  and  have  not  returned.  They  have  greatly  annoyed 
the  settlers  by  letting  their  horses  run  on  their  meadows  and  uplands,  and  by  burning 
t'leir  timber,  especially  valuable  in  this  almost  treeless  region.  About  two  mouths 
ago  many  of  them  who  remain*  d  her«j  during  the  winter  went  off  hunting,  and  I  have 
bad  reports  of  their  trespasses  in  Middle  Park  and  elsewhere,  though  I  positively  for 
bid  their  going.  An  employe",  H.  Dresser,  accompanied  by  Douglas,  the  chief,  has  now 
gone  to  Middle  Park  to  bring  them  back,  and  as  they  belong  to  Douglas's  band  they 
will  probably  come. 

Another  collection  of  several  bands,  acknowledging  no  chiefs,  is  in  North  Park, 
threatening  the  miners  and  ranchmen.  Whether  the  commandant  at  Fort  Steele  will 
pay  any  attention  to  my  request  to  drive  them  out  of  the  park  is  doubtful,  as  hitherto 
he'haspaid  no  regard  to  my  requests.  Among  these  Indians  in  North  Park  nre  the 
worst  ones  of  the  whole  tribe.  Some  are  well  known  as  horse-thieves,  and  they  in 
clude  the  "  Denver  Indians,"  all  bad  lots,  and  it  seems  to  me  inevitable  that  couilicts 
with  the  whites  will  result  sooner  or  later.  A  most  unfavorable  characteristic  of  these 
Indians  off  the  reservation  is  the  burning  of  timber  and  their  wanton  destruction  of 
game,  and  simply  to  get  the  skins.  Even  the  Indians  who  st:iy  near  the  agency  have 
uo  regard  for  timber,  and  during  the  last  six  months  not  less  than  50  acres  of  "choice 
timbered  groves  in  this  valley  have  been  fired  and  as  good  as  destroyed.  My  protests 
and  endeavors  have  no  effect,  for  even  small  boys,  with  a  match,  can  set  tire  to  dry 
brush  and  grass  on  the  edge  of  timber,  which,  in  a  short  time,  is  beyond  human  con 
trol.  This  lack  of  ordinary  economy,  this  total  disrespect  for  values  in  the  natural  re 
sources  and  wealth  of  the  country,  are  disheartening  to  contemplate. 

I  will  also  read  Agent  Meeker's  report  to  Commissioner  Hayt,  dated 
July  15,  1879,  as  follows  : 

WHITE  RIVER  AGENCY,  COLOKADO, 

July  15,  1879. 

SIR  :  Your  telegraph  message  of  the  7th  instant  was  received  on  llth,  lying  over  two 
days  at  Rawlins,  directing  me  to  cause  the  depredating  Utes  to  vacate  Middle  and 
North  Parks.  But  I  had  reported  to  you  previously,  and  had  sent,  about  5th  instant, 
a  trusty  employe,  taking  along  Douglas,  who  reached  Hot  Sulphur  Springs,  150 
miles,  in  four  and  a  half  days,  and  they  returned  yesterday,  after  an  absence  of  ten 
days/  The  settlers  all  along  the  route  were  rejoiced  at  the  effort  made,  and  few 
or  no  charges  were  made  for  entertainment.  The  Utes  ini mediately  vacated  Middle 
Park,  and  a  runner  was  sent  to  Middle  Park  and  Harris  Park,  and  I  understand  now 
that  park  has  also  been  vacated,  and  that  the  greater  part  or  the  Indians  are  now  on 
Bear  River,  near  the  trading  stores,  some  of  them  begging  food.  Mr.  Draper,  the  em 
ploye",  told  the  women  not  to  give  them  anything,  as  there  were  abundant  supplier  at 
the  agency;  but  they  did  give,  probably  through  fear. 

Solar  as  I  can  gather,  several  hundred  antelopes  were  killed  in  Middle  Park,  for  two 
Indians  had  each  about  fifty  skins,  and  of  course  they  could  not  use  the  meat.  They 
also  killed  ihree  bison,  which  may  be  called  a  mountain  buffalo.  A  few  years  ago  there 
were  some  two  dozen  of  these  animals  ia  the  park,  and  the  settlers  have  all  refrained 
from  shooting  them,  as  they  held  them  both  as  a  curiosity  and  an  attraction,  but  the 
Indians  have  killed  them  off  so  that  now  there  are  less  than  half  a  dozen.  At  the 
time  Mr.  Dreser  arrived  the  settlers  were  getting  ready  to  attack  the  Indians  and  drive 
them  out;  thus  bloodshed  has  been  avoided.  Mr.  Dreser  reports  that  fires  followed 
the  Indians  on  their  return,  about  100  miles,  and  within  30  miles  of  this  agency. 

In  many  parts  of  the  Bear  River  Valley,  and  all  the  way  up  to  its  head,  in  Egeria 
Park,  the  country  is  well  burned  over.  At  Hay  den,  where  reside  the  families  of  Smarts 
and  Thompson,  the  fires  were  so  near  the  houses  that  the  women,  whose  husbands  were 
away,  were  on  the  watch  two  days,  and  carried  their  household  goods  to  a  place  of 
safety.  The  grass  range  on  which  their  cows  and  cattle  fed  is  destroyed.  I  have  pre 
viously  reported  to  you  that  the  Indians  are  destroying  timber  everywhere;  last  win 
ter  something  like  100  acres  of  beautiful  cottonwood  groves  were  burned,  close  to  the 
agency.  Their  object  is  to  get  dry  wood  next  winter.  At  the  present  time,  the  timber 
on  the  mountains,  north  and  south,  is  burning ;  and  our  valley  is  filled  with  smoke. 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  101 

These  fires  are  built  to  drive  the  deer  to  one  place,  that  they  may  be  easily  killed,  and 
thereby  the  destruction  of  piue,  cedar,  and  aspen  is  immense,  while  the  fire  runs  in 
the  gr;!s?;  even  the  r;mge,  which  we  largely  depend  upon  for  winter  grazing  for  the 
cattle,  is  badly  burned  over,  and  unless  the  long  drought  of  two  months  or  more  is 
soon  broken  by  rain,  this  grass  cannot  be  restored. 

As  t>  ou  may  easily  suppose,  this  practice  of  the  Utes enrages  the  settlers,  and,  unless  it 
is  stopped,  bloody  vengeance  is  sure  to  be  taken.  I  am  doing  all  I  can  to  stop  these  fires, 
but  the  Indians  attach  DO  value  to  timber,  and  do  not  hesitate  to  set  any  forests  on  fire 
to  get  at  a  little  game.  The  habit  has  been  long  established,  and  they  cannot  conceive 
why  timber  is  more  useful  than  water  or  rocks. 

They  are  now  gradually  drawing  toward  the  agency,  so  as  to  be  on  hand  at  the 
yearly  distribution  of  annuity  goods;  after  that  they  will  depart,  and  roam  over  a 
country  as  large  as  New  England,  where  settlers  are  struggling  to  make  new  homes, 
and  the  iLdiuns  think  it  all  right,  because  they  are,  as  they  boast,  "  peaceable  In 
dians." 

Respectfullr, 

N.  C.  MEEKER, 

Indian  Agent. 

Hon.  E.  A.  HAYT, 

Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs,  Washington,  D.  C. 

I  read  also  extracts  from  a  letter  of  General  Pope  to  Colonel  Whipple, 
Assistant  Adjutant  General  to  General  Sheridan  in  Chicago,  dated  Sep 
tember  13,  1879,  as  follows  : 

The  letter  of  Indian  Agent  Meeker  has  been  copied  and  retained,  and  will  be  acted 
on  as  far  as  it  requires  action  and  the  means  at  my  command  admit. 

I  had  a  conversation  with  Mr.  Meeker  in  Colorado  last  month,  on  the  subject  of 
these  Indians,  and  I  only  regret  that  he  did  not  in  the  present  communication  relate 
all  the  facts  concerning  that  band  of  Utes  and  their  agency  and  conduct  which  he 
told  me. 

Such  a  relation  as  he  made  to  me  would  of  necessity  have  an  important  bearing  in 
determining  the  measure  which  ought  to  be  promptly  adopted  in  their  case. 

The  White  River  band  of  Utes  is  in  no  sense  different  from  the  other  bands  of  that 
nation.  They  are  worthless,  idle  vagabonds,  who  are  no  more  likely  to  earn  a  living 
where  they  are  by  manual  labor  than  by  teaching  metaphysics. 

As  to  the  depredations  of  these  Indians  away  from  their  reservations,  I  have  only  to 
say  that  no  Utes  in  Colorado  that  I  know  of  are  kept  on  their  reservations,  except 
when  they  choose  to  stay  there.  Indians  in  number  from  every  band  in  the  State  are 
perpetually  roaming  about,  annoying  lawful  settlers  and  burning  forests,  besides  kill 
ing  cattle  at  times  and  turning  their  horses  into  the  pastures  of  the  settlers  in  Middle 
Park  and  elsewhere. 

I  have  been  compelled  to  keep  a  cavalry  company  every  summer  scouting  in  such 
well-known  places  of  public  resort  as  the  South  .and  Middle  Parks,  as  a  sort  of  police 
against  these  wandering  Indians. 

It  is  a  great  injury  to  the  Indians,  to  the  people  of  Colorado,  and  to  the  government, 
every  day,  that  things  are  permitted  to  run  on  as  they  have  been  and  are  now. 

I  have  received  letters  from  several  of  the  settlers  in  that  region  who  have  been 
molested  by  individuals  of  the  White  River  baud,  and  who  have  taken  out  warrants 
against  the  iudivMJual  Indians  and  placed  them  in  the  bands  of  the  sheriff  for  that 
county  to  issue.  They  ask  me  for  troops  to  serve  as  a  posse  for  the  sheriff,  which,  under 
the  law,  I  am  unable  to  furnish. 

Upon  the  point  of  these  Indians  having  been  guilty  of  these  depreda 
tions  in  former  years,  L  would  like  to  read  an  extract  from  the  report  of 
Capt.  Charles  Parker,  of  the  ISTinth  United  States  Cavalry.  He  had 
been  sent  to  examine  into  the  conduct  of  these  Indians  at  the  White 
River  Agency,  and  the  condition  of  the  reserve.  The  report  is  dated 
September  6,  1877,  and  reads  as  follows: 

Settlements  within  fifty  miles  of  the  reserve  mentioned  in  the  accompanying  report 
occupy  a  great  deal  of  their  favorite  hunting-ground,  particularly  Bear  River.  They 
desire  it  for  summer  herding  and  hunting,  and  consider  all  settlers  upon  it  as  trespass 
ers. 

The  chiefs,  Colorado,  Jack,  and  Piob,  with  their  bands,  rove  about  among  the  settle- 
meLts,  and  are  frequently  impudent  and  threatening  to  all  those  they  dislike  who  re 
fuse  to  give  them  what  they  ask  for.  These  Indians  have  done  nothing  worse,  so  far, 
in  the  settlements  than  burn  up  the  grass  and  timber,  a  few  hay-stacks,  and  destroy 
the  game,  empty  cabks  in  the  time  inhibited  by  law,  and  generally  to  intimidate  all 


102  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

those  settlers  whom  they  dislike.  There  is  no  doubt  but  these  acts  retard  the  settle 
ment  of  the  country,  and  that  the  presence  of  troops  in  bummer  would  materially  facil 
itate  it.  The  people  are  all  anxious  to  have  a  military  post  established  near  them. 

Eoutt  County  has  some  of  the  finest  grazing  land  in  the  whole  State, 
and  it  has  one  or  two  fine  mineral  camps ;  but  the  annoyances  to  settlers 
have  been  so  great  in  former  years  that  there  are  now  only  a  few  set 
tlers  left  in  that  county.  At  the  election  in  October  of  last  year,  only 
ten  votes  were  polled  in  that  county,  but  the  number  was  diminished  to 
that  extent  on  account  of  the  peculiar  excitement  following  the  outbreak 
which  occurred  just  previous  to  that  time.  The  settlement  of  the  North 
Park  and  of  the  Middle  Park,  has  also  been  retarded,  and  those  parks 
have  been  almost  depopulated  from  the  constant  raids  which  these  In 
dians  have  been  making  for  many  years  past,  New  settlers  going  in 
who  are  unused  to  the  Indians  cannot  be  induced  to  stay  there  for  any 
consideration,  and  those  who  remain  are  only  a  class  of  frontier  men 
who  have  been  familiar  with  the  Indians  fora  long  time,  and  are  willing 
to  take  the  chances  on  their  lives.  If  it  were  not  for  the  depredations  of 
those  Indians  over  this  country,  so  remote  from  their  reservation,  there 
would  be  undoubtedly  very  fine  agricultural  and  grazing  settlements  in 
those  parks,  and  large  mining  operations  around  them. 

I  read  also  a  petition  addressed  to  General  Pope,  dated  August  30, 
1877,  as  follows : 

HOT  SULPHUR  SPRINGS,  COLO., 
MIDDLE  PARK,  GRAND  COUNTY, 

August  30,  1877. 

DEAR  GENERAL:  We,  the  undersigned,  citizens  of  Middle  Park,  Grand  County, 
Colorado,  would  respectfully  represent  to  you  that  we  are  living  on  the  frontier,  on  the 
confines  of  civilization,  as  *it  were,  miles  away  from  any  military  post,  and  without 
adequate  protection  from  the  roving  and  unprincipled  bauds  of  renegade  Ute  Indians 
which  monthly  visit  this  section  without  license  or  permit,  contrary,  we  are  informed, 
to  the  laws  in  this  case  made  and  provided  by  the  government. 

We  would  respectfully  represent  that  these  bands  of  renegade  Ute  Indians  properly 
belong  to  the  White  River  Indian  Agency,  in  Western  Colorado,  but  spend  more  than 
two-thirds  of  the  year  off  their  reservation  in  our  country,  purposely  slaughtering  our 
game  indiscriminately  and  driving  it  into  remote  districts  as  far  away  as  possible  from 
tne  white  settlements— slaughtering  this  game  at  all  seasons  on  the  white  man's  terri 
tory,  when  a  white  man  is  not  allowed  to  kill  a  pound  more  than  he  can  use  to  sustain 
life,  while  at  the  same  time  it  is  a  notorious  fact  that  game  exists  in  abundance  within 
the  limits  of  the  Ute  Indian  Reservation ;  and  yet  a  white  man  cannot  trap  or  hunt, 
or  even  cut  a  stick  of  wood  on  the  reservation  without  asking  some  petty  chief's  per 
mission  or  running  risk  of  being  scalped  and  murdered. 

We  would  respectfully  call  attention  to  the  fact  that  these  same  Utes  yearly  set  fire 
to  the  forests  in  this  park,  thereby  causing  immense  destruction  of  the  finest  pine 
timber  in  the  State,  which  is  of  incalculable  value  to  all,  and  should  be  preserved  ;  and 
these  fires  often  burn  up  hay-stacks  and  cabins;  and  sometimes,  in  the  owners'  absence 
the  Indians  burn  the  cabins  in  the  more  remote  parts  of  the  settlements  hereabout. 
They  repeatedly  threaten  to  kill  our  settlers  here  if  they  do  not  yo  out  over  the  range  and 
slay  out  of  Middle  Park,  and  frighten  tourists  and  others  who  peaceably  visit  this  sec 
tion  for  health  and  recreation,  retarding  by  their  presence  and  menaces,  the  settlement 
and  development  of  Northwestern  Colorado. 

In  consequence  of  the  inadequate  protection  at  present  afforded  us,  and  in  considera 
tion  of  the  foregoing  facts  herein  set  forth,  we,  the  undersigned,  citizens  of  Grand 
County.  Colorado,  respectfully  request  that,  if  it  is  your  pleasure  and  in  your  power, 
you  station  a  company  of  cavalry  at  Hot  Sulphur  Springs,  or  some  other  suitable  place 
in  M.ddle  Park,  permanently,  or  so  long  as  may  be  deemed  necessary,  believing  that 
trouble  will  surely  be  averted  thereby,  affording  protection  to  the  citizens  in  this 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  103 

region,  and  keeping  the  Indians  on  their  reservation  ;  and  your  petitioners  will  ever 

Pray>  &C'  JOHN  H.  STOKES, 

Representative  from  Grand  County. 
CALVIN  KINNEY. 
JAMES  WAGSTAFF, 
Postmaster  at  Hot  Sulphur  Springs. 
J.  G.  SHAEFFER. 
W.  S.  CHAMBERLIN, 

County  Clerk. 
T.  H.  JOHNSON,  Sheriff. 
JOHN  KINSEY,  Assessor. 
THOS.  J.  DRAIJ, 

County  Judge,  late  Captain  Fifth  Michigan  Cavalry. 
WILLIAM  N.  BROWN, 

County  Treasurer. 
MONROE  C.  WYT HE, 

Commissioner. 
WILLIAM  H.  GARISON. 
W.  C.  MEELEN, 

County  Commissioner. 
C.  LUKE  KINNEY. 
JAMES  O    KINNEY. 
F.  M.  BOURN. 
H.  BOOTH. 
CHAS.  F.  BIXBY. 
URBAN  BLICKLEY. 
M.  BESSEY. 
JOHN  WESTEMORE. 
JAMES  R.  MOSS. 
WM.  E.  WALTON, 

Steamboat  Springs. 
FRANK  A.  McQUEARY. 
GEOG.  E.  HUDSON. 
DAVID  BOCK. 
WILLIAM  REDMAN. 
DAVID  PORTER. 
DAVID  GARDNER. 
EDWARD  C.  HALTON. 
C.  W.  ROGER. 
WM.  E.  KINNEY. 
C.  A.  KING. 
THOS.  WALLACE. 
CHAS.  S.  WISE, 

Bear  River  Route  Country. 
WALTER  McQUEARY. 
H.  W.  SHILLY. 
W.  O.  BULL. 
General  JOHN  POPE,  U.  S.  A., 

Commanding  Department  Headquarters,  Leavenworlh,  Kane. 

These  are  men  of  known  standing  and  honesty  in  that  community* 
and  entitled  to  be  believed  in  any  statements  they  may  make  in  regard 
to  any  matters  within  their  knowledge. 

In  July  after  communicating  with  Washington  by  telegraph,  as  I 
think  I  have  heretofore  detailed,  I  went  into  the.  San  Juan  country  in 
Southwestern  Colorado  and  was  gone  a  few  weeks.  I  returned  in  Au 
gust,  and  shortly  after  my  return  to  Denver  I  was  visited  by  a  delega 
tion  of  the  White  River  band.  Captain  Jack  (who  was  afterwards  the 
leader  in  the  Thornburgh  fight),  Uucomgood,  Manechewap,  and  Sower- 
wick.  Captain  Jack  and  Sowerwick  are  two  of  the  chiefs  who  have 
been  recently  in  Washington.  All  these  belong  to  the  White  Lliver 
Agency.  Captain  Jack  was  the  spokesman  of  the  party.  They  remained 
in  my  office  the  first  day  between  one  and  two  hours.  There  were  present 
during  the  entire  interview,  Mr.  W.  N.  Byers,  the  postmaster  at  Denver 
Mr.  A.  J.  Woodbury,  one  of  the  editors  of  the  Denver  Times,  and  Mr. 


104  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

W.  B.  Vickers,  my  private  secretary.  There  were  a  large  number  of 
other  people  going  in  and  coming  out  and  present  at  part  of  the  inter 
view,  but  those  three  gentlemen  and  myvself  were  present  at  the  entire 
interview.  Jack  said  that  he  and  the  chiefs  come  to  Denver  to  secure 
my  aid  in  obtaining  the  removal  of  Agent  Meeker.  I  a^ked  him  for 
what  reasons  he  desired  Agent  Meeker  removed.  He  stated  that  the 
agent  had  a  school  at  the  reservation  and  was  trying  to  have  the  chil 
dren  go  to  school ;  he  said  they  did  not  want  their  children  to  be  educated  ; 
that  they  wanted  them  to  grow  up  and  hunt  as  they  had  done,  and  they 
did  not  want  any  school;  he  said  that  Agent  Meeker  was  killing  the 
beef  cattle  at  the  reservation.  He  wanted  him  to  buy  new  cattle 
and  let  the  Indians  have  the  herd  which  was  then  there.  "  I  asked  him 
if  the  herd  did  not  belong  to  the  government,  and  he  said  no,  it  be 
longed  to  the  Indians.  Captain  Jack  had  been  one  of  the  delegation  to 
visit  the  National  Capital  during  the  administration  of  President  John 
son,  and  he  (and,  I  think,  one  of  the  other  Indians)  wore  a  silver  medal 
with  a  medallion  of  President  Johnson  on  his  breast.  I  told  him  that  I 
understood  that  years  back,  and  I  believed  it  was  in  the  time  of  President 
Johnson,  the  government,  instead  of  buying  the  cattle  as  they  might  be 
needed,  in  lots,  advertising  for  cattle  to  be  furnished  from  time  to  time  to 
supply  the  Indians,  thought,  on  account  of  the  fine  grazing  laud  there  was 
there,  that  it  would  be  cheaper  to  invest  a  considerable  amount  of  money 
in  cattle,  and  buy  a  sufficiently  large  herd  to  have -the  agency  self  sus 
taining  as  far  as  meat  was  concerned.  He  made  no  direct  reply  to 
what  I  stated  to  be  the  fact,  no  more  than  to  repeat  that  those  were 
Indian  cattle  ;  that  Meeker  was  killing  the  cattle  to  feed  them  ;  that  he 
should  turn  them  over  to  the  Indians,  and  should  buy  the  cattle  as  they 
bought  them  at  other  agencies,  as  they  were  needed  from  time  to  time. 
I  a^ked  him  what  good  the  cattle  would  do  the  Indians,  and  of  what 
use  cattle  were  anyway,  if  they  were  not  eaten,  and  he  said  that  the 
cattle  belonged  to  them  and  they  wanted  them.  He  said  Agent  Meeker 
was  trying  to  get  them  all  to  work,  and  wanted  to  educate  them  and 
compel  them  to  work ;  he  said  he  was  plowing  around  and  wanted  to 
have  them  help  to  put  in  crops  and  go  to  work  like  other  people.  He 
said,  "Indian  no  work;  Indian  hunt;  Indian  no  want  to  work,"  and 
he  went  on  to  state  in  various  phraseology,  in  his  broken  English,  that 
the  Indians  wanted  to  hunt  as  they  had  always  hunted;  that  they  wanted 
their  young  men  to  hunt;  that  they  did  not  want  to  work,  and  would 
not  work.  He  pointed  to  me  and  said,  "  You  no  work";  he  pointed  to- 
Mr.  Byers  and  said,  "  He  no  work,"  and  he  straightened  hiicself  up  and 
put  his  hand  on  his  breast  and  said,  "  I  no  work."  I  said  to  him,  u  Per 
haps  you  would  be  willing  to  be  a  governor  or  a  postmaster,  wouldn't 
you  1 "  And  he  said  u  Yes."  I  told  him  that  I  understood  there  were 
very  rich  mines  on  the  reservation  in  the  Elk  Mountains  and  in  that 
neighborhood.  A  part  of  the  Elk  Mountains  are  in  the  reservation  ;  a, 
part  runs  off  the  reservation,  and  in  that  part  there  are  a  large  number 
of  miners.  I  asked  him  if  the  Indians  would  not  work  the  mines,  dig 
for  gold,  get  out  money  and  get  rich  as  white  men  did  :  and  he  said, 
"No;  we  will  not  mine  at  all."  I  asked  him  if  they  did  not  want  to- 
have  homes  like  white  people,  and  have  their  families  together  in  their 
homes,  and  he  said  no,  they  wanted  to  live  as  they  had  always  lived. 
Then  I  took  him  up  to  a  large  map  in  ray  office  where  the  reservation 
is  defined,  and  traced  out  where  Grand  Kiver  was  and  where  the  Gun- 
nisou  Kiver  was,  pointed  out  the  White  Kiver  Agency  at  the  north  and 
the  Los  Pinos  Agency  at  the  south,  and  pointed  out  the  Elk  Mountains 
and  asked  if  the  Indians  would  not  be  willing,  inasmuch  as  they  were 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  105 

unwilling  to  take  the  ore  out  of  the  mines  themselves,  to  let  the  white 
men  go  over  there  and  dig  the  ore  out.  I  said,  "  The  more  silver  there 
is  in  circulation  the  more  the  Indians  will  get  as  well  as  the  white  rnen.. 
If  the  white  men  are  rich,  Indians  will  get  more  money.7'  He  talked 
with  the  chiefs  for  some  time  and  finally  gave  no  answer  at  all  or  an 
evasive  answer.  I  think  the  final  answer  he  gave  was  that  they  had 
no  right  to  consent  to  white  people  going  in  there.  While  speaking  oa 
the  subject  of  work,  he  said  that  Indians  would  not  work,  but  squaws- 
would  work  a  little ;  that  he  considered  it  proper  for  the  squaws  to  work 
a  little,  but  that  the  Indians  themselves  should  not  work  at  all.  Dur 
ing  that  conversation  I  asked  him  if  Father  Meeker  did  not  give  them 
their  rations  regularly.  He  said  that  he  had  no  complaint  to  make  on 
the  ground  of  Mr.  Meeker  withholding  rations  from  them ;  the  only 
complaints  he  made  against  Mr.  Meeker  were  in  relation  to  schools,  to 
the  herd  of  cattle,  to  plowing  land,  and  to  his  efforts  to  induce  the  In 
dians  to  labor.  There  was  no  complaint  made  that  there  was  a  white 
man  trespassing  upon  the  reservation.  There  was  no  allusion  made  by 
him  to  the  fact  that  any  white  man  was  on  the  reservation,  nor  aujr 
claim  made  that  a  white  man  had  been  on  the  reservation  in  violation 
of  the  terms  of  the  treaty. 

By  Mr.  DEERING  : 

Q.  There  was  no  complaint  made  of  the  miners  f — A.  There  was  no- 
complaint  made  that  a  miner  had  gone  on  the  reservation.  The  fact 
was  talked  over  that  the  miners  were  on  the  line  of  the  reservation  in» 
the  Elk  Mountains,  and  how  near  they  were,  and  I  told  him  that  there 
were  rich  mineral  lands  there,  and  the  miners  could  not  be  kept  ofF 
long,  and  asked  bis  consent  to  have  them  go  in,  which  consent  was  not 
given.  I  told  him  about  the  Indians  burning  this  large  amount  of  tim 
ber  through  the  North  Park,  and  in  the  Middle  Park,  and  in  Routt 
County,  but  I  got  no  satisfaction  out  of  him.  It  is  a  peculiarity  of 
Indians  that  if  they  have  done  anything  wrong,  and  you  talk  with  them 
about  it,  they  will  not  talk,  and  he  would  not  talk  with  me  on  the  sub 
ject  at  all.  The  most  that  I  remember  that  he  said  was  "Bennett  burn 
some  timber,"  but  he  gave  no  explanation.  I  told  him  how  much  the 
white  people  thought  of  the  timber  and  the  game,  and  how  much  they 
desired  to  preserve  it,  and  that  it  was  very  wrong  for  the  Indians  to> 
be  destroying  the  timber  and  the  game  ;  but  you  can't  talk  with  an  In 
dian  unless  he  wants  to  talk,  and  during  this  interview  sometimes  they 
would  sit  still  for  five  minutes  and  not  say  a  word.  It  is  impossible  to 
sustain  a  continuous  conversation  with  an  Indian.  If  they  feel  like 
talking  they  will  talk,  and  if  they  do  not  they  sit  still  for  five  or  tea 
minutes,  and  then  resume  the  conversation  by  an  abrupt  question. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Did  they  claim  the  right  to  go  off  the  reservation  ! — A.  I  do  not 
think  he  said  anything  about  their  rights  in  the  premises.  As  the  num 
ber  of  witnesses  you  are  calling  is  so  limited,  I  would  like  to  read  the 
account  which  Mr.  Woodbury,  who  was  present  during  the  whole  con 
versation,  wrote  for  his  paper,  the  Denver  Times.  It  is  what  he  would 
swear  to  if  he  were  here,  and  it  may  give  the  committee  an  idea  of  his 
impressions. 

FATHER  MEEKER  AND  THE  INDIANS. 

A  large  number  of  papers  in  the  country,  notably  those  published  at  a  distance  from 
the  scene  of  the  late  White  River  tragedy,  and  many  people  within  the  range  of  such 
papers,  continue  to  reiterate,  and  possibly  believe,  that  Mr.  Meeker  had  been  guilty  oF 


106  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

monstrous  conduct,  which  exasperated  the  Indians  to  murder  him,  and  that  they  were 
also  goaded  on  by  the  encroachments  of  the  whites  upon  the  reservation. 

The  Times  has  frequently  called  attention  to  the  visit  of  the  four  White  River  Ute 
chiefs  to  Governor  Pitkin  last  August,  on  which  occasion  they  poured  into  his  ears  all 
their  grievances,  and  made  known  their  wants,  the  wants  exceeding  the  grievances  by 
a  large  majority.  This  interview  occurred  on  the  14th  of  August,  and  lasted  about  two 
hours,  and  was  repeated  two  days  later,  but  no  new  matters  were  suggested  at  the 
second  session,  the  Indians  having  told  the  whole  story  at  the  ft  st.  Upon  each  occa 
sion  a  representative  of  the  Times  was  present  taking  notes,  and  the  points  are  repro 
duced,  in  the  hope  that  the  country  will  at  length  recognize  the  fact  that  Mr.  Meeker 
had  not  treated  the  Indians  unkindly,  nor  had  our  people  encroached  upon  the  reser 
vation. 

The  four  Indians  consisted  of  Ute  Jack,  who  is  suoposed  to  have  been  the  leader  in 
the  battle  of  Milk  Creek ;  Sow-er-wick,  who  won  dis'inction  as  an  unmitigated  liar 
by  his  testimony  before  the  peace  commission  at  Los  Pinos;  Man-e-che-wap,  and  Uu- 
<5urn-g(iod.  Jack  was  the  leader  of  the  party,  and,  being  able  to  talk  English,  was  the 
speech  maker.  The  utterances  of  the  others  consisted  of  a  series  of  gutteral  grunts. 
The  Indians  requested  that  Governor  Pitkin  should  write  to  Washington  and  procure 
the  removal  of  Agent  Meeker,  whose  offense  consisted  in  plowing  the  soil  and  establish 
ing  a  school,  stating  that  they  did  not  want  their  children  taught  reading  and  writing, 
but  wanted  them  to  hunt.  Having  disposed  of  this,  which  concluded  their  list  of 
grievances,  they  made  known  their  wants. 

They  wanted  the  government  to  give  them  oxen,  wagons,  and  horses — "  not  little 
faors  s*  but  great  big  horses."  They  also  wanted  the  cattle  from  which  their  beef  was 
supplied  turned  over  to  them,  and  beef  bought  for  immediate  use.  The  ocr-asion  of 
this  deep-felt  want  was  the  fact  that  Mr.  Meeker,  endeavoring  to  carry  out  the  wishes 
of  the  government  and  make  the  agency  as  nearly  self-sustaining  as  possible,  utilized 
the  fine  grazing  lauds  in  the  immediate  vicinity  of  the  agency,  and  the  product  of  the 
cattle  was  the  source  of  the  meat  supply.  The  Indians,  however,  wanted  these  cattle 
given  to  them,  and  meat  purchased  for  their  individual  consumption. 

The  governor  endeavored  to  gain  their  consent  for  white  men  to  prospect  in  the  Elk 
Mountains,  and  if  gold  or  silver  should  be  found  that  it  might  be  mined,  but  they  were 
obstinate.  He  next  inquired  if  they  would  dig  gold  themselves  or  cultivate  their  farms, 
to  which  they  returned  an  emphatic  NO,  and  appeared  disgusted  that  such  a  question 
should  be  asked  them,  but  Jack  observed  dryly  that  he  was  willing  to  be  a  governor. 

No  complaint  whatever  was  made  about  prospectors,  miners,  hunters,  or  other  in 
fringement  of  reservation  rights.  Had  there  been  anything  to  complain  of  in  this  re 
gard  it  would  have  beau  heard  from.  With  their  wants  a  ad  complaints  all  before  us, 
there  is  no  reason  whatever  for  the  assumption  that  Mr.  Meeker  had  treated  them 
harshly  or  even  unkindly  or  that  Coloradans  had  entered  upon  the  reservation. 
The  only  objections  raised  against  Mr.  Meeker  were  on  account  of  his  plow  and  his 
school. 

Referring  to  this  extract  remiuds  me  that  the  Indians  desired  three 
wagons  purchased  ;  they  wanted  Mr.  Meeker  to  purchase  them  so  that 
they  could  ride ;  they  did  not  propose,  as  I  understood,  to  use  the  wag 
ons  for  purposes  of  teaming,  or  anything  of  that  kind,  but  they  wanted 
them  and  some  large  horses  that  they  could  drive  to  them,  and  they 
complained  that  Mr.  Meeker  had  promised  to  get  them  those  wagons 
previous  to  that,  but  had  not  kept  his  word.  When  the  Indians  left 
Denver,  after  this  interview  with  me,  they  separated ;  two  went  ahead 
of  the  other  two.  Ca.pt.  Jack  and  Sowerwick,  as  I  understand,  went 
about  a  week  later  than  the  other  Indians.  They  went  home  by  way  of 
the  Middle  Park.  When  they  reached  Hot  Sulphur  Springs,  Jack  had 
quite  a  conversation  with  Mr.  Frank  Byers,  to  whom  1  have  previously 
referred.  And  Mr.  Byers  informs  me  that  Jack  told  him  about  the  in 
terview  at  Denver,  and  was  very  angry  at  me  because  I  would  not  as 
sent  to  his  proposals  to  get  Father  Meeker  removed  ;  and  he  said  to  Mr. 
Byers  that  when  he  got  beyond  the  soldiers  (referring  to  Dodge's  com 
mand,  which  had  left  Garland  some  months  before  and  were  skirting  up 
on  the  eastern  line  of  the  reservation  on  its  way  to  White  River  Agency) 
thtt  Ut°s  would  set  the  whole  country  on  tire.  Mr.  Byers  informed  me 
in  Denver  that  he  was  willing  to  come  to  Washington  and  testify  to 
this  fact,  if  desired.  Jack  went  on  after  leaving  Hot  Sulphur  Springs, 
and  passed  the  soldiers,  and  started  over  the  mountains  j  and  after  he 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  107 

reached  the  summit,  it  is  believed  that  be  began  to  start  fires.  I  will 
read  a  letter  from  Mr.  William  Heatberly  to  me,  as  Mr.  Byers  informed 
me  that  Mr.  Heatherly  was  a  witness  to  Jack's  setting  these  fires.  The 
letter  is  as  follows  : 

MIDDLE  PARK  COLO., 

January  L6,  irtSO. 

Hon.  F.  W.  PITKIN: 

Yours  of  the  6th  is  at  hand.  Have  taken  the  first  opportunity  to  answer  in  regard 
to  the  Indians  setting  fire.  I  was  carrying  mail  about  the  last  of  July  or  first  of  Au 
gust.  Captain  Jack  went  over  the  Gora  Range  ahead  of  me.  When  I  got  to  the  foot 
of  the  range  I  found  my  corral  on  fire  ;  also  the  country  around  it.  I  rode  on  and  over 
took  Captain  Jack  and  another  Ute.  I  accused  them  of  setting  the  fires.  They  didn't 
give  me  any  satisfaction  about  it.  I  am  sure  that  it  was  them,  as  there  was  no  white 
men  in  that  part  of  the  country.  Antelope  and  hie*  hand  were  camped  on  the  Muddy  at 
the  same  time,  and  the  head  of  the  Muddy  above  them  was  also  afire.  These  fires 
were  in  the  western  part  of  Grande  County  and  eastern  part  of  Routt  County.  This  is 
all  the  information  that  I  can  give. 
Yours,  truly, 

WM.  HEATHERLY. 

Some  time  in  July  two  Indians,  who  were  identified,  one  as  Bennett 
and  the  other  as  Chinaman,  or  Glass  Eye,  were  discovered  in  the  act  of 
setting  fire  to  the  houses  of  Major  Thompson  and  Mr.  A.  H.  Smart,  on 
Bear  Kiver,  thirty  or  forty  miles  away  from  the  reservation.  A  warrant 
was  sworn  out  before  Judge  William  E.  Beck,  then  district  judge,  and 
now  judge  of  the  supreme  court,  for  the  arrest  of  those  two  Indians. 
The  warrant  was  issued  by  Judge  Beck,  and  placed  in  the  hands  of  the 
sheriff  of  Eoutt  County  for  the  two  Indians  that  were  accused  of  the  act 
of  settiug'fire  to  the  houses.  The  sheriff  of  Eoutt  County  followed  the 
Indians  on  the  reservation,  and  went  to  the  agency  and  demanded  of 
Mr.  Meeker  that  the  Indians  should  be  surrendered.  As  the  crime  was 
committed  off  the  reservation,  and  no  doubt  was  entertained  by  the 
judge  that  the  State  courts  had  jurisdiction  over  the  offense,  Mr. 
Meeker  applied  to  Douglas,  and  Douglas  refused  to  surrender  the  two 
Indians,  and  asserted  that  the  State  officers  had  no  authoiity  to  come 
on  the  reservation  to  execute  processes.  The  sheriff  had  a  very  small 
posse — a  few  men  only,  and  he  returned  to  the  county-seat  of  Routt 
County.  The  matter  was  brought  to  my  notice  officially,  and  I  reported 
the  facts  to  General  Pope.  No  steps  have  been  taken,  which  I  know  of, 
lor  the  surrender  of  the  Indians  to  the  State  authorities,  but  General 
Pope,  as  I  remember  the  correspondence,  wrote,  in  reply  to  my  letter  to 
him,  stating  that  he  would  have  companies  detailed  for  the  arrest  of  the 
parties  ;  and  I  see  that  Mr.  Hayt,  in  his  correspondence,  has  somewhere 
directed  that  the  parties  shall  be  surrendered  to  the  sheriff  through  the 
aid  of  the  agent  and  of  the  troops,  but  they  have  not  been  surrendered 
up  to  the  present  time. 

On  the  16th  of  September  I  received  the  following  letter  from  Mr. 
Meeker : 

UNITED  STATES  INDIAN  SERVICE, 

WHITE  RIVER  AGENCY,  COLORADO, 

September  10,  1879. 

SIR  :  We  have  plowed  eighty  acres,  and  the  Indians  object  to  any  more  being  done, 
and  to  any  more  fencing.  We  shall  stop  plowing.  One  of  the  plowmen  was  shot  at 
last  week.  On  Monday  I  was  assaulted  in  my  own  house,  while  my  wife  was  present, 
by  a  leading  chief  named  Johnson,  and  forced  out  doors  and  considerably  injured,  as 
I  was  in  a  crippled  condition,  having  previously  met  with  an  accident,  a  wagon  fall 
ing  over  on  me.  The  employes  came  to  my  resc.ue.  I  had  built  this  Johnson  a  house, 
given  him  a  wagon  and  harness,  and  fed  him  at  my  table  many,  many  times.  The 


108  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

trouble  is,  he  has  150  horses,  and  wants  the  land  for  pasturage,  although  the  agency 
was  moved  that  this  same  land  might  be  used,  and  the  agency  buildings  are  on  it,  I 
have  had  two  days'  council  with  the  chiefs  and  headmeu  of  the  tribe,  who  concluded, 
after  a  sort  of  a  way,  that  I  might  plow,  but  they  will  do  nothing  10  permit  me  to, 
and  they  laugh  at  my  being  forced  out  of  my  house. 

I  have  no  confidence  in  any  of  them,  and  I  feel  that  none  of  the  white  people  are 
safe.  I  know  they  are  not  if  we  go  on  to  perform  work  directed  by  Commissioner  of 
Indian  Affairs.  Here  are  my  wife  and  daughter  in  this  condition. 

Confer  with  General  Pope,  Coaimissiouer,  and  Senator  Teller.  At  least  100  soldiers 
ought  to  come  hither  to  protect  us,  and  to  keep  the  Utes  on  their  reservation — should 
be  more. 

Don't  let  this  application  get  in  the  papers,  for  I  know  the  Indians  will  hear  of  it  in 
a  few  days.     Of  course,  what  the  ludiaus  have  done  is  a  matter  of  news. 
Truly, 

N.  C.  MEEKER, 

Indian  Agent. 
Governor  PITKIN, 

Denver,  Colo. 

I  received  that  letter  cm  the  ICth  ot  September,  and  I  immediately 
mailed  it  to  General  Pope,  and  at  the  same  time  I  mailed  him  a  letter 
from  Mr.  Donaldson,  superintendent  of  the  Hahn's  Peak  Mining  Com 
pany.  This  letter  was  written  to  Major  Thompson,  the  special  agent  of 
the  Land  Office  for  the  protection  of  timber,  and  he  handed  it  to  me, 
and  I  mailed  it  to  General  Pope. 

The  letter  is  as  follows  : 

INTERNATIONAL  CAMP,  HAHN'S  PEAK, 

Houtt  County,  Colorado,  September  10,  1879. 

DEAR  SIR:  Your  favor  of  September  6  is  received.  The  forest  fire  that  began  near 
Sand  Mountain  early  in  May  last  has  been  burning  ever  since,  and  has  Dually  culmi 
nated,  after  sweeping  all  over  that  section  of  country,  in  a  grand  attack  on  our  mining 
property  on  String  Ridge,  sweeping  all  before  it,  and  causing  us  very  serious  expense 
to  keep  it  out  of  this  camp.  Besides,  it  is  now  sweeping  everything  before  it  along 
the  line  of  our  17-mile  ditch,  on  which  we  have  several  miles  of  fiuming.  The  fire  is 
so  hot  ard  the  smoke  is  so  dense  that  we  cannot  reach  many  of  our  flumes  to  know  at 
present  how  many  of  them  are  destroyed.  If  any  are  left  it  will  be  nothing  short  of  a 
miracle, 

Thousands  of  acres  have  been  burned  over,  and  who  can  say  where  it  will  stop? 
Our  saw-mill  and  timber,  I  think  may  go,  unless  we  get  rain  or  snow  within  the  next 
three  days.  We  keep  men  night  and  day  battling  it  where  we  can, but  mau  is  almost 
powerless  against  such  a  destructive  element  when  once  set  in  motion. 

Frank  Hinman  asked  the  Utes,  when  he  was  on  Snake  River,  why  they  set  the  tim 
ber  on  fire  in  our  section,  and  they  replied,  "In  order  that  their  ponies  could  travel. 
Now  too  much  timber."  Jim  Baker,  the  scout,  who  lives  on  Snake  River,  was  out  with 
a  surveying  party,  and  says  the  Utes  started  a  fire  in  the  timber  in  two  different  places, 
not  far  from  their  camp.  I  am  not  acquainted  with  any  of  the  Utes ;  and  of  course 
they  will  not  converse  with  a  stranger  ;  but  I  do  know  they  were  in  onr  vicinity  when 
these  fires  were  started  in  the  spring,  and  there  had  been'  no  hunters  around  or  we 
should  have  known  it,  because  the  mining  camps  are  their  market  for  meat. 

About  the  quartity  of  timber  and  grazing  land  burned  over,  I  cannot  give  it  in 
acres,  but  it  is  immense.    It  can  only  be  measured  by  miles,  and  at  this  date  it  is  grow 
ing  more  fierce  everyday.    Nothing  can  now  stop  it  but  a  storm  of  rain  or  snow. 
Very  respectfully,  yours, 

J.  B.  DONALDSON, 

Superintendent. 

JAMES  B.  THOMPSON, 

Special  Agent,  General  Land-Office. 

I  will  also  read  the  following  letter  from  Mr.  Meeker,  dated  Septem 
ber  19,  1879: 

ANOTHER  LETTER  FROM   THE   AGENCY. 

WHJKTK  RIVER  AGENCY, 

September  19, 1879. 
Hon.  F.  W.  PIT  KIN,  Governor  : 

DEAR  SIR:  Yours  received.  I  have  a  dispatch  from  the  Indian  Commissioner  giv 
ing  directions  as  to  course  to  pursue  when  troops  arrive,  viz,  arrest  the  ringleaders 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  109 

and  bold  them  until  further  orders.  I  think  it  high  time  these  Indians  should  be 
taught  to  behave  themselves  equally  with  white  people,  and  I  might  as  well  try  them 
on  at  anybody  else.  Things  are  quiet  because  we  have  stopped  plowing  and  fencing. 

N.  C.  MEEKER, 

Indian  Agent. 

On  the  24th  of  September,  which  was  five  days  before  Mr.  Meeker 
was  murdered,  he  wrote  me  this  letter,  which  was  the  last  letter  I  re 
ceived  from  him.  It  is  as  follows: 

MEEKER'S  LAST  LETTER. 

WHITE  RIVER  AGENCY, 

September  24, 1879. 
Governor  F.  W.  PITKIN  : 

DEAR  SIR:  Yours  of  the  19th  received.  I  learn  that  the  soldiers  from  Middle  Park, 
after  reaching  Bear  River,  turned  back.  I  bear  some  are  coming  from  Fort  Steele,  or 
were  to  come,  but  nothing  further. 

Things  are  quiet  because  I  have  ceased  to  make  improvements,  and  the  agency  is 
run  as  the  Indians  wish. 

So  far  as  I  can  gather,  a  large  number  are  getting  ready  to  go  north  to  the  Sweet- 
water  country  to  hunt  buffalo,  and  among  them  are  more  or  less  from  Los  Pinos.  They 
have  urged  me  with  might  and  main  to  distribute  annuity  goods  now,  but  as  a  part 
of  the  goods  are  behind  I  cannot.  Unless  turned  back  they  will,  until  next  July,  cover 
the  whole  country  north  of  the.  reservation.  If  soldiers  come  in,  depredators  will  be 
arrested,  but  I  judge  this  should  be  done  by  legal  process,  the  military  enforcing  it. 

N    C.  MEEKER, 

Indian  Agent. 


WASHINGTON,  January  30,  1880. 
The  committee  met  at  10  a.  m.,  Mr.  Gunter  in  the  chair. 
FREDERICK  W.  PITKIN  recalled  and  further  examined : 
The  WITNESS.  I  wish  to  say  with  reference  to  the  testimony  which  I 
gave  yesterday  in  relation  to  the  interview  between  Chief  Jack  and  the 
other  chiefs  who  visited  my  office  and  myself,  that  there  were  two  state 
ments  made  by  him  which  did   not  occur  to  me  yesterday.     One  was  ail 
{illusion   to  Ouray,  which  is  only  important  as  showing  the  feelings 
which  existed  between  Ouray  and  these  White  Eiver  Utes  at  that  time, 
la  the  course  of  the  conversation  between  Jack  and  myself  I  referred 
co  a  statement  which  Ouray  had   made,  that  some  trader  was  selling 
whisky  to  the   Indians  on  Bear  River,  and  as  soon  as  1  mentioned  the 
name  ot  Oura.v,  Jack  gave  a  sort  of  grunt  and  scowled,  and  the  other 
Indians  made  motions  which  indicated  their  displeasure. 

By  Mr.  GUNTER  : 

Q.  Their  displeasure  at  Jack  or  at  Ouray  ? — A.  Displeasure  at  Oaray, 
as  1  understood  it.  Captain  Jack  then  said  "  Oaray,"  then  gave  a  grunt 
— "Ouray  played  out — President  Johnson  played  out — new  President, 
new  Indian  agent  played  out — new  Indian  agent;  Ouray  played  out,  all 
same  as  white  men  j  Sapovanaro  big  chief."  Those  are  just  about  the 
words  that  he  used. 

By  Mr.  DEERING: 

Q.  What  did  he  mean  by  "  Sapovanero  big  chief"? — A.  S.ipovanero 
is  one  of  the  other  biefs  at  the  Los  Pinos  Agency,  who  has  always  been 
supposed  to  be  less  friendly  to  the  whites  than  Ouray.  The  other  ex 
pression,  which  I  did  not  remember  yesterday  when  *I  was  testifying, 
was  a  remark  that  he  made  about  Father  Meeker.  The  expression  pro- 


110  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

duced  on  my  mind  was  that  his  bearing  with  the  Indians  was  different 
some  da.ys  than  others.  As  near  as  1  can  remember  Jack's  words  they 
were  these:  he  said,  u  Some  days  Agent  Meeker  said  Indians  heap  good 
Indians;  next  day,  heap  bad  Indians."  I  do  not  know  that  it  is  im 
portant  at  all,  and  I  know  nothing  about  the  truth  of  the  statement, 
but  I  think,  out  of  justice  to  Captain  Jack,  I  ought  to  mention  it.  These 
are  the  only  two  things  of  the  conversation  that  I  can  recall  that  Idid 
not  refer  to  yesterday.  The  impression  \vhich  I  gathered  from  what  he 
said  was  that,  perhaps,  some  days  Father  Meeker  was  peevish.  Whether 
that  is  right  or  not  I  do  not  know,  but  it  conveys  the  impression  that 
he  left  on  my  mind. 

As  the  circumstances  immediately  preceding  the  massacre  seem  to  be 
so  important,  and  the  committee  have  called  so  few  witnesses  upon  the 
subject,  I  would  like,  with  the  permission  of  the  committee,  to  read  a 
statement  made  by  Col.  John  W.  Steele,  of  Oberlin.  who  was  at  the 
agency  shortly  before  the  massacre.  Colonel  Steele  has  indicated  his 
willingness  to  come  here  and  testify  to  the  truth  of  the  statement.  This 
letter  is  not  dated,  but  it  was  published  Cctober  10th,  immediately  after 
the  massacre;  it  was  written  about  October  8th  or  9th. 

f  Special  correspondence  of  the  Tribune.  1 

Early  in  July  last  I  was  called  to  Rawlins,  Col.,  to  look  after  the  mail  ronte  fr/>n» 
that  point  to  Woite  River  Agency.  I  remained  at  Dixou,  on  Snake  River,  several 
days.  While  there  Indians  belonging  to  the  Ute  chief  Colorow's  outfit  frequently  came 
to  Dix«»n  to  trade  buckskin  and  furs  for  Winchester  rifles,  ammunition,  and  other  sup 
plies.  I  learned  that  they  were  camped  on  Snake  River,  Fortification  Creek,  and  B.ar 
River,  from  fifty  to  one  hundred  miles  from  their  reservation. 

The  Indians  seemed  to  be  quiet,  but,  the  settlers  complained  that  the  Indians  were 
burning  the  grass  and  timber,  and  occasionally  killing  their  cattle  and  doing  much 
damage  to  the  country.  I  also  heard  much  complaint  from  the  mining  district  near 
Halm's  Peak  and  Middle  Park;  that  the  [ndians  were  burning  the  timber,  and  had 
burned  the  houses  of  several  settlers  and  killed  one  man.  Smoke  was  at  that  time- 
plainly  visible  from  large  fires  on  the  headwaters  of  the  Snake  and  Bear  Rivers.  Oa 
completing  my  business  on  the  mail  route  I  returned  to  Washington.  The  first  week 
in  September  I  was  called  (by  disturbances  on  this  mail  route)  to  visit  it  again.  Ar 
riving  at  Rawlins,  Mr.  Bennett,  the  subcontractor  for  the  route,  told  me  that  he  had 
attempted  to  establish  his  line  of  mail  carriers  on  the  route ;  that  he  had  gone  as  far 
south  as  Fortification  Creek,  where  he  was  met  by  Utes  belonging  to  Colorow  and  Ute 
.  ack's  baud ;  that 

THREE   INDIANS   STOPPED   HIM 

and  told  him  that  he  must  go  back  ;  that  he  parleyed  with  them  and  finally  went  on 
as  far  as  Bear  River,  where  he  was  met  by  more  Indians  of  the  same  tribe,  and,  though 
he  fully  explained  his  business  to  them,  he  was  so  violently  threatened  that  he  returned 
to  Rawlins  without  establishing  the  mail  route.  Bennett  has  freighted  Indian  sup 
plies  to  the  Ute  Reservation  for  several  years,  and  knows  many  of  the  Indians.  He 
was  accompanied  by  a  man  who  has  lived  among  the  Utes  for  years,  and  with  whom 
they  have  heretofore  been  friendly.  Both  advised  that  it  would  be  dangerous  to  at 
tempt  to  go  to  the  agency.  On  the  night  of  September  4  I  arrived  at  Snake  River, 
and  on  the  5th  went  to  Bear  River,  meeting  no  Indians  on  the  way,  but  finding  the 
grass  and  timber  destroyed  by  fire  all  the  way  along  the  route.  I  remained  at  Bear 
River  several  days  endeavoring  to  find  parties  to  carry  the  mail  to  the  agency. 

Many  of  the  settlers  were  alarmed  by  the  hostile  actions  of  the  Utes.  Others  antici 
pated  no  trouble,  but  all  complained  of  the  burning  of  the  grass  and  timber.  On  the 
morning  of  September  10th  I  started  with  two  mail  carriers  for  the  agency.  We  rode 
over  the  route  followed  by  Major  Thornburg's  command,  and  at  noon  rested  at  the 
mouth  of  the  canon  where  the  battle  has  since  taken  place.  Here  at  a  tent  occupied 
by  an  Indian  trader,  and  two  miles  from  the  reservation,  we  met  a  number  of  Utes, 
one  of  whom  asked  where  I  was  going.  I  told  him  to  the  agency.  After  a  short  talk 
with  other  Indians,  he  told  me  we  must  go  back.  I  made  no  reply,  but  leaving  one  of 
the  carriers  at  the  tent,  1  proceeded  up  the  canon  in  which  the  Indians  laid  the  am 
buscade  for  Major  Thornburgh's  command,  toward  the  agency.  The  Indians  followed 
us  to  the  agency.  I  afterwards  learned  that  they  belonged  to  Ute  Jack's  party.  We* 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  Ill 

arrived  at  the  White  River  Agency  about  6  o'clock  p.  m  ,  and  found  a  number  of  In 
dians  there,  some  of  wborn  seemed  greatly  excited.  I  soon  iearued  tbat  the  agent,  Mr. 
Meeker,  had  a  short  time  before  my  arrival  been  violently  assaulted  by  a  Ute  Chief 
named  Johnson,  and  severely,  if  not  dangerously,  injured.  The  white  laborers  told  me 
that  they  had  been  tired  on  while  plowing  in  the  Held  and  driven  to  the  agency  build 
ings,  but  that  they  were  not  much  scared,  as  they  Thought  the  Indians  only  wanted  to 
prevent  the  work,  and  fired  to  frighten  them.  Finding  Mr.  W.  H.  Post,  the  agent's 
chief  clerk  and  postmaster  at  White  River,  in  his  office,  I  proceeded  to  transact  my 
business  with  him.  While  engaged  at  this  the  Indians  began  to  congregate  in  the 
building.  Mr.  Post  introduced' me  to  Chiefs  Ute  Jack,  Washington,  Antelope,  and 
others. 

Ute  Jack  seemed  to  be  the  leader,  and  asked  me  my  name  and  business.  I  told  him. 
He  inquired  if  I  came  from  Fort  Steele  and  if  the  soldiers  were  coining.  I  replied  that 
I  knew  nothing  of  the  soldiers.  Jack  said  : 

"xo  'FRAID  OF  SOLDIERS. 

Fort  Steele  soldiers  no  fight.  Utes  heap  fight."  He  again  asked  my  name  and  when  I 
was  going  away.  I  replied,  "In  the  morning."  Jack  said,  "  Better  go  pretty  quick."  I 
offered  him  a  cigar  and  repeated  that  I  would  go  in  the  morning.  He  then  inquired  for 
Mr.  Meeker,  and  said  to  Post :  "  Utes  heap  talk  to  me.  Utes  say  agent  plow  no  more. 
Utes  say  Meeker  must  go  way.  Meeker  say  Utes  work.  Work!  work  !  Ute  no  like  work. 
Ute  no  work.  Ute  no  school ;  no  like  school,"  and  much  more  of  the  same  sort.  Jack 
asked  Mr  Post  when  the  Indian  goods  would  be  issued.  Post  replied,  "  In  two  moons." 
Jack  said  the  goods  were  issued  at  the  Uncornpahgre  Agency  ;  that  four  Indians  had 
come  Irom  there  and  told  him.  Post  replied,  '•  Guess  not."  Mr.  Post  said  to  me, 
"  Every  fall  there  is  more  or  less  discontent  among  the  Indians,  which  finally  dies  out. 
This  year  there  is  more  than  usual.  Jack's  band  got  mad  last  week  because  I  would 
not  issue  rations  to  sorre  Uinta  Utes  who  had  come  here,  and  all  the  bucks  refused  to 
draw  their  supplies.  The  squaws  drew  for  themselves  and  children."  I  asked  if  the 
miners  were  not  making  trouble  with  the  Indians.  Post  replied  he  had  not  heard 

ANY   COMPLAINT   FROM   THE   INDIANS   ABOUT  MINERS 

or  settlers;  that  they  were  kept  off  the  reservation  and  made  no  trouble.  The  whole 
complaint  of  the  Indians  has  been  about  plowing  the  land  and  being  made  to  work,  and 
requiring  the  children  to  go  to  school,  and  that  very  recently  they  had  shown  great 
anxiety  to  have  the  Indian  goods  distributed,  and  complained  aboutthat ;  that  he  could 
not  distribute  the  goods  as  they  had  not  all  arrived  at  the  agency. 

Mr.  Meeker  came  in  for  a  short  time  while  we  were  talking.  About  eight  o'clock  I 
went  to  his  quarters  and  found  him 

PROPPED  UP  IN  HIS  ARM-CHAIR 

with  pillows,  evidently  suffering  severely  from  injuries  received  from  the  assault  of 
Chief  Johnson.  After  a  short  talk  we  discovered  that  we  had  formerly  been  fellow- 
townsmen,  which  opened  the  way  for  a  free  conversation  about  mutual  acquaintances. 
After  which  Mr.  Meeker  said,  "  I  came  to  this  agency  in  the  full  belief  that  I  could 
civilize  these  Utes  ;  that  I  could  teach  them  to  work  and  become  self-supporting.  I 
thought  tbat  I  could  establish  schools  and  interest  both  Indians  and  their  children  in 
learning.  I  have  given  my  .best  efforts  to  this  end,  always  treating  them  kindly,  but 
firmly.  They  have  eaten  at  my  table  and  received  continued  kindness  from  my  wife 
and  daughter  and  all  the  employe's  about  the  agency.  Their  complaints  have  been 
heard  patiently  and  all  reasonable  rr  quests  have  been  granted  them,  and  now,  th& 
man  for  whom  I  have  done  the  most,  for  whom  I  have  built  the  only  Indian  house  on 
the  reservation,  and  who  has  frequently  eaten  at  my  table,  has  turned  on  me  without 
the  slightest  provocation,  and. 

WOULD  HAVE  KILLED  ME 

but  for  the  white  laborers  who  got  me  away.  No  Indian  raised  his  hand  to  prevent 
the  outrage,  and  those  who  had  received  continued  kindness  from  myself  and  family 
stood  around  and  laughed  at  the  brutal  assault.  They  are  an  unreliable  and  treach 
erous  race."  Mr.  Meeker  further  said  that  previous  to  this  assault  on  him  he  had  ex 
pected  to  see  the  discontent  die  out  as  soon  as  the  annuity  goods  arrived,  but  he  was- 
now  somewhat  anxious  about  the  matter.  In  reply  to  an  inquiry,  he  said  that  the 
whole  complaint  of  the  Indians  was  against  plowing  the  land,  against  work,  and  the 
school. 


112  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

I  told  him  I  thought  there  was  great  danger  of  an  outbreak  and  I  thought  that  he 
•should  abandon  the  agency  at  once.  To  this  he  made  no  reply.  Shortly  after  Ute 
-Jack  came  into  the  room  where  we  were  sitting  and  proceeded  to  catechize  me  nearly 
AS  before.  He  then  turned  to  Mr.  Meeker  and  repeated  the  talk  about  work,  then 
Basked  the  agent  it'  he  had  sent  for  soldiers.  Mr.  Meeker  told  him  he  had  not.  Jack 
then  said  "  Utes  have  heap  more  talk,"  and  left  us. 

During  t.h°>  conversation  Mr.  Meeker  said  that  Chief  Douglass  was  head  chief  at  that 
agency,  but  that 

HE   HAD   NO   FOLLOWERS 

and  little  influence.  That  Douglass  and  his  party  had  remained  on  the  reservation  all 
$he  summer  and  had  been  friendly  to  the  whites  ;  that  Colorow,  Ute  Jack,  Johnson, 
•and  their  followers  paid  no  attention  to  his  orders  and  had  been  off  the  reservation 
unost  of  the  summer.  That  Chief  Ouray  was  head  chief  but  had  lost  his  influence  with 
and  control  of  the  Northern  Utes. 

I  auaiu  urged  on  him  the  danger  of  remaining  at  the  agency,  when  he  told  me  he 
•would  send  for  troops  for  protection.  During  this  conversation  the  Indians  had  re 
mained  around  the  agency  buildings,  making  much  noise.  About  ten  o'clock  I  went 
to  the  quarters  assigned  me  for  the  night  in  the  storehouse  offi  -e.  Soon  after  this  the 
Indians  began  shouting  and  dancing  in  one  of  the  agency  buildings  and  around  the 
agent's  quarters.  About  midnight  Mr.  Meeker  attempted  to  quiet  them,  but  was  only 
partially  successful,  and  the  red  devils  made  it  exceedingly  uncomfortable  for  me  most 
of  the  night.  I  was  told  in  the  morning  that  the  Indians  had 

HAD   A   WAR    DANCE 

Those  who  saw  and  could  have  described  the  scene  are  all  dead  now.  At  daylight  the 
ibueks  had  all  disappeared.  After  breakfast  I  called  on  Mr.  Meeker  in  his  room  to  bid 
bim  good  by.  He  told  me  he  had  written  for  troops,  and  requested  me  to  telegraph 
for  relief  as  soon  as  I  reached  Rawlins.  Afoer  bidding  all  good  by  I  mounted  my  horse 
and,  not  without  many  misgivings,  started  for  Bear  River.  This  was  the  last  I  saw  of 
Father  Meeker.  A  man  of  the  Puritau  stamp,  an  enthusiast  in  whatever  work  he  un 
dertook,  he  had  given  his  whole  soul  to  the  work  of  civilizing  the  Utea.  It  is  a  waste 
of  word*  to  siy  that  he  wis  honest  and  honorable  in  all  his  dealings  with  them,  for 
fcis  life  has  been  public  and  his  character  beyond  reproach. 

Mrs.  Meeker  is  one  of  the 

GENTLEST    AND   MOST    MOTHERLY   WOMEN 

I  have  ever  met;  with  a  heart  large  enough  to  embrace  all  humanity.  Her  kindly 
disposition  and  gentle  manner  should  have  protected  her  from  the  assault  of  the  veriest 
i>rute.  Miss  Josie  seemed  to  me  to  have  inherited  much  of  the  force  and  enthusiasm 
«of  her  father.  She  appeared  to  have  overcome  the  feeliug  of  disgust  which  sivages 
tnust  inspire  in  any  lady,  and  to  have  entered  on  her  duty  of  teaching  with  the  high 
est  missionary  spirit.  Around  this  family  were  gathered,  as  help,  paople  peculiarly 
.genial,  aid  calculated  to  win  by  kindness  the  regard  of  the  Utes,  Those  who  seek 
tpalliation  for  this  bloody  massacre  mast  look  elsewhere  than  in  the  family  or  among 
the  employe's  of  Father  Meeker. 

On  the  return  trip  to  Bear  River  I  met  many  Indians  going  to  the  agency  for  the  issue 
•of  rations.  Several  of  the  bucks  hailed  me,  but  I  hadn't  time  to  stop.  At  the  trader's 
in  the  calion  I  found  several  indians  purchasing  supplies.  At  the  crossing  of  Howard's 
Fork,  thirty  miles  from  the  agency,  I  met  three  Indians,  two  of  whom  I  saw  at  the 
.agency  the  night  before.  They  stopped  me  and  inquired  for 

AMMUNITION   FOR  WINCHESTER   RIFLES. 

I  replied  uNo  sabe."  Afcer  detaining  me  for  nearly  one-half  hour,  I  persuaded  them 
to  let  me  pass,  and  reached  Riwlins  without  further  incident  worthy  of  mention,  aad 
itn mediately  telegraphed  and  wrote  General  Sheridan  the  condition  of  affairs  at  White 
•R'.ver,  and  received  his  reply  that  aid  would  be  sent  at  once. 

By  Mr.  POEHLER  : 

Q.  What  is  Mr.  Steele's  business  !— A.  He  is  establishing  mail-routes. 
I  do  not  know  whether  he  is  connected  with  the  Post-Office  Department 
or  with  some  mail  contractors.  He  will  be  here  in  two  or  three  weeks. 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  113 

By  Mr.  GUNTER  : 

Q.  This  visit  of  which  he  speaks  was  a  short  time  before  the  fight 
and  the  massacre  at  the  agency  ? — A.  It  was  between  two  and  three 
weeks  before  the  agent  was  massacred ;  I  do  not  know  the  exact  date. 
The  Meeker  massacre  occurred  just  four  months  ago  yesterday.  I  sup 
pose  it  would  be  an  important  fact  for  the  committee  in  determining 
the  relation  of  the  tribe  to  the  white  people,  if  it  could  be  ascertained 
how  many,  if  any,  of  the  Uncornpahgre  Utes  were  in  the  Thornburgh 
fight;  that  is,  how  many  of  Ouray's  baud  were  there.  I  believe  that  a 
considerable  number  of  Ouray's  warriors,  the  younger  portion  of  his 
tribe,  were  in  the  fight,  and  I  will  state  my  reasons  for  the  belief  so  that 
you  may  be  able  to  determine,  as  well  as  I  can,  whether  I  am  correct. 
All  reports  from  Ouray's  agency,  represented  that  his  warriors  were 
away  at  the  time  of  the  Thornburgh  fight.  It  was  claimed  that  they 
were  off  on  their  annual  hunt.  Father  Meeker's  letter  of  September 
24,  written  five  days  before  his  death,  contains  this  language:  "  So  far 
as  I  can  gather,  a  large  number  are  getting  ready  to  go  north  to  the 
Sweetwater  country  to  hunt  buffalo,  and  among  them  are  more  or  less 
from  Los  Pinos."  That  seems  to  me  conclusive  that  among  those  In 
dians  then  congregating  for  what  afterwards  proved  to  be  the  Thorn 
burgh  fight  were  more  or  less  Indians  from  Los  Pinos.  About  eight 
days  after  the  fight,  in  response  to  very  alarming  telegrams  which  I  re 
ceived  from  Lake  City,  I  sent  Mnjor-General  Cook,  of  the  State  militia, 
on  a  special  train  from  Denver  to  relieve  that  point,  and  on  his  return 
he  reported  to  me  that  he  had  sent  out  scouts  to  the  agency,  who  brought 
back  word  to  him  that  Ouray's  Utes  were  returning  with  their  horses 
tired  out  as  though  they  had  been  ridden  hard,  and  that  they  brought 
back  no  game.  That  was  about  ten  days  after  the  massacre.  Another 
fact  is  that  Ouray  stated  to  Mr.  Saunders,  the  editor  of  the  Ouray  Times, 
that  his  cousin  and  nephew  were  killed  by  Major  Thorn  burgh's  soldiers 
before  the  fight.  Now,  I  have  never  seen  any  report  which  indicated 
that  Thornburgh's  soldiers  had  fired  a  gun  prior  to  the  time  that  they 
were  attacked  in  the  caiiou.  If  they  had  been  killing  Indians  they 
probably  would  have  expected  an  attack,  but  all  reports  agree  that  they 
were  marching  along  seeming  to  think  that  the  Indians  were  friendly 
and  anticipated  nothing  hostile  until  they  were  surrounded  by  those  In 
dians  ;  so  that  if  Ouray's  cousin  and  nephew  were  killed  by  Thornburgh's 
soldiers  they  were  probably  killed  in  the  fight  rather  than  before  it. 
Mr.  Saunders  published  that  statement  in  the  Ouray  Times;  I  saw  him 
in  Denver  the  day  before  I  started  for  Washington,  and  asked  him  it' 
Ouray  made  the  statement  to  him  in  that  way,  and  he  said  he  did. 
The  Hon.  Thomas  M.  Field,  a  citizen  of  the  highest  standing  in  the 
State,  who  three  years  ago  was  the  Democratic  candidate  for  State 
treasurer,  and  a  year  ago  a  candidate  for  lieutenant-governor  on  the 
Democratic  ticket,  informed  me  that  his  firm  of  Field  &  Hill  had 
bought  the  skins  sold  by  Ouray's  tribe  for  several  years  past,  and  that 
the  skins  which  they  had  for  sale,  generally  averaged  five  to  seven 
thousand  pounds  per  annum.  He  told  me  that  he  went  there  this  year 
to  buy  their  skins,  and  bought  all  he  could  find,  and  I  think  he  stated 
the  number  to  be  sixteen  pounds;  at  all  events,  a  very  insignificant 
number,  less  than  one  hundred  pounds.  If  these  Utes  had  been  on  a 
hunt  and  their  hunt  had  been  shortened  by  the  outbreak,  we  might 
imagine  a  very  large  falling  off,  but  I  could  hardly  conceive  of  there 
being  an  absolute  failure  of  having  some  skins  for  sale  it  they  were  on 
a  genuine  hunt  as  claimed.  A  chief  whose  influence  has  been  supposed 
to  be  very  nearly  equal  to  Ouray's,  but  slightly  less,  by  the  name  of 
H.  Mis.  38 8 


114  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

Billy,  and  who  I  have  been  repeatedly  informed  by  people  living  near 
the  agency  and  familiar  with  it,  would  probably  be  elected  to  succeed 
Ouray  in  case  of  his  death,  was  at  Leadville  about  ten  days  or  two  weeks 
before  the  Thornburgh  fight.  My  attention  was  called  to  the  fact  of  his 
being  there  because  the  sheriff  of  Gunnison  county  telegraphed  me  in 
relation  to  what  he  should  do  to  recover  some  horses  about  which  there 
was  a  controversy.  I  had  been  a  friend  of  Billy's,  and  when  I  was  in 
the  San  Juan  country  last  summer  I  was  informed  that  he  had  been  every 
day  for  six  weeks  to  the  agency  to  meet  me  to  talk  over  the  condition 
of  affairs  among  the  Indians  ;  I  had  a  talk  with  him  as  I  came  back  and 
I  felt  very  friendly  to  him,  and  believed  that  he  was  the  most  reliable 
man  there  was  in  the  tribe,  unless  Ouray  himself  might  possibly  be 
excepted.  When  I  received  word  on  the  1st  of  October  of  the  massacre 
of  Thoruburgh  and  the  probable  massacre  of  the  agency  people,  I  imme 
diately  telegraphed  to  all  frontier  points  to  send  out  couriers  to  warn 
our  settlers  in  the  country  bordering  on  the  line  of  the  reservation  of 
the  outbreak,  apprehending  that  the  Indians  might  attack  the  mining 
settlements,  and  warning  the  settlers  to  prepare  to  defend  themselves. 
After  sending  a  dispatch  to  General  Wilson,  at  Leadville,  directing  him 
to  send  runners  to  the  country  west,  northwest,  and  southwest  of  him, 
I  happened  to  think  of  Captain  Billy,  and  a  few  moments  later  than  the 
first  dispatch,  I  sent  a  second  requesting  General  Wilson  to  have  his 
couriers  notify  the  settlers  thatif  Captain  Billy  was  still  in  the  settlement 
they  should  see  that  he  was  not  harmed,  as  he  had  been  a  lifelong 
friend  to  the  whites.  The  next  I  heard  of  Captain  Billy  was  that  when 
General  Adams  went  to  rescue  the  captured  women,  he  was  among 
the  hostiles.  General  Adams  informed  me  on  his  return  that  Captain 
Billy  refused  to  speak  to  him  the  night  he  arrived  there  and  the  next 
morning  before  he  started  to  meet  General  Meritt's  command,  and 
also  that  he  refused  to  speak  to  him  on  his  return  to  the  Indians  from 
General  Merritt7s  camp,  although  General  Adams  had  been  the  agent  of 
the  tribe,  and  Billy  had  been  under  his  command,  and  had  assisted  him, 
as  I  understand,  in  the  capacity  of  servant.  I  subsequently  learned  that 
after  leaving  Leadville,  instead  of  going  down  to  the  southwest  towards 
Los  Pinos,  on  the  Gunnison  trail,  he  went  up  by  the  way  of  Irwin,  on  the 
White  Kiver  trail  going  north.  Mr.  N.  M.  Curtis,  who  has  been  for 
twenty  years  the  interpreter  of  the  tribe,  informed  me  that  Billy  went 
north  to  the  White  Kiver  Agency,  passing  his  camp,  and  that  he  had  a 
long  talk  with  him  by  the  way.  If  Billy  had  been  an  obscure  Indian 
this  would  not  have  had  as  great  significance  as  it  has,  from  the  fact 
that  he  was  an  Indian  of  great  prominence  and  one  of  the  younger 
members  of  the  tribe.  It  would  probably  have  required  a  very  lareje 
Indian  force  to  put  so  large  a  number  of  our  soldiers  166  on  the  defen 
sive,  force  them  to  retire,  and  even  imperil  their  existence.  Yet  I  have 
no  doubt  that  they  would  have  been  all  destroyed  but  for  the  forced 
marches  made  by  Dodge's  and  Merritt's  commands  to  rescue  them,  and 
in  my  opinion  all  the  White  Eiver  warriors  together  were  not  sufficient, 
unaided,  to  have  put  the  soldiers  in  that  condition. 

By  Mr.  DEERING  : 

Q.  Do  you  think  this  was  done  with  Ouray's  sanction  ? — A.  No,  sir  ; 
I  do  not  think  it  was.  I  think  Ouray  has  felt  for  many  years,  for 
seventeen  or  eighteen  years,  extremely  friendly  to  the  whites ;  but  I 
think  that  on  account  of  his  extreme  friendship  for  the  whites  he  had, 
in  a  measure,  lost  his  control  over  the  younger  members  of  the  tribe. 
They  had  not  seen  the  power  of  the  Federal  Government  as  Ouray  had 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  115 

during  the  rebellion,  when  he  saw  one  or  two  hundred  thousand  soldiers 
in  camp.  I  am  informed  by  Governor  Evans  that  after  Ouray  returned 
from  the  visit  to  Washington  during  the  war,  he  told  the  Utes  that  he 
had  seen  soldiers  enough  to  station  a  line  around  the  entire  Ute  reserva 
tion,  and  if  they  attempted  to  fight  the  Federal  Government  these  lines 
would  advance  and  destroy  them  all.  Ouray  also  has  property  interests, 
and  he  has  a  salary  of  $1,000  a  year  from  the  Federal  Government,  all 
of  which  would  make  it  his  interest  to  be  a  friend  of  the  whites,  and  I 
have  no  doubt  he  is  sincerely  so,  but  I  think  that  the  younger  members 
had  broken  away  from  his  restraints,  and  that  he  was  unable  to  control 
them.  I  have  been  assured  by  settlers  living  near  there  that  the  num 
ber  that  he  controlled  prior  to  the  outbreak  was  very  limited,  but  since 
the  outbreak  occurred  he  has  undoubtedly  been  doing  what  any  states 
man  would  do  to  protect  his  people.  In  my  judgment,  his  conduct  as  a 
member  of  the  peace  commission  has  not  been  strictly  impartial.  Some 
of  the  Indians  were  in  his  house  with  him  ;  the  witnesses  were  there 
with  him,  they  came  up  with  him,  and  the  reports  in  our  papers  have 
indicated  that  war-dances  were  held  in  his  house  during  the  nights  he 
was  there  with  the  "witnesses  and  the  chiefs  who  have  been  accused  of 
these  crimes.  I  think  if  Ouray  had  not  adhered  to  the  interests  of  his 
tribe  he  would  have  been  killed  by  the  tribe,  and  I  understand  that  he 
regarded  his  life  as  in  danger  at  times  during  the  sessions  of  the  com 
mission. 

By  Mr.  GUNTER  : 

Q,  Douglas  seems  to  be  controlling  a  small  band  ;  what  is  your 
opinion  as  to  his  friendship  for  the  government J? — A.  As  far  as  his  re 
lations  to  the  government  are  concerned*.  I  think  they  were  morex 
friendly  than  those  of  any  Ute  connected  with  the  White  Eiver  tribe, 
but  I  believe  that  the  tribe  now  is  nearly  all  warlike.  If  General'Hatch 
comes  before  your  committee,  as  I  understand  he  will,  he  is  able  to  give 
the  facts  uoon  the  subject;  but  I  have  been  told  by  a  gentleman  that 
General  Hatch  said  to  him  that  the  Indians  were  more  anxious  to  fight 
than  the  whites  were. 

Q.  They  were  a  portion  of  Douglas's  immediate  followers  that  were 
in  the  Thornburgh  fight,  were  they  not  ! — A.  Not  Douglas's  men,  I  think. 
I  understood  that  his  men  were  mostly  connected  with  the  murders  at 
the  agency,  the  destruction  of  the  buildings,  and  the  subsequent  out 
rages  perpetrated,  but  that  it  was  Jack's,  Antelope's,  and  Colorow's 
band,  with  such  assistance  as  they  received  from  other  parts  of  the  tribe 
(providing  they  did  receive  assistance),  that  fought  the  soldiers.  Mr. 
John  B.  Adams,  county  clerk  and  recorder  of  Carbon  County,  Wyo 
ming,  the  county  seat  of  which  is  Kawlins,  and  also  agent  of  the  Union 
Pacific  Railroad  Company,  sent  this  dispatch  to  the  Denver  News.  It 
is  dated  October  28,  and  reads  as  follows : 

Charles  Wilson,  who  was  in  charge  of  a  trading  store  near  the  scene  of  the  Milk 
Creek  battle,  says  that 

MANY   STRANGE   INDIANS 

were  at  his  place  with  the  White  River  Utes  just  the  day  previous  to  Thornburgh's 
fight,  and  he  is  positive  they  were  Southern  Utes. 
He  says  he  was  going  into  the  agency  the  evening 

BEFORE   THE   FIGHT, 

and  that  when  he  had  reached  the  place  where  the  battle  was  afterward  fought  he  met 
Jack  and  a  large  band  of  Indians,  among  whom  were  the  strange  Indians,  and  that 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

JACK  TOLD  HIM 


t  ******  ki"  y°U;  t«v  Leap  fight; 

GENERAL  ADAMS'S  REPORT 

'  aUd  tbat  tbey  never  fired  a  Shot  until  after  they 

Understanding  that  so  few  witnesses  were  to  be  called,  I  wrote  Mr 
Adams,  who  is  a  man  of  position  and  standing,  for  the  facts,  and  in  re' 
ply  I  received  from  him  the  following  letter,  which  refers  to  qritfa 
Dumber  of  witnesses  to  the  facts,  which  they  would  testify  to  if  sub 
STt  •          '  andlftheoommi"<*  are  willing  to  hear  it  read,  I  will 

OFFICE  OF  J.  B.  ADAMS, 
COUNTY  CLERK  AND  REGISTER  OF  DEEDS, 

CARBON  COUNTY,  WYOMING, 
F  W   PiTK-rv  Bawlins,  January  21,  1880. 


SIR:  I  have  the  K  ^  all  mv^c  Lift  ^l  T**  °V°Ur  favor  of  the  19th  i> 
and  hasten  to  reply,  .  n  SLSf  2E?tt  thf,  De.n  ver  News  I  endeavored  to  say  noth 
ing  which,  could  not  be  V  Trd'tndi  t  t?WI{  £lvey°«my  authority: 

1st.  My  special  with  rea  TWLSS  the  Indians  told  Charles  Wilson  was  based 
Upon  information  received  k  *  ?n,fT  T£yloT>  W^°  °7?ed  the  trading-post  near  the 
scene  of  the  Thornburgh  ba«fe  V  ^°Se  employ  Wilson  at  that  time  was. 

The  special  r.ferS  wJ^  ^S&^K*  Tay]or  iu  tbe  presence  of  several 
witB.qsse»'  I  can  Substantiate  tftfe  -asMm  m  r't  °W?  ^  ?e  °aths  °f  8everal 
others.  ™8  man  Taylor  is  aoir  fe  V  rZd  thi^  ?J'  a8  J  T  lnformfed'  io  th«  inter 
ests  of  the  White  River  tftes,  I  am  iifi'Jk  ^et  nr«  Jv  §^7  a,  per"°n  who  Ol^ht  to 
know  that  Charles  Wilson  and  one  Slitee-  5>s  supposed  to  be  with  an  outfit  con 

veying  arms  and  ammunition  to  the  Utes-&x      fSS  " 

2d.  L.  Calvert  and  William  Aylewrorth,.  jir:.  .  lu.e  a"d  repeated-  the  same  to 

me  to-day  that  on  Saturday  previous  to  the  1^  Disaster  they  met  a  man 

named  Fairchilds  about  thirty  miles  this  sMe  oi^fl^  ageucy.  He  warned  Calvert  and 
Aylesworth  not  to  go  near  the  agency?  aa-id-She  hadijK  _-c,ome  *foru  there>  and  that  the 
Indians  were  all  ready  for  battle  ;  that  the  Indian  flofo  u;m  tJje  soldiers  were  coming 
and  they  were  going  out  to  meet  them  and  give  tfoem>  Ib'Su  ^le,  and  that  a  great  many 
Indians  had  already  gone,  and  that  he  (Fairchilds)  had'  noOO.'ibt  but  what  the  agency 
employes  had  ere  then  been  massacred.  Fairchilds  is-  HOW  at  Ashley's  Fork.  Calvert 
and  Aylesworth  are  here  and  ready  to  testify. 

3d.  I  am  informed  by  these  same  gentlemen,  as  well  a»  fey  others,  that  Mrs,  Peck, 
wife  of  a  trader,  made  the  following  statement  to  Mike  Sweet  and  othery  :  "Jack,  with 
a  large  party  of  Indians,  was  here  yesterday;  they  said  they  were  going  to  fight  the 
soldiers  to-morrow,  and  wanted  a  large  lot  of  cartridges.  I  gaTe  them  the  cartridge* 
because  I  was  afraid  to  refuse  them.  Jack  said  to  me,  "Mebbe  so  to-morrow.  Mebbe 
so  two  sleeps.  Heap  fight  soldiers.  Fort  Steele  soldiers  come  here.  Ute  heap  kill 
'em  ;  mebbe  so;  kill  'em  all.  Now  you  no  see  me  two  sleeps.  You  go  railroad.  Ute  heap 
inad.  Mebbe  so  kill  you."  Calvert  and  Aylesworth  are  willing  to  swear  to  this  state 
ment. 

4th.  The  day  previous  to  the  massacre,  L.  Calvert  and'William  Aylesworth,  jr.,  met 
Jack  and  his  party.  Jack  said  to  them,  "  Heap  soldiers  come  here,  mebbe  so  soldiers 
heap  fight,  mebbe  so  run,  Ute  heap  good  gun,  heap  fight  soldiers,  Ute  no  run.  Now, 
mebbe  so  fight  to-morrow,  mebbe  so  two  sleeps,  Utes  kill  'em  all."  An  Indian  known 
as  Chinaman  had  a  great  deal  to  say  in  this  last  conversation.  Calvert  and  Ayles 
worth  are  ranchmen  who  live  on  Snake  River.  Have  been  to  the  agency  a  good 
many  times,  freighting,  carrying  mail,  &c.,and  know  all  the  White  River  Utes  by 
sight,  and  they  say  positively,  and  will  so  swear,  that  there  were  many  strange  Indians 
with  Jack  and  his  party.  They  are  of  the  opinion  that  they  were  Southern  Utes,  the 
statement  of  Fairchilds  that  there  were  twenty  or  twenty-five  Uintah  Utes  at  the 
agency  notwithstanding. 

5th.  A  day  or  two  before  the  battle  Ferguson  Trotter  met  a  party  of  Utes  under  com 
mand  of  an  Indian  known  as  "  Big  Joe,"  who  said  to  Trotter,  "  You  see  soldiers  f 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  117 

How  many  soldiers  you  see  ?"  and  upon  being  answered  that  he  did  not  know  how 
many  soldiers  there  were,  Joe  said,  "All  right,  me  no  care  how  many.  Heap  Ute,  all 
same,  kill  'em  anyhow.  Me  kill  five,  mebbe  so  seven,  mebbesoten."  This  information 
is  given  me  by  Mr.  Calvert.  Trotter  is  at  present  with  the  command  at  White  River 
in  the  capacity  of  butcher. 

6th.  J.  P.  Rankin  made  the  following  statement  to  me  after  the  battle  and  repeated 
the  same  to-day,  referring  to  Thornburgh's  movements  two  days  before  the  battle:  "We 
met  Jack,  Colorow,  and  other  Indians,  who  acted  as  if  they  wanted  to  fight ;  they  were 
very  saucy  and  told  us  we  had  better  go  back.  By  Thornburgh's  order,  scout  Charles 
Lowry  went  to  the  agency.  When  he  returned  (the  evening  before  the  battle)  he 
made  the  following  statement  to  me  :  'I  had  a  hell  of  a  time  getting  out  of  there ;  at 
first  they  would  not  allow  me  to  leave  at  all,  but  finally  allowed  me  to  leave  after  tak 
ing  my  gun  from  me.  They  said  they  were  going  to  fight  the  soldiers.  They  were 
painted  in  a  hideous  manner,  and  mean  business.  They  advised  me  to  keep  out  of  the 
way,  and  was  then  talking  of  killing  the  agent  and  employe's.  Father  Meeker  said  he 
would  leave,  but  they  would  not  permit  him  to  do  so.  I  have  no  doubt  but  what  they 
have  all  been  killed  before  now.  We  will  catch  hell  to-morrow,  and  don't  you  forget 
it,  and  will  get  it  in  that  canon.  The  Indians  told  me  that  if  the  soldiers  came  on  the 
reservation  that  they  would  attack  them.'  This  man  Lowry  was  killed  during  the  en 
gagement,  which  took  place  at  the  time  and  at  the  place  predicted  by  him."  Rankin 
is  willing  to  swear  to  this  statement. 

7th.  A  man  named  John  Easum,who  resides  on  Bear  River,  was  talking  with  me 
as  Thornburgh's  column  left  Rawlins.  He  said,  "  It's  too  bad  to  see  a  handful  of  men 
going  out  in  that  way  to  be  slaughtered  ;  they  will  never  reach  the  agency."  I  told 
him  I  thought  he  was  mistaken  ;  that  I  did  not  think  the  Utes  would  show  fight.  He 
said  he  knew  better,  that  they  had  been  preparing  for  along  time.  Easum  understands 
their  language  sufficiently  to  enable  him  to  keep  up  with  the  conversation  which  he 
heard  between  them  on  Bear  River,  and  he  says  positively  that  the  Indians  had  been 
preparing  for  a  fight,  and,  on  account  of  the  conversation  he  heard  at  that  time,  he  im 
mediately  moved  his  family  to  Rawlins  for  safety.  This  man  Easum  knows  a  great 
deal.  He  is  here  in  town  and  is  willing  to  appear  before  the  committee  and  testify. 

8tb.  Col.  J.  W.  Steele,  agent  for  M.  C.  Rerdell,  mail  contractor  Rawlins  to  White 
River,  went  over  the  route  a  short  time  before  the  massacre.  He  says  the  Indians 
made  hostile  statements  and  gave  him  distinctly  to  understand  that  they  meant  war. 
The  Indians  told  him  they  were  going  to  fight  the  soldiers.  Colonel  Steele  leaves  for 
Washington  to-morrow  on  mail-service  business. 

9th.  Mr.  William  Ike,  of  this  place,  went  over  the  route  and  will  testify  that  the 
Indians  had  made  preparations  and  were  ready  to  fight  the  soldiers. 

10th.  Mr.  E.  W.  Bennett  will  testify  substantially  to  the  same  facts  as  Colonel  Steele 
and  William  Ike. 

llth.  Chief  Douglas  told  mi  m  the  presence  of  several  witnesses  that  lie  could  clear 
out  the  soldiers  at  Fort  Steele.  This  was  when  Douglas  was  threatening  to  take  some 
of  their  goods  out  of  my  freight-house  by  force,  and  I  told  him  if  he  attempted  it  I 
could  have  soldiers  from  Fort  Steele  in  an  hour.  I  could  cite  rnany  more  cases  and 
give  the  names  of  many  more  persons  who  would  testify  to  facts  proving  that  the  at 
tack  was  premeditated,  but  think  I  have  already  given  enough.  Should  you  need  any 
more,  however,  communicate  with  me  and  you  shall  have  them. 
I  have  the  honor  to  be,  your  obedient  servant, 

J.  B.  ADAMS. 

I  have  no  knowledge  of  any  mining  camp  on  the  Indian  reservation. 
The  most  westerly  camp  aside  from  the  San  Juan  country  in  here  (re 
ferring  to  the  map  before  him)  is  a  camp  which  was  called  Ruby  last 
spring,  and  the  name  of  which  was  changed  to  Irwin  during  the  latter 
part  of  the  summer  or  the  fall.  The  miners  in  that  camp  believed  that 
they  were  not  on  the  reservation,  and  were  anxious  to  determine  last 
summer  whether  they  were  or  not.  I  received  frequent  letters  from 
them  upon  the  subject,  as  they  desired  to  locate  their  mines  off  the  reser 
vation.  1  sent  them  such  maps  as  I  could  get  and  certain  reports  either 
by  Hayden  or  Wheeier,  describing  the  country  there  and  giving  the 
prominent  peculiarities,  so  that  they  might  determine  by  the  107th 
meridian,  which  is  the  eastern  boundary  of  the  reservation,  whether 
their  camp  was  off  it  or  not.  Late  in  the  fall  the  surveyor-general  of 
the  State  informed  me  that  his  deputies  had  carefully  examined  into  the 
matter  with  reference  to  preparations  for  the  patenting  of  certain  mining 
claims  or  the  town  site  there,  and  he  referred  me  to  them  for  statements 


118  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

upon  the  subject.  I  addressed  a  communication  to  the  two  United 
States  surveyors  located  at  that  place,  who  were  in  Denver  at  the  time. 
These  are  United  States  officials,  with  whom  the  State  has  nothing  to 
do.  They  are  appointed  by  the  United  States  surveyor-general,  and 
they  represent  the  government  in  their  surveys.  In  reply  to  a  letter 
which  I  addressed  to  E.  H.  Kellogg  on  the  14th  of  December,  I  received 
the  following  reply : 

E.  H.  KELLOGG, 
DEPUTY  U.  S.  MINERAL  AND  LAND  SURVEYOR. 

Denver,  CoL,  Dec.  15,  1879. 
Gov.  F.  W.  PITKIN: 

SIR  :  In  reply  to  your  note  of  yesterday  inquiring  as  to  location  of  the  east  boundary 
of  the  Ute  Reservation  through  the  Gunnison  and  Elk  Mountain  mining  country,  I 
would  say,  that  the  surveyors  employed  on  that  line  were  compelled  by  the  roughness 
of  the  mountains  to  carry  it  over  this  region  by  triangulation,  no  monuments  or  other 
marks  being  set  between  the  Gunuison  and  Grande  Rivers,  and  it  is  just  in  this  part 
that  the  mining  camps  are  located.  In  the  absence  of  landmarks  or  reliable  informa 
tion,  the  best  that  could  be  done  was  to  approximate  the  location  of  the  line.  The 
first  discoverers  in  the  Ruby  district  knew  they  must  be  very  near  the  line,  but  fully 
believed  themselves  off  the  reservation,  and  during  the  summer  have  been  confirmed 
in  this  belief  by  repeated  assurances  irona  the  Indians  themselves  that  "  it  was  all  right 
to  dig  on  this  (the  east)  side  the  big  mountain,  but  they  must  not  go  beyond  it."  This 
was  the  substance  of  the  talk  at  an  interview  with  six  or  eight  Uncompahgre  Utes,  at 
which  I  was  present  (the  conversation  being  carried  on  in  Spanish,  with  which  I  am 
familiar).  The  same  remark  was  made  to  me  by  "Big  Jim,"  a  White  River  Ute,  who 
camped  with  me  one  night  on  his  way  south.  Several  times  during  the  summer  the 
camp  has  been  visited  by  traveling  parties  of  Indians,  who  passed  about  among  the 
miners  in  the  most  friendly  manner,  giving  a  distinct  impression  that  they  did  not 
consider  us  as  trespassers.  I  am  positive  that  no  attempt  was  made  to  pass  the  limit 
thus  pointed  out  by  the  Indians,  in  this  particular  locality,  and  as  far  as  I  know,  Ruby 
is  the  most  aggressive  camp  on  the  border. 

As  to  the  actual  location  of  the  line,  my  information  is  inferential  only.  Some  years 
ago  I  found  the  line  in  Antelope  Park,  about  one  mile  east  of  the  mouth  of  Clear  Creek, 
and  monuments  have  been  described  to  me  on  White  Earth,  Gunnison,  and  Grande 
Rivers,  which  seem  to  be  on  a  fairly  straight  north  and  south  line,  and  all  between 
five  and  six  miles  west  of  the  astronomical  location  of  the  107th  meridian.  This  line 
produced  across  the  region  in  question  certainly  leaves  the  town  of  Irwin  and  most  of 
the  mines  off  the  reservation.  Whatever  locations  may  be  west  of  this  line  have  been 
ignorantly  and  not  willfully  made. 

In  justice  to  the  miners  of  the  Elk  Mountains,  I  beg  to  say  that  I  have  never  known 
a  more  temperate,  industrious,  or  law-abiding  class  of  men  'in  any  mining  community, 
and  I  do  not  believe  that  there  has  been  a  single  instance  of  knowing  encroachment 
on  Indian  Territory. 

Very  respectfully,  vour  obedient  servant, 

E.  H.  KELLOGG. 

This  is  a  very  rugged  country  all  over  here  (pointing  to  the  Elk 
mountain  country  on  the  map)  and  the  Elk  mountains  run  from  north 
west  to  southeast  and  are  very  high.  I  have  never  been  there,  but  I 
think  they  are  from  thirteen  to  fourteen  thousand  feet  high  above  the 
timber  line,  where  it  would  be  impossible  to  run  any  chains  or  anything 
of  that  kind,  and  there  are  no  monuments  set  except  those  that  are  in 
this  place  (indicating  on  the  map)".  I  have  also  a  letter  here  from  the 
other  mineral  surveyor,  Mr.  Swindler,  dated  December  27  : 

Denver,  December  27,  1879. 
Hon.  F.  W.  PITKIN, 

Governor  State  of  Colorado : 

SIR  :  Learning  that  the  late  outbreak  of  the  Ute  Indians  has  been  laid  to  the  alleged 
encroachments  of  prospectors  npon  their  reservation,  and  having  resided  at  the  town 
of  Irwin,  otherwise  known  as  Ruby  Camp,  previous  to  and  during  their  depredation, 
and  believing  a  letter  addressed  to  you  stating  the  facts  as  I  know  them  might  be  a 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  119 

straw  in  tbe  weight  of  evidence  against  this  misrepresentation  that  has  gone  abroad, 
I  have  written  this  communication.  I  surveyed  the  town-site  and  numerous  claims 
adjacent  thereto.  During  my  residence  there  and  since,  I  have  taken  particular  pains 
to  look  up  tbe  location  of  the  boundary-line,  and  I  know  that  Irwin  lies  east  of  their 
territory.  Two  parties  of  Indians  passed  through  our  camp,  one  previous  to,  and  the 
other  after,  the  commencement  of  the  White  River  outrage.  On  both  occasions  the 
Utes  were  quite  friendly  and  nothing  was  said  about  our  being  on  their  ground,  as 
they  claim  the  Ruby  Peaks  about  one  mile  west  of  the  outskirts  of  the  camp  as  their 
eastern  boundary,  so  that  according  to  tbe  testimony  of  the  Indians  themselves  the 
miners  were  not  on  their  domain  nor  were  they  in  any  manner  responsible  for  the 
White  River  massacre. 

I  know  of  no  mining  camp  which  is  claimed  by  the  whites  or  Indians  to  be  on  other 
than  United  States  government  land. 
Verv  respectfully,  yours, 

F.  P.  SWINDLER, 
United  States  Deputy  Surveyor. 

I  have  had  constant  intercourse  with  people  from  those  frontier  camps 
during  the  past  year,  both  personally  and  by  letter,  and  the  testimony 
has  been  uniform  that  the  miners  have  desired  to  keep  off  the  reserva 
tion  ;  that  they  have  desired  to  locate  their  mines  off  it,  and  no  one,  so 
far  as  I  know,  believes  that  any  mining  camp  is  located  on  the  reserva 
tion.  The  fact  that  Jack  in  his  interview  with  me  in  Denver  did  not 
claim  that  any  mining  camp  was  on  tbe  reservation,  and  that  no  such 
claim  was  ever  heard  by  the  agents  or  other  parties,  satisfies  me  fully 
that  this  camp,  which  is  the  only  one  in  question,  so  far  as  1  know,  is 
about  a  mile  east  of  the  reservation. 

By  Mr.  GUNTER  : 

Q.  You  say  there  was  no  camp  of  miners  upon  the  reservation  ?  Have 
you  heard  of  any  parties  prospecting  or  going  across  the  reservation  for 
that  purpose? — A.  I  have  heard,  in  a  general  way,  that  miners  have 
crossed  the  line  and  wandered  about  on  it,  and  I  have  no  doubt  that  a 
considerable  number  of  miners  have  wandered  over  the  line.  This  res 
ervation  is  about  the  size  of  the  States  of  Massachusetts  and  Vermont 
combined,  and  there  were  only  three  bands  of  Indians,  amounting  in  all 
to  about  three  thousand  persons,  that  occupied  it,  one  located  at  White 
Eiver,  another  at  Los  Pinos,  and  a  third  in  the  extreme  south  of  La 
Plata  County.  Now,  supposing  Vermont  and  Massachusetts  were  the 
reservation,  I  cannot  conceive  of  Rhode  Island,  Connecticut,  and  New 
York  being  inhabited  by  any  class  of  population  that  I  have  ever  heard 
of,  that  would  not  wander  over  across  the  line  and  look  around.  Es 
pecially  if,  as  in  this  case,  it  were  not  fenced  for  so  large  a  part  of  the 
distance,  and  there  were  no  monuments  by  which  the  boundaries  could 
be  marked.  I  have  no  doubt  that  our  miners  have  wandered  over  there 
more  or  less,  but  I  have  no  idea  that  the  Indians  have  seen  them. 
Miners  look  for  mines  in  the  tops  of  the  highest  mountains.  Some  of 
the  best  mines  in  Colorado  are  found  in  the  mountains  from  10,000  to 
14,000  feet  high.  The  Indians,  as  a  general  thing,  are  an  indolent  class, 
and  in  going  from  the  White  Eiver  to  the  Uncompahgre  Agency  they 
would  not  go  up  to  the  tops  of  the  highest  mountains  to  look  for  miners  j 
they  would  take  the  regular  route,  where  there  was  game. 

Q.  You  say  that  Jack  made  no  complaint  in  regaad  to  settlers  or  miners 
going  on  the  reservation  ;  did  you  hear  any  other  complaints  from  other 
Indians  as  to  the  prospecting  of  the  miners? — A.  I  have  never  in  my  life 
heard  a  complaint  by  an  Indian,  or  of  a  complaint  having  been  made  by 
an  Indian,  of  any  mining  camps  being  on  the  reservation,  or  of  pros 
pectors  going  on.  I  asked  Jack,  as  I  stated  yesterday,  if  he  would  not 
permit  the  miners  to  prospect  between  the  Guunisou  and  the  Grand 
Rivers,  in  the  Elk  Mountains,  and  he  gave  the  answer  that  I  have  testified 


120  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

to.  So  the  fact  was  called  to  his  attention  and  he  never  gave  any  indica 
tion  that  any  miners  were  in  there.  There  are  two  couclusive'reasons  why 
last  season  the  miners  would  not  establish  camps  there.  In  the  first  place, 
if  a  miner  finds  a  mine  he  wants  one  that  he  can  sell,  or  in  the  possession  of 
which  he  can  be  protected.  A  mine  discovered  on  the  Ute  Reservation 
by  a  white  man  would  be  absolutely  worthless  to  him,  because  he  could 
not  get  a  patent,  nor  be  protected  by  any  law,  but  would  be  certain  to 
be  driven  off  in  case  of  complaint.  If  a  miner  discovered  a  valuable 
mine  on  that  reservation,  what  he  would  do  would  be  to  hide  it  and  con 
ceal  the  fact  of  its  existence,  hoping  that  the  day  would  come  when  that 
country  would  be  thrown  open  to  settlers  so  that  he  could  go  in  and  stake 
his  mine  and  work  it.  The  second  reason  is  that  our  people  are  afraid 
that  the  Indians  would  kill  them  on  the  reservation  if  they  should  be 
found  working  there.  I  have  been  told  by  a  large  number  of  persons 
at  different  times  during  this  past  year  that  the  Indians  have  come 
through  the  town  of  Irwin  and  have  pointed  to  Ruby  Peak,  a  mile  west 
of  the  town,  and  said,  "That  peak  is  the  boundary  ;  this  side  (pointing 
to  the  east)  white  man's  ground ;  other  side  Indians'  ground.  You  go 
over  there  and  we  will  kill  you  ;  "  and  these  white  people  have  told  me 
that  the  Indians  always  made  the  same  gesture,  indicating  that  they 
would  cut  their  throats. 

By  Mr.  WADDILL  : 

Q.  Have  any  of  those  Indians  ever  worked  the  mines  ? — A.  No,  sir; 
I  never  heard  of  any  Indian  working  a  mine. 

Q.  That  miners'  region  where  the  minerals  are,  is  it  of  any  use  to  the 
Indians?  Does  it  contain  pasture  land  or  tillable  land? — A.  No,  sir  ; 
it  has  more  or  less  snow  on  it  three-fourths  of  the  year.  The  country 
farther  west  has  game  in  it,  but  I  cannot  conceive  of  any  possible  use 
that  this  mountain  region  can  be  to  the  Indians.  The  mountains  are 
very  high,  extending  away  above  the  point  where  timber  will  grow,  and 
the  peaks  are  covered  with  snow  during  a  large  portion  of  the  year.  I 
have  never  actually  been  at  that  place,  but  I  am  familiar  with  the 
mountains  through  the  main  range,  and  my  opinion  is  that  there  is 
never  a  time  in  the  year  when  there  is  not  snow  on  these  mountains. 

Q.  What  I  want  to  get  at  is,  what  injury  it  would  be  to  the  Indians 
if  the  miners  should  go  over  on  to  that  territory — whether  the  trespass 
ers  would  do  them  any  considerable  damage  ! — A.  Why,  it  could  not 
possibly  do  them  any  damage. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  Except  to  the  extent  of  the  value  of  the  ore  that 
might  be  taken  out. 

The  WITNESS.  I  never  have  heard  of  any  Indian  taking  out  a  pound 
of  ore  in  that  State. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  They  might  claim  that  they  could  sell  it,  though. 

The  WITNESS.  I  pass  now  to  another  point.  A  large  number  of  citi 
zens  of  the  State  of  Colorado  had  been  murdered  by  the  Indians.  Be 
fore  making  a  statement  of  the  cases  that  have  come  to  my  knowledge, 
I  will  say  to  the  committee  that  I  am  compelled  to  make  this  statement 
as  a  matter  of  common  notoriety  of  which  I  have  no  personal  knowl 
edge;  I  simply  know  the  facts  just  as  I  know  of  the  Tboruburgh  fight. 
Other  witnesses,  however,  who  have  been  subpoenaed  will  be  here  in  a 
few  days,  and  will  be  able  to  give  the  committee  more  explicit  informa 
tion  on  this  point.  In  July,  1859,  a  Dr.  Shanks  and  Dr.  Kennedy,  who 
were  on  the  South  Fork  of  Clear  Creek,  a  short  distance  from  where 
Georgetown  is  now  located,  were  both  killed ;  a  third  person  by  the 
name  of  Slaughter,  who  was  with  them,  escaped.  In  August,  1850,  a 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  121 

party  of  seven  persons  were  killed  in  a  gulch  tributary  to  the  Gunnison 
Eiver,  and  another  person  who  was  with  them  escaped  by  hiding  in  the 
bushes  until  night  came.  In  the  summer  of  1872,  in  the  North  Park, 
eleven  miners  were  killed  and  their  property  was  found  in  possession  of 
Colorow's  band,  and  money  taken  from  the  murdered  men  was  spent  by 
this  party  in  Denver.  In  1873,  in  the  valley  of  the  Gucharis,  near  where 
the  town  of  La  Veta  is  now  situated,  one  William  Potts  and  either  four 
or  five  parties  with  him  were  murdered.  This  place  was  over  100 
miles  from  the  reservation.  In  September,  1878,  a  man  named  Elliot 
was  killed  in  the  Middle  Park.  The  party  that  killed  him  was  composed 
of  Uncompahgres  and  White  Kiver  Utes.  They -were  pursued  by  the 
officers  of  the  State,  and  they  broke  up,  one  party  going  to  the  White 
Eiver  and  the  other  going  to  the  Uncouipahgre  Agency.  Pioh  and  Wass 
were  two  of  the  Indians  belonging  to  the  party  that  committed  the 
murder.  A  man  named  McLean,  a  ranchman,  was  killed  in  Bent 
County ;  he  rode  off  into  this  band  composed  of  both  White  River  and  Un- 
cornpaligre  Indians  and  never  was  seen  afterwards.  He  had  a  brother 
who  was  engaged  with  him  in  the  stock  business.  Both  of  them  were 
accomplished  men,  and  men  of  quite  large  means.  As  soon  as  Mr.  Mc 
Lean  was  missed  the  stock  men  started  out  and  followed  the  track  of 
his  horse  to  where  these  Indians  were  camped,  and  found  where  the 
horse  had  suddenly  shied  and  run  around  in  various  directions,  crossing 
his  own  tracks;  and  subsequently  they  found  the  horse  several  miles 
away  from  the  place.  As  soon  as  McLean  was  killed  the  Indians  broke 
up  into  small  bands,  some  of  them  going  home  in  this  way  and  some  in 
that ;  one  of  the  bauds  went  through  Middle  Park,  and  some  of  them 
went  through  other  counties ;  and  the  large  baud  had  entirely  broken 
up  before  any  demonstration  was  made  by  the  whites  and  started  home. 
And  it  was  one  of  those  bands  that  killed  Mr.  Elliott.  Doctor  McDon 
ald,  who  was  at  that  time  the  surgeon  at  the  Los  Pinos  Agency,  informed 
me  at  the  agency  shortly  after  they  returned  that  he  was  satisfied  that 
Pioh,  an  Uncompahgre  Indian,  was  guilty  of  one  of  the  murders.  He 
said  that  when  Pioh  returned  he  asked  him  (Dr.  McDonald)  what  the 
news  was  and  asked  him  to  read  the  papers  to  him.  The  Doctor  told 
him  there  was  no  news  of  any  importance ;  but  Piah  said,  "  If  you  read 
me  what  the  papers  say,  I  won't  tell  anybody  "  ;  and  altogether  the  Doc 
tor  was  satisfied  from  his  conduct  that  he  was  guilty. 

By  Mr.  WHITE AKER  : 

Q.  Did  I  understand  you  to  say  that  the  remains  of  this  lost  man  that 
you  have  spoken  of  were  found  f — A.  McLean's  remains  never  have  been 
found. 

Q.  Was  the  horse  dead  when  it  was  found! — A.  No,  sir;  but  rider 
less. 

Q.  WTith  the  saddle  on  him  ? — -A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  Not  wounded  in  any  way  ? — A.  Not  wounded  in  any  way.  The 
brother  of  Mr.  McLean,  who  has  spent  a  great  deal  of  money  hunting 
for  the  remains,  went  into  the  Los  Pinos  Agency  last  fall  with  General 
Hatch,  and  he  had  not  been  in  camp  but  a  short  time  when  there  was  a 
great  agitation  among  the  Indians,  and  they  made  it  known  that  they 
wished  this  man  McLean  to  leave.  They  recognized  him.  The  Indians 
have  wandered. so  much  through  the  State  that  they  know  a  very  large 
number  of  the  citizens  in  different  localities,  and  1  am  told  that  it  is  a 
peculiarity  of  the  Indians  that  if  they  once  see  a  face  they  remember  it 
and  know  where  the  man  lives.  In  this  case  they  recognized  Mr.  Mc 
Lean  and  insisted  that  he  should  leave,  And  General  Hatch  told  him 


122  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

that  he  had  better  do  so,  and  he  did  leave  the  agency.  These  murders 
that  I  have  referred  to  so  far  are  twenty-seven  in  number.  Then  a  man 
named  Marksberry  was  killed  in  El  Paso  County  in  the  spring  of  1875. 

By  Mr.  AINSLEE  : 

Q.  Had  the  Indians'  title  to  any  portion  of  those  lands  been  extin 
guished  in  1859  ? 

Senator  TELLER.  The  title  of  the  land  where  Central  City  stands  was 
extinguished  on  the  18th  of  February,  1859,  as  I  recollect.  But  that  was 
never  recognized  as  belonging  to  the  Cites;  it  belonged  to  the  Cheyennes 
and  the  Arapahoes.  All  that  Denver  country  came  from  that  treaty. 

The  WITNESS.  At  different  times  there  have  been  found  in  the  moun 
tains  the  bodies  of  white  men  ;  one  was  found  with  an  arrow  embedded 
in  the  bones  of  the  neck,  and  the  people  of  the  State  generally  believe 
that  these  are  the  bodies  of  persons  who  have  gone  out  prospecting  and 
never  returned,  having  been  murdered  by  the  Indians.  In  1878  two 
brothers  named  Green  were  killed  on  the  road  between  Ouray  and 
Utah.  There  is  a  mail  route  there,  and  they  were  killed  somewhere  near 
the  mouth  of  Grand  River.  This  year  there  were  nine  employes  at  the 
White  River  Agency  killed  at  the  time  of  the  massacre ;  also,  a  man 
named  Goldstein,  a  peddler,  was  killed  ;  also,  a  man  named  Gordon,  and 
two  of  his  teamsters,  a  man  named  Eskridge,  and  Mr.  Laurie,  who  has 
been  alluded  to  in  the  letter  which  I  have  read  from  Mr.  John  Adams, 
and  who  had  been  acting  as  a  scout.  These  were  citizens  of  the  State. 
Aside  from  these  men,  bodies  have  been  found  and  have  been  indentified. 
I  have  referred  here  to  forty-five  citizens  of  the  State  that  have  been 
killed  by  the  Indians,  and  I  know  that  the  list  is  not  complete,  because 
the  first  part  of  the  list  of  names  that  I  have  read  was  handed  to  me  by 
a  gentleman  in  Denver,  and,  being  somewhat  familiar  with  the  cases  gen 
erally,  I  at  once  discovered  that  he  had  omitted  five  or  six. 

By  Mr.  GUNTER  : 

Q.  I  understand  you  to  say  that  all  these  murders  that  you  have 
enumerated,  with  the  exception  of  those  at  the  agency,  were  committed 
in  the  State  of  Colorado  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  and  all  of  the  murdered  per 
sons  were,  I  believe,  citizens  of  Colorado,  and  they  were  killed  by  the 
Utes. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  provocation  given  for  the  killing  of  those 
persons,  or  were  all  these,  as  you  understand,  unprovoked  murders  ? — 
A.  I  understand  that  all  of  them  were  unprovoked  murders  excepting 
the  murder  of  Marksbury,  according  to  what  the  Indians  claim.  After 
he  was  killed  they  claimed  that  he  was  making  a  movement  as  though 
he  were  going  to 'kill  an  Indian,  and  that  the  Indians  shot  him  in  self- 
defence;  but,  as  I  understand  the  circumstances,  Marksbury  was  there 
alone  and  there  was  quite  a  number  of  Indians  present,  and  their  tes 
timony  of  course  is  to  be  taken  for  what  it  is  worth.  The  murderers  of 
Marksbury  were  the  only  ones  that  have  been  arrested  to  my  knowledge. 
They  were  arrested  and  examined  before  the  United  States  commissioner, 
and  on  the  testimony  there  produced,  which  was  the  testimony  of  the 
Indians  who  were  present  at  the  killing,  the  accused  were  discharged. 

Mr.  GUNTER.  I  asked  that  question  for  this  reason :  it  frequently 
happens  that  the  Indians  come  across  the  line,  get  to  drinking  with  the 
white  people,  who  are  sometimes  no  better  than  they,  and  get  into 
personal  difficulties,  and  sometimes  they  kill  the  whites  and  sometimes 
they  get  killed,  and  I  thought  that  some  of  these  might  have  been  cases 
of  that  kind. 

The  WITNESS.  No,  sir;  these  cases  are  nearly  all  cases  of  miners, 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  123 

who  were  at  work  in  tbeir  mines,  and  were  all  massacred.  In  one  or 
two  instances  some  of  them  escaped  by  hiding  in  the  bush.  Now,  I 
have  never  heard  of  but  one  Ute  Indian  being  killed  by  white  men 
in  the  State  of  Colorado,  except  those  who  were  killed  by  the  troops 
in  the  Thornburgh  fight.  That  Indian  was  killed  by  the  survivor  of 
one  of  the  parties  that  I  have  before  alluded  to  that  was  murdered. 
This  man  escaped;  and  this  Indian  he  believed  was  one  of  the  at 
tacking  party.  There  had  been  bad  feeling  between  them,  and  the 
Indian  was  riding  toward  the  white  man  with  his  hand  on  his  rifle, 
and  the  man  who  shot  him  claimed  that  he  believed  his  life  to  be  in 
danger,  and  he  fired  first.  I  have  never  heard  that  the  Indians  ever 
claimed  that  more  than  that  one  IJte  Indian  has  ever  been  killed  by  a 
white  man  in  the  State  of  Colorado.  There  has  been  a  common  under 
standing  among  the  settlers  bordering  upon  the  reservation  that  what 
ever  the  indignities  practiced  upon  them  by  the  Indians  they  would  not 
resent  them  to  the  extent  of  shooting  an  Indian.  The  settlers  have  un 
derstood  that  if  an  Indian  is  shot  the  Indians  immediately  wreak  ven 
geance  on  the  first  white  man  that  they  come  across,  or  upon  the  com 
munities  that  it  is  most  easy  for  them  to  reach.  Tbis  man  Elliot,  for 
instance,  was  killed  immediately  after  the  Indian  was  killed  th.it!  have 
referred  to.  The  white  man  killed  an  Indian  ;  the  Indians  were  on  their 
way  to  the  reservation,  and  Elliot  was  working  in  front  of  his  house  en 
tirely  alone,  and  the  party  came  along  and  shot  him  and  went  on.  His 
death  is  supposed  to  have  been  provoked  by  the  previous  killing  of  the 
Indian.  Therefore  the  settlers  in  these  sparsely  settled  places  bordering 
upon  the  reservation  throughout  the  whole  length  of  it,  from  Wyoming 
to  New  Mexico,  have  refrained  from  injuring  the  Indians  in  any  way, 
because  they  knew  that  if  settlers  anywhere  began  to  shoot  Indians  the 
lives  ot  white  settlers  everywhere  were  endangered.  And  that  is  the 
reason  why  more  Indians  have  not  been  killed  in  the  State. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN: 

Q.  What  is  the  general  character  of  these  Indians  in  their  treatment  of 
the  whites?  Are  they  hostile  to  them  or  friendly?  Have  they  the  char 
acter  of  never  having  injured  the  white  people  in  that  way,  and  do  they 
boast  themselves  that  they  have  never  injured  any  white  men  ? — A.  In 
their  dealings  with  the  whites  the  Los  Pinos  Utes  have  generally  been 
civil.  They  are  Southern  Utes.  They  have  been  generally  friendly  to 
the  whites,  and  the  whites  have  generally  been  friendly  to  them.  The 
whites  have  understood  that  when  they  come  along  that  their  ponies 
can  graze  anywhere;  they  never  pay  any  fare  on  toll-roads;  they  ask  peo 
ple  to  give  them  food  and  things  of  that  kind ;  and  I  think  it  is  the  in 
variable  custom  to  do  so — to  give  it  to  them.  They  have  turned  ponies 
into  meadows,  and  complaints  have  been  made  at  various  times  that 
they  have  stolen  horses;  but  their  conduct  towards  the  whites  has  been  as 
friendly  as  you  could  expect  from  Indians  who  are  wandering  about  lead 
ing  a  vagabond  life  all  over  the  State.  The  conduct  of  the  White  Eiver 
Utes  has  been  quite  different.  The  whites  have  not  been  friendly  to 
them,  and  they  have  not  felt  friendly  to  the  whites..  The  white  settlers, 
however,  have  been  so  scattered  that  they  have  done  about  as  the  In 
dians  wanted.  The  women  cooked  their  victuals,  and  they  would  order 
the  women  to  go  and  draw  water  from  the  wells,  order  them  about  as 
they  would  their  own  squaws,  and  the  people  have  been  compelled  to 
submit  to  it,  because  the  settlements  were  so  sparse  that  they  could  not 
help  it.  These  are  the  relations  that  have  existed,  as  I  understand 
them.  They  have  been  semi-friendly  ;  the  Indians  have  not  been  gen 
erally  killing  people. 


124     .  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

Q.  Is  the  intercourse  between  the  whites  and  the  Southern  Utes  free 
and  friendly? — A.  I  do  not  think  the  people  of  the  State  like  an  In- 
dian. 

Q.  Are  they  afraid  of  them  ?— A.  I  think  the  great  mass  of  the  people 
of  the  State  have  a  sort  of  chill  run  over  them  when  they  come  in  con 
tact  with  them,  except  in  places  with  some  population.  They  are  a  dan 
gerous  looking  people,  their  style  of  dress  and  their  demeanor,  and  the 
fact  that  they  do  not  talk  much  makes  the  white  people  generally 
afraid  of  an  Indian.  I  confess  that  has  been  always  my  feeling  since  I 
have  known  them. 

Q.  Do  not  the  white  people  and  these  Southern  Utes  mingle  freely 
without  fear  and  have  dealings  with  each  other  without  the  ex 
pression  of  fear  on  either  side? — A.  You  mean  prior  to  the  Thornburgh 
massacre  ? 

Q.  Yes.— A.  They  have  regarded  them  as  friendly  Indians.  In  large 
places  they  looked  upon  them  as  curiosities;  in  small  places  where  there 
are  very  few  people  they  have  never  wanted  them  around,  and  they  al 
ways  were  very  much  relieved  when  they  went  away  ;  and  as  a  general 
thing  the  people  in  sparsely  settled  places,  except  the  oldest  settlers, 
have  always  been  fearful  when  they  have  been  around. 

Q.  Has  there  ever  been  any  serious  outbreak  prior  to  this  massacre  of 
Thornburgh  on  the  part  of  anj  of  these  Indians  ? — A.  There  has  been 
none  except  what  I  have  heretofore  detailed — the  murders  of  miners  at 
different  times. 

Q.  But  I  mean  an  open  outbreak— actual  hostility  ?— A.  No  rebel 
lion  against  the  government.  They  have  committed  these  murders  at 
various  times  and  have,  so  far  as  I  know,  gone  unpunished,  every  one  of 
them. 

Q.  But  this  is  the  first  open  act  of  hostility  you  have  ever  known  on 
the  part  of  any  of  them  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  so  far  as  I  know,  the  general 
government  has  never  taken  any  steps  to  punish  any  of  these  Indians 
who  have  committed  these  murders;  not  one  of  them  has  ever  been  pun 
ished,  so  far  as  I  know.  The  State  forces  started  for  the  murderers  of 
Elliot.  The  sheriff  of  Arapahoe  County  started  with  some  military  to 
find  them,  but  they  struck  up  through  the  mountains  and  got  beyond  the 
reservation  and  there  the  pursuit  stopped  ;  but  in  the  cases  of  the  others 
I  know  of  no  efforts  made  to  punish  them. 

By  Mr.  GUNTER  : 

Q.  You  indicate  that  there  is  rather  a  bad  feeling  on  the  part  of  the 
whites  towards  the  Indians.  Is  there  not  a  very  strong  desire  upon  the 
part  of  your  people  that  those  Utes  should  be  removed  away  from  their 
border? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  will  explain  that  now,  with  the  consent  of  the 
committee.  As  soon  as  the  news  reached  the  whites  of  the  attack  on 
Tbornburgh's  command,  the  whole  country,  50  to  100  miles  wide,  border 
ing  on  the  reservation,  from  Wyoming  to  New  Mexico,  was  completely 
panic  stricken.  There  were  appeals  made  tome  for  troops  or  arms  from 
various  places  in  Routt  County,  from  the  North  Park,  from  the  Middle 
Park;  most  earnest  appeals  from  the  Eagle  Eiver,  from  the  Roaring 
Fork,  from  nearly  every  town  in  Chaffee  County,  although  there  was 
a  mountain  range  running  between  them  and  the  reservation,  and  quite 
a  portion  of  Guunison  County,  which  would  be  some  kind  of  a  protection 
from  any  meditated  attack.  Appeals  for  arms  or  for  troops  came  to  me 
also  from  Crested  Butte,  from  Gothic  City,  Irwin,  Gunnison,  Hillerton, 
Virginia  City,  Lake  City,  the  town  of  Ouray,  San  Miguel,  Rico,  Ani- 
mas  City,  Silverton,  and  even  the  town  of  Alamosa,  which  is  situated,  I 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  125 

tbiuk,  100  miles  from  the  nearest  corner  of  the  reservation,  and  from 
Silver  Cliff,  a  large  town  with  five  or  six  thousand  population.  All  these 
places,  and  others  which  do  not  occur  to  me  now,  appealed  to  me  for  aid. 
The  feeling  was  entirely  different  from  what  it  would  be  in  case  of  a 
fight  with  a  civilized  foe.  The  people  felt  that  these  Indians  were  in 
side  of  aline  in  which  there  were  no  white  men,  and  as  they  had  been 
wandering  freely  all  over  the  State  for  so  many  years,  each  place  felt 
as  if  it  was  on  the  regular  trail  of  the  Indians,  and  would  bs  the  first 
attacked,  and  the  appeals  were  almost  all  of  a  stereotyped  kind,  whether 
the  places  from  which  they  came  were  near  the  reservation  or  remote 
from  it — that  the  people  feared  that  the  Indians  would  ride  a  long  dis 
tance  in  the  night,  attack  the  settlement,  massacre  the  men,  and  reserve 
the  women  as  captives. 

Q.  Then  you  do  understand  that  there  is  a  strong  desire  on  the  part 
of  your  people  ail  along  the  borders  to  have  the  Indians  removed  ? — A. 
Yes,  sir;  they  feel  even  now,  after  the  panic  has  subsided,  that  war  is 
inevitable  in  the  spring  if  the  Indians  are  left  in  the  State. 

Q.  Did  not  that  feeling  exist  before  the  massacre,  and  if  so,  for  how 
long  a  time? — A.  No,  sir;  I  do  not  think  there  was  any  feeling  before 
that  there  was  going  to  be  a  war. 

Q.  But  before  the  massacre  there  was  a  strong  desire  to  have  the  In 
dians  removed,  was  there  not? — A.  Before  the  massacre  there  was  a 
general  feeling  that  the  Indians  were  occupying  very  valuable  mineral 
laud  which  was  of  no  use  to  them,  and  which  the  poor  men  of  the  coun 
try  now  living  in  Colorado,  and  constantly  coming  in  there,  should  have 
the  right  to  enter  upon  and  use.  For  example,  the  city  of  Leadville, 
which  has  now  a  population  of  about  40,000,  is  only  about  35  miles  east 
of  the  reservation,  and  the  mineral  belt  extends  up  to  the  reservation, 
and,  as  the  white  people  believe,  extends  into  it.  Now  there  are  probably 
20,000  laboring  men  employed  working  the  mines  in  and  around  Lead 
ville;  the  market  value  of  the  mines  thereat  the  present  time  is  from  fifty 
one  hundred  millions  of  dollars.  All  this  is  substantially  a  creation  of 
that  amount  of  wealth  within  the  last  two  or  three  years;  which  is,  of 
course,  a  benefit  not  only  to  the  people  directly  interested,  but  indirectly 
to  the  country  at  large ;  and  our  people  say  that  if  the  ground  on  which 
Leadville  stands  had  happened  to  be  on  the  reservation,  it  would  have 
been  a  crime  against  the  neighboring  people  of  this  country  to  have  kept 
the  white  men  off  it  in  order  that  the  Indians  might  roam  and  hunt  over 
it,  or  rather  that  they  might  make  no  use  whatever  of  it,  and  it  would 
have  been  a  crime  to  have  kept  our  people  who  are  endeavoring  to  make 
their  way  in  the  world  out  of  that  rich  region. 

The  apprehension  of  danger  exists  to-day  throughout  these  places  in  our 
State,  whether  near  the  reservation  or  some  distance  away  from  it.  With 
in  a  few  days  previous  to  my  starting  from  Denver,  I  had  appeals  to  send 
a  military  company  into  Routt  County.  The  sheriff  of  Grand  County, 
Eugene  Marker,  who  lives  at  Hot  Sulphur  Springs,  in  the  Middle  Park, 
came  to  my  office  for  arms  to  equip  troops.  He  said  that  the  people 
there  were  fully  satisfied  that  the  Indians  would  attack  them  in  the 
spring.  I  also  had  appeals  from  Gothic  City  for  a  military  company  or 
for  arms,  and  the  same  from  Eico,  and  since  I  have  been  here  I  have 
received  a  letter  from  a  leading  citizari  of  Ouray,  in  which  he  states 
that  unless  I  relieve  them  there  shortly  he  believes  they  will  all  be  mur 
dered  before  spring.  Now,  on  account  of  the  intervening  mountains 
these  towns  of  Ouray,  San  Miguel,  and  the  neighboring  mining  camps 
can  only  be  reached  by  a  wagon  road  which  starts  on  the  eastern  part  of 
the  reservation  and  runs  north  of  the  mountains  past  the  Los  Pinos 


126  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

Agency  and  down  to  Ouray.  Nearly  the  whole  fighting  force  of  the 
Ute  tribe  is  at  LosPiuos,  I  understand,  and  there  is  no  way  that  we  can 
possibly  get  troops  or  guns  or  ammunition  through  except  by  sending 
them  through  to  these  towns  70  miles  over  the  reservation.  Koads 
might  be  made  over  the  mountains  which  would  be  available  for  some 
months  in  summer,  but  as  long  as  the  snow  falls  they  will  become  im 
passable  ;  so  that  if  those  towns  are  really  in  danger,  it  is  impossible 
to  relieve  them  except  by  sending  a  force  sufficiently  large  to  fight  the 
the  entire  Ute  tribe  at  Los  Pinos.  If  it  was  in  the  summer  season,  I 
could  send  troops  and  arms  over  the  mountains,  but  it  is  impossible  to 
do  that  in  winter.  This  condition  of  affairs  must  continue  as  long  as 
this  reservation  is  preserved. 

By  Mr.  AINSLEE  : 

Q.  You  say  the  Indians  have  never  complained  of  any  depredations 
on  their  reservation  by  miners  or  prospectors.  Have  they  ever  com 
plained  of  cattle-men  allowing  their  cattle  to  range  on  the  reservation  ? 
—A.  I  have  never  heard  of  any  complaints  which  they  have  made,  but 
I  have  no  doubt  but  that  some  of  them  have  wandered  on  the  reserva 
tion  ;  indeed,  it  would  be  impossible  to  keep  them  off. 

Adjourned. 


WASHINGTON,  January  31,  1880. 

FREDERICK  W.  PITKIN  recalled  and  further  examined. 

TheWiTNESS.  In  stating  yesterday  that  there  were  no  mining  camps 
on  the  reservation,  I  meant  at  the  time  of  this  outbreak.  I  do  not  know 
of  one  mining  camp  that  there  has  ever  been  on  the  reservation.  About 
three  years  ago  the  miners  thought  they  discovered  a  valuable  gold 
claim  between  the  town  of  Ouray  and  the  Los  Pinos  Agency,  where 
Ouray  lives,  and  they  flocked  in  in  large  numbers.  It  was  a  placer 
claim,  where  they  washed  the  gold  out  of  the  sand.  Ouray  was  aware  of 
the  fact  and  said  that  he  had  no  objection  to  their  staying  there  :  and  it 
was  generally  so  understood,  that  he  had  no  objection  to  their  making 
their  experiments ;  that  he  did  not  think  they  would  find  gold,  but  he 
did  not  want  them  to  build  any  houses  ;  and  they  remained  with  Ou- 
ray's  consent  until  themselves  satisfied  that  there  was  no  gold,  and 
then  left.  But  that  was,  as  I  understood,  entirely  satisfactory  to  the 
Indians,  and  could  have  had  no  possible  connection  with  this  outbreak. 
With  reference  to  the  alarm  felt  by  the  settlers  for  quite  a  distance 
from  the  reservation,  I  wish  to  say,  in  addition  to  what  I  said  yesterday, 
that  I  ordered  a  military  company  to  proceed  from  Saguache  to  Lake 
City,  Saguache  being,  I  think,  nearly  one  hundred  miles  from  the  near 
est  point  on  the  reservation ;  the  reports  from  Lake  City  being  very 
alarming,  I  ordered  that  company  to  go  there,  unless  there  was  danger 
at  home.  They  held  a  public  meeting  of  the  citizens  at  Saguache,  and 
they  decided  that  there  was  danger  at  that  place,  and  were  unwilling 
to  have  their  military  company  leave  to  go  to  the  defense  of  the  settlers 
at  Lake  City. 

By  Mr.  POEHLER  : 

Q.  How  near  is  Lake  City  to  the  reservation  ? — A.  It  is  about  eighteen 
miles  south  of  the  reservation.  Our  people  are  not  afraid  to  meet  the 
Indians  and  to  fight  the  contest  out  with  them,  but  the  bravest  men, 
men  who  fought  in  the  Federal  or  the  Confederate  Army  during  the 
last  war,  and  who  are  scattered  all  through  that  region,  are  not  will- 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK..  .       127 

ing  to  lie  down  aud  go  to  sleep  with  the  apprehension  that  these 
Indians  may  attack  them  in  the  night  aud  give  no  quarter.  If  it  was 
a  civilized  foe,  they  would  feel  no  alarm  ;  but  it  is  the  fact  that  the  In 
dians  are  savages,  who  massacre  indiscriminately  and  take  no  prisoners, 
except  women,  that  occasions  this  widespread  alarm.  Now,  if  the  gov 
ernment  should  see  fit  to  establish  a  much  smaller  reservation  in  the 
extreme  western  part  of  the  State,  aud  should  remove  the  Indians  onto 
that  reservation,  our  people  feel  as  though  there  would  be  no  guaran 
tee  of  peace.  They  feel  as  though  a  conflict  was  inevitable,  sooner  or 
later.  The  wandering  habits  of  the  Utes  are  so  strongly  fixed,  and  they 
have  been  accustomed  for  so  many  years  to  roam  everywhere  over  the 
State,  that  our  own  people  feel  that  they  could  not  be  kept  on  the  reser 
vation,  but  would  begin  to  wander  off  again  into  the  mining  camps. 
They  think  that  in  the  changed  feeling  which  exists  between  the  white 
people  and  the  Utes — a  feeling  which  I  feel  justified  in  saying  is  hostile 
throughout  the  entire  State,  or,  at  least,  through  that  portion  of  the 
State  near  the  reservation — controversies  would  be  inevitable,  and  that 
there  would  be  some  killing  either  on  one  sideor  the  other,  and  that  in  case 
a  conflict  began  it  would  involve  the  whole  tribe  and  a  very  considerable 
portion  of  the  white  people.  And  while  it  would  be  a  great  benefit  to 
the  people  of  the  State  and  to  the  people  that  are  coming  to  the  State 
from  all  parts  of  the  Union  if  the  Indians  were  removed  entirely  out  of 
the  State,  it  would  at  the  same  time  be  for  the  highest  interest  of  the 
Indians  themselves,  because,  in  case  of  a  conflict,  the  Indians,  being  the 
weaker  party,  of  course  would  suffer  most.  The  belief  is  general  among 
the  people  of  Colorado  that  there  is  mineral  all  through  the  western 
portion  of  the  State  and  at  the  mouth  of  the  Grand  Eiver,  where  it 
passes  the  line  in  Colorado  running  into  Utah.  I  was  informed  the 
morning  I  started  for  Washington  that  at  an  assemblage  of  gentle 
men  at  the  house  of  Bishop  Spauldiug,  the  Episcopal  bishop  of  the  State, 
a  gentleman  who  had  been  through  on  the  mail  route  said  that  he  had 
washed  out  as  much  as  twenty-five  cents  to  the  pan  of  gold  right  there 
in  Grand  Eiver. 

By  Mr.  GUNTER  (in  the  chair): 

Q.  If  there  is  anything  else  which  goes  to  show  the  causes  of  this 
outbreak,  you  may  state  it. — A.  I  would  like  to  say  one  thing  about 
Father  Meeker's  character,  to  give  my  estimate  of  the  man.  He  has 
been  always  regarded  in  Colorado  as  the  very  highest  and  purest  type 
of  a  man  which  any  portion  of  the  country  affords.  He  was  a  natural- 
born  philanthropist.  I  suppose  that  the  committee  all  know  that  he 
was  associated  with  Horace  Greeley  for  a  number  of  years ;  that  he 
founded  the  Greeley  colony,  and  named  it  after  Mr.  Greeley,  and  in 
duced  to  go  there  the  very  best  class  of  people  that  he  could  find — peo 
ple  that  entertained  the  same  views  of  life  that  he  did,  and  the  employes 
whom  he  selected  to  take  the  agency  were  pure  men.  There  was  no 
whisky  saloon  allowed  in  Greeley,  and  the  class  of  men  he  took  to  the 
agency  were  men  that  did  not  use  whisky.  He  went  there,  not  with 
the  objects  for  which  ordinary  Indian  agents  desire  agencies — he  did 
not  go  there  as  an  office-seeker — but  with  a  belief  that  he  could  carry 
out  the  instructions  of  the  Interior  Department — civilize  the  Indians ; 
and  he  set  out  with  enthusiasm  to  accomplish  that  object,  and  I  feel 
sure,  and  the  people  of  our  State  all  feel  confident,  that  a  purer  and 
better  man  than  he  never  was  appointed  to  an  Indian  agency. 


128       -  *UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

By  Mr.  DEERINO  : 

Q.  You  don't  mean  better  fitted  for  that  special  position,  but  better  in 
character  ? — A.  Better  in  character  and  motives. 

Q,  But  you  don't  mean  specially  fitted  for  that  position  ? — A.  My 
own  opinion  is  that  a  man  who  relies  entirely  upon  his  ability  to  accom 
plish  these  reforms  immediately  with  a  tribe  like  the  Ute  Indians  must 
be  a  little  mistaken  in  his  judgment.  I  think  he  perhaps  did  not  under 
stand  sufficiently  the  nature  of  the  Indians.  I  think  if  he  had  been  a 
good  judge  of  their  nature  he  would  have  left  his  agency  several  weeks 
before  the  massacre,  instead  of  remaining  there  to  be  killed  by  them. 
That  is  all  I  have  to  say,  unless  the  committee  desire  to  ask  me  some 
questions. 

By  Mr.  POEHLER  : 

Q.  This  Mr.  Ashley  whom  you  have  mentioned  was  a-  government 
surveyor?— A.  A  deputy  United  States  mineral  surveyor,  appointed  to 
that  place  by  Surveyor-General  Campbell,  who  was  appointed  surveyor- 
general  for  the  State  of  Colorado  by  the  President  or  Secretary  of  the 
Interior. 

Q.  Did  he  see  any  Indians  himself  at  that  time? — A,  I  do  not 
know. 

Q.  You  do  not  know  whether  they  ordered  him  out  ?— A.  I  do  not 
know  whether  they  ordered  him  out  in  person.  He  told  me  that  large 
numbers  of  miners,  well  armed,  came  streaming  by  where  he  was  sur 
veying;  that  the  mountains  were  on  fire  all  around  ;  that  the  men  told 
him  that  the  Indians  had  told  the  white  people  that  they  would  kill 
them  unless  they  left.  I  do  not  think  that  the  Indians  were  immediately 
where  he  was;  whether  he  saw  them  around  him  in  the  mountains,  I  do 
not  know. 

Q.  Did  any  persons  call  on  you  who  had  been  themselves  ordered  oft 
by  the  Indians  ? — A.  I  don't  recollect  distinctly  whether  the  people  who 
described  these  troubles  in  the  North  and  Middle  Parks  were  ordered 
out  themselves.  I  do  not  think  that  any  of  those  people  who  had  been 
ordered  out  came  to  my  office.  This  place  where  the  Indians  ordered 
the  settlers  out  is  quite  a  distance  from  Denver  ;  there  is  .no  railroad 
running  there;  it  is  sparsely  settled.  A  large  proportion  of  the  people 
in  the  North  Park  were  from  Wyoming,  having  come  in  from  the  north, 
and  most  of  them  went  out  by  the  north,  Mr.  Bvers,  who  was  working 
two  mines  near  Hot  Sulphur  Springs,  informed  me  that  his  miners  were 
ordered  out,  and  he  gave  me  the  names  of  his  miners  and  the  names 
of  the  mines  out  of  which  they  were  ordered,  which  I  have  given  to  the 
committee. 

By  Mr.  GUNTER  : 

Q.  How  far  was  that  mining  camp  from  the  reservation  ? — A.  It  was, 
as  I  understand,  fifty  miles  in  a  direct  line,  and  about  one  hundred  miles 
by  the  circuitous  route  which  has  to  be  taken.  I  stated  these  facts  as 
I  understood  them  to  be,  and  gave  the  committee  the  names  of  the  par 
ties  that  were  ordered  out  and  the  places  from  which  they  were  ordered, 
so  that  the  committee  might  subpoena  them  if  they  desired.  Of  course 
I  was  not  present  in  all  parts  of  the  State  when  these  events  occurred, 
and  can  only  state  these  facts  as  based  on  the  common  notoriety,  or  in 
some  cases  on  specific  information. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  person  who  saw  the  Indians  set  fire  to  the 
timber? — A.  I  think  the  wife  of  Major  Thompson,  who  is  sitting  in  the 
room  here,  saw  fires  set.  The  Indians  of  course  were  not  camped  near 
houses,  but  in  the  forests,  and  the  fires,  as  I  have^always  understood 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  129 

sprang  up  where  the  Indians  were.  On  the  first  day  that  I  was  exam 
ined  I  stated  that  Mr.  Terpening,  county  assessor  of  the  county  in  which 
the  State  capital  is  located,  informed  me  that  he  was  passing  over  a  trail 
in  the  county  of  Ouray ;  that  he  met  two  Indians  on  the  trail,  and  about 
five  minutes  after  passing  them  he  came  to  where  fires  had  been  recently 
set ;  that  the  fires  spread  and  burned  over  a  very  large  tract  of  land, 
and  that  be  continued  his  journey  and  met  no  one  else  on  the  trail  or  in 
the  vicinity.  The  statements  which  I  have  read,  and  the  statements 
made  to  me,  are  to  the  effect  that  the  white  people  were  not  in  the  places 
where  the  fires  were  set,  but  the  Indians  were. 

Mr.  WADDILL.  I  understand  that  the  information  you  give  is  such  as 
you  would  have  acquired  naturally  by  virtue  of  your  office  ;  that  you 
were  looking  after  these  matters  and  gathered  this  information  as  gov 
ernor  of  Colorado,  in  order  to  do  what  you  could  for  the  relief  of  the 
people. 

The  WITNESS.  Yes,  sir.  I  have  stated  the  information  which  was 
given  me  from  various  sources,  and  have  not  pretended  to  be  a  witness 
to  those  occurrences,  because  I  was  at  the  State  capitol  most  of  the 
time. 

Mr.  POEHLER.  Then  I  understand  that  fires  were  set  all  around  the 
reservation,  as  well  in  the  southern  part  as  in  the  northern  part? 

The  WITNESS.  Yes,  sir.  Fires  were  set  in  every  one  of  the  San  Juan 
counties — Ouray,  La  Plata,  San  Juan,  and  Hinsdale;  in  those  four 
counties,  in  the  southern  part  of  the  State;  in  Bontt  County,  at  the 
north,  and  in  the  north  park,  and  in  the  middle  park.  I  have  been  in 
formed  that  fires  were  set  in  Gunnison  County,  but  my  information  is 
not  as  specific  there  as  it  is  in  relation  to  the  other  points,  because  it  is 
rumor  in  the  one  case,  and  information  brought  to  me  directly  in  the 
other.  With  the  permission  of  the  committee,  I  should  like  to  introduce 
some  resolutions  adopted  at  a  mass-meeting  of  the  citizens  of  La  Plata 
County. 

By  Mr.  GUNTER  : 

Q.  At  or  about  the  time  these  tires  occurred,  were  there  not  a  great 
many  persons  teaming,  and  hunting-parties  of  white  people  traveling 
and  camping  through  that  section  of  the  country? — A.  I  think  there 
were  very  few  people  hunting.  There  were  many  miners  in  there  en 
gaged  in  working  their  mines.  There  was  very  little  teaming  in  there, 
because  there  were  very  few  roads  ;  the  roads  are  almost  impassable, 
and  to  a  large  number  of  the  camps  there  are  merely  trails.  They  pack 
their  goods  up  on  the  backs  of  lurros,  as  they  term  them  there,  littie 
donkeys. 

Q.  Those  freighting  parties  usually  camp  at  night,  do  they  not  f — A. 
Yes,  sir ;  but  there  is  a  general  desire  on  the  part  of  the  people  of  the 
State  to  preserve  the  timber.  They  appreciate  its  immense  value. 
Miners  all  know  that  it  is  impossible  to  conduct  mining  on  a  large  scale 
unless  you  have  plenty  of  timber,  for  the  purpose  of  timbering  the 
mines.  There  is  no  motive  on  the  part  of  the  whites  to  destroy  the 
forests,  but,  on  the  contrary,  the  strongest  desire  to  preserve  them,  be 
cause  every  miner  knows  that  he  might  need  that  timber  for  mining 
purposes.  I  wish  to  call  attention  to  the  conformation  of  the  reserva 
tion.  This  strip,  running  along  the  southern  border  of  La  Platte  County, 
is  fifteen  miles  wide.  The  strip  of  the  reservation  in  the  western  part 
of  Ouray  and  La  Platte  counties  is  twenty  miles  wide.  There  is  a  large 
boJy  of  Indians  in  the  southern  part  of  this  strip,  and  the  country  im 
mediately  north  of  it  is  occupied  almost  entirely  by  stockmen  ;  although 
H.  Mis  38 9 


130  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

after  yc  u  pass  fifteen  or  twenty  miles  from  the  reservation  the  mining 
country  begins.  Therefore,  you  see  the  reservation  nearly  surrounds 
this  country.  The  cattlemen  are  north  and  east  of  these  strips,  but  the 
reservation  is  not  fenced,  and,  of  course,  cattle  will  necessarily  wander 
around  the  reservation. 

By  Mr.  WADDILL  : 

Q.  What  county  is  that  projecting  into  the  reservation  ? — A.  That  is 
La  Plata  and  Ouray  counties ;  that  is  what  we  call  the  San  Juan  country. 
It  is  surrounded  on  three  sides  by  the  reservation. 

Q.  Is  the  country  south  of  La  Plata  County  good  arable  land  ? — A. 
I  think  it  is.  I  was  informed  last  summer  that  the  surveyors  of  the 
Denver  and  Rio  Grande  road,  in  this  section  of  the  country,  were 
compelled  to  abandon  their  surveys  on  account  of  the  dense  smoke 
which  filled  the  atmosphere.  I  do  not  know  that  to  be  the  case  of  my 
own  knowledge,  but  I  was  informed  that  it  was  the  fact. 

By  Mr.  GUNTER  : 

Q.  You  speak  of  a  large  body  of  Indians  on  that  southern  strip.  Are 
those  Indians  hostile  or  kindly  disposed  towards  the  citizens  ? — A. 
Those  Indians  have  not  been  warlike,  but  the  people  have  regarded  the 
head  chief,  Ignacio,  as  not  friendly.  They  have  felt  the  greatest  appre 
hension  and  alarm  since  the  trouble  broke  out  lest  those  Indians  would 
attack  these  remoter  settlements. 

Q.  Were  they  alarmed  on  account  of  anything  that  that  tribe,  or  that 
portion  of  the  tribe,  had  done,  or  on  account  of  what  had  been  done  by 
the  northern  White  River  Indians  I — A.  They  were  alarmed  on  account 
of  the  general  sympathy  which  they  thought  existed  between  all  the 
members  of  the  tribe.  The  people  believed  that  some  Indians  from 
Iguacio's  band  were  at  White  River  at  the  time  of  the  tight. 

The  resolutions  of  the  citizens  of  La  Plata,  referred  to  by  the  witness, 
were  here  put  in  evidence,  as  follows  : 

We  see  that  the  citizens  of  La  Plata  County  held  a  meeting  on  the  day  after  Christ 
mas  to  consider  the  subject  of  the  removal  of  the  tribe  of  Indians  from  the  15  and  20 
mile  strips  and  from  the  State  of  Colorado.  The  following  is  a  text  of  the  preamble 
and  resolutions  adopted  by  the  meeting  : 

Whereas,  under  the  treaty  of  the  United  States  Government  with  the  Ute  Indians, 
a  portion  of  the  reservation  of  the  latter  extends  along  the  south  and  west  boundary 
lines  of  La  Plata  County,  and  is  fifteen  (15)  miles  in  width  on  the  south  side,  and 
is  twenty  (20)  miles  in  width  on  the  west  side ; 

And  whereas  there  are  populous  settlements  adjacent  to  said  reservation  on  each 
side  thereof,  and  a  large  proportion  of  settlers  are  engaged  in  the  extensive  raising  of 
stock,  for  which  that  region  is  eminently  adapted  ; 

And  whereas  it  is  physically  impossible  to  prevent  the  stock  of  the  settlers  of  La 
Plata  County,  and  of  that  portion  of  New  Mexico  adjacent  to  said  reservation,  from 
wandering  onto  the  reservation  to  graze,  except  by  fencing  the  same,  which  is  im 
practicable; 

And  whereas  there  is  no  game  on  the  reservation,  and  the  result  is  that  to  procure 
game  the  Indians  go  into  the  mountains  and  set  fire  to  the  grass  and  timber  for  the 
purpose  of  driving  the  game  out,  and  also  in  order  to  maliciously  injure  the  settlers 
and  miners  (this  they  aid  during  the  fall  of  this  year),  thereby  destroying  millions  of 
dollars  worth  of  timber  and  a  vast  amount  of  private  property  of  settlers  aud  miners, 
and  burning  off  the  grass,  rendering  it  necessary  for  stock  to  go  to  the  reservation  for 
sustenance ; 

And  whereas  we  have  heard  it  falsely  asserted  by  certain  parties  interested  in  prevent 
ing  the  removal  of  the  Utes,  that  the  said  fires  were  set  out  by  white  men,  we  deem  it 
proper  to  testify  that  we  know  such  statements  to  be  false,  aud  that  said  tires  origin- 
aU'd  where  there  were  no  white  men  and  at  points  where  the  Indians  were  then  hunt 
ing  off  the  reservation  ; 

And  whereas  the  said  Indians  have  always  been  and  are  still  permitted  to  roam  at 
larjifc  and  graze  their  stock  off'  the  reservation,  aud^  there  has  scarcely  ever  been  a 
mouth,  during  the  existence  of  the  reservation,  that  they  have  not  killed  the  stock  of 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  131 

settlers,  which  they  have  done  sometimes  for  food,  but  often  from  motives  of  pure 
mischief; 

"And  whereas  there  is  no  doubt  whatever  that  the  Indians  belonging  to  that  portion 
of  the  reservation  referred  to  made  extensive  preparations  for  a  general  outbreak,  to 
occur  at  or  about  the  time  of  the  massacre  at  the  White  River  Agency  ; 

And  whereas  it  is  obvious  that  many  of  the  warriors  from  this  branch  of  the  tribe 
were  participants  in  the  slaughter  of  Major  Thornburgh  and  a  large  number  of  his 
command,  for  the  reason  that  a  short  time  previous  to  tbat  affair  they  passed  up  the 
Animas  Valley  with  their  squaws  and  children,  and  over  the  range  in  the  direction  of 
the  White  River  Agency,  and  about  the  time  of  the  outbreak  the  squaws  and  children 
returned  alone  ; 

And  whereas  nothing  but  the  presence  of  large  bodies  of  troops  stationed  at  several 
points  and  constantly  maintained  at  great  expense  to  the  government  can  insure  the 
safety  of  the  lives  and  property  of  the  numerous  settlers  and  miners  in  this  region  ; 

And  whereas  this  entire  region  is  so  situated  that  ingress-  and  egress  thereto  is  nec 
essarily,  to  a  very  great  extent,  through  the  reservation,  which  fact  must  inevitably  be 
the  cause  of  inconvenience,  ill-feeling,  and  collision,  so  long  as  said  reservation  exists; 

And  whereas  we  are  satisfied,  and  most  urgently  insist  that,  inasmuch  as  the  treaty 
establishing  the  said  reservation  was  made  with  the  Ute  tribe,  that  the  tribe  is  re 
sponsible  for  the  acts  of  the  White  River  Utes,  and  that  by  theoutrageous  massacre  at 
the  White  River  Agency,  and  the  unnecessary  and  barbarous  attack  upon  and  slaugh 
ter  of  Major  Thornburgh  and  his  men,  the  said  tribe  has  forfeited  all  rights  uuder  the 
treaty,  and  that  the  Government  of  the  United  States  has  the  right,  and  it  is  its  duty, 
to  remove  them  to  some  point  where  their  presence  will  be  less  a  drawback  and  menace 
to  advancing  civilization  ;  therefore 

Resolved,  That  the  Senators  and  Representatives  of  the  State  of  Colorado  in  the  Con 
gress  of  the  United  States  be  and  they  are  hereby  requested  to  use  every  exertion 
within  their  power  to  accomplish  the  removal  of  the  Ute  tribe  of  Indians  from  the 
State  of  Colorado. 

J.  H.  PINKERTOX, 

Presid(  nt. 

EUGEXK   EXGLEY, 

Secretary. 

I  wisli  to  make  one  further  statement — that,  so  far  as  I  know,  there  is 
uot  a  United  States  soldier  in  the  State  who  is  a  protection  to  any  of 
our  people.  The  soldiers  are  at  Garland,  at  Pagosa  Springs,  and  tliere 
are  a  few  there  at  White  River  [indicating  on  the  map].  Here  are  125 
miles  of  country  occupied  by  settlers  west  of  Pagosa  Springs  with  the 
Indians  all  around  them.  Here  is  all  that  country  bearing  on  the  res 
ervation,  with  no  soldiers  near  the  line  of  the  reservation,  but  in  every 
instance  the  citizens  of  the  State  are  left  between  the  Indians  and  the 
soldiers,  according  to  the  present  disposition  of  the  troops,  or  according 
to  their  disposition  at  the  time  or  immediately  after  the  outbreak,  when 
the  troops  were  brought  in,  so  that  the  settlers  have  to  protect  them 
selves. 

By  Mr.  DEERING  : 

Q.  What  is  the  length  of  that  unprotected  region  which  presents  its 
side  to  the  reservation  ? — A.  That  is  a  little  over  150  miles,  as  1  meas 
ure  it  on  the  map,  on  the  eastern  boundary  of  the  reservation ;  then  it 
is  over  100  miles  at  the  north,  and  there  are  about  240  miles  of  settle 
ments  in  the  San  Juan  country,  bearing  upon  the  reservation.  The  ex 
posure  of  the  white  settlements  upon  the  reservation,  as  I  measure  it  on 
the  map,  amounts  to  490  miles. 

By  Mr.  AINSLEE  : 

Q.  General  Adams  testified  to  something  in  regard  to  two  men  com 
ing  in  about  the  time  that  these  women  were  to  be  released,  and  stated 
that  they  tried  to  get  them  and  passed  themselves  off  as  Mormons.  Do 
you  know  any  thing  about  that  matter  ? — A.  No,  sir;  except  what  I  have 
seen  in  the  newspapers. 

Q.  Do  you  know,  or  have  you  heard,  anything  in  regard  to  Mormons 


132  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

having  anything  to  do  with  exciting  the  outbreak  ? — A.  I  have  seen 
newspaper  allusions  to  it,  but  I  don't  believe  the  Mormons  had  am  thing 
to  do  with  it  at  all. 

Q.  You  have  a  Morn  on  population  in  this  State,  I  believe? — A.  We 
have  only  a  small  settlement  in  one  county  in  our  State — the  county  of 
Conejos. 

Q.  You  gave  some  evidence  in  regard  to  John  P.  Adams  stating  that 
the  Indian  Jack  had  told  him  to  go  back  and  not  to  go  to  the  reservation 
or  they  would  kill  all  the  soldiers,  and  that  several  other  parties  made 
the  same  statements;  do  you  know  whether  or  not  any  of  that  informa 
tion  was  carried  to  Major  Thornburgh  before  the  fight — whether  he  was 
warned  f — A.  I  do  not ;  I  know  that  in  the  reports  published  after  the 
battle  it  was  stated  that  the  scout,  Lowry,  who  was  killed  in  the  fight, 
reached  Major  Thornburgh's  force  a  short  time  before  the  battle,  and  that 
he  said  what  Mr.  Adams  reported  him  as  saying  when  hereached  there, 
that  "  we  will  catch  hell  in  that  canon"  (the  one  where  he  was  killed); 
"  that  the  agency  people  were,  probably,  all  massacred  before  that  time  ; 
that  Father  Meeker  would  have  gone  out  if  he  could,  but  that  he  could 
not  get  out." 

Q.  You  think  that  Lowry  readied  Major  Thornburgh's  command  before 
the  fight! — A.  O,  yes;  he,  was  there  and  made  his  report,  and  this  man 
Joe  liankin,  who  made  that  long  ride  after  the  battle  to  carry  the  news 
to  Rriwlius,  gave  at  the  time  he  arrived  there  the  report  that  Lowry 
brought. 

Q.  The  scout  Lowry  was  killed  in  the  fight,  you  say  ?— A.  The  scout 
Lowry  was  killed  in  the  fight,  liankin  was  the  man  who,  as  soon  as 
they  became  intrenched,  got  out,  and  got  a  horse  that  lie  had  never 
ridden  before,  and  rode  180  miles  in  less  than  48  hours.  The  names  of 
these  parties  and  their  residences  are  fully  stated  in  this  letter. 

By  Mr.  GUNTER  : 

Q.  You  speak  in  your  testimony  of  a  mining  camp  being  on  the  reser 
vation  some  three  years  ago;  do  you  know  how  many  were  in  that  min 
ing  party  ? — A.  From  the  common  reports  at  the  time,  I  should  think 
from  thirty  to  fifty  miners  rushed  in.  It  was  only  five  or  six  miles  over 
the  line  of  the  reservation,  in  the  southern  part  of  it. 

Q.  How  long  were  they  on  the  reservation  1 — A.  It  took  them  several 
weeks  to  satisfy  themselves  that  there  was  no  gold  there. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  of  any  complaint  or  dissatisfaction  by  any  of  the  In 
dians  with  regard  to  their  being  there? — A.  I  never  did,  but  always  un 
derstood  to  the  contrary,  that  Ouray  had  told  the  miners  that  he  did 
not  believe  there  was  any  gold  there|;  that  they  might  stay  and  find  out 
for  themselves,  but  that  he  did  not  want  them  to  build  any  cabins. 

Q.  But  I  thought  that  perhaps  other  Indians  were  dissatisfied. — A. 
No,  sir;  and  at  any  rate  the  White  River  Utes  had  no  interest  in  this 
land,  which  was  near  the  town  of  Ouray,  and  even  south  of  Ouray's 
agency. 

Q.  Previous  to  the  outbreak  were  there  any  other  other  parties  on 
the  reservation  for  several  years  back  save  those,  either  prospecting  or 
mining  ? — A.  I  have  no  doubt  but  that  prospectors  have  wandered  over 
the  reservation,  more  or  less,  but  I  think  it  is  extremely  improbable 
that  the  Indians  ever  saw  many  of  them,  because  there  were  so  few  In 
dians  for  such  a  large  tract  of  country  that  prospectors  might  wander 
there  for  weeks  and  not  meet  an  Indian,  as  the  great  mass  of  the  Indians 
would  be  near  their  agencies,  or,  if  away  from  them,  traveling  from  one 
place  to  another  by  their  ordinary  trails. 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  133 

Q.  You  speak  of  those  Southern  Cites  taking  up  their  camp  and  going 
north  toward  the  White  River  Agency  a  short  time  before  the  out 
break  ;  do  you  know  of  any  warlike  demonstration  on  the  part  of  those 
Southern  Utes  upon  that  southern  strip  previous  to  that  time  ? — A.  No, 
sir;  I  do  not  think,  however,  that  the  feeling  was  as  friendly  between 
Iguacio's  band  and  the  whites  as  it  has  been  between  Ouray's  baud  and 
the  whites. 

Q.  Who  was  the  predecessor  of  Mr.  Meeker  ? — A.  Mr.  E.  H.  Dan- 
forth. 

Q.  Was  there  any  serious  dissatisfaction  among  the  Indians  while  he 
was  agent,  or  did  this  dissatisfaction  grow  up  under  Mr.  Meeker's  ad 
ministration  J? — A.  I  have  understood  that  there  was  a  great  delay  in 
the  delivery  of  goods  and  supplies  belonging  to  the  Indians  on  account 
of  the  failure  of  the  freight  contractor  to  ship  them  from  Rawlins  to  the 
agency  ;  that  was  while  Mr.  Danforth  was  agent  5  but  I  understood  that 
after  Father  Meeker  cams  there  he  brought  the  goods  in  regularly,  and 
that  there  was  no  complaint  of  that  nature  during  his  time,  and  that 
the  excitement  growing  out  of  the  failure  to  deliver  supplies  had 
entirely  died  out  at  the  time  of  the  difficulty  or  perhaps  before. 

Q.  During  this  dissatisfaction  was  there  any  warlike  demonstration 
on  the  part  of  the  Indians  ?  Did  it  grow  so  serious  as  that? — A.  I  do 
not  know  very  much  about  that.  My  residence  was  in  the  extreme 
southern  portion  of  the  State,  so  that  I  knew  less  about  it  than  other 
people.  Major  Thompson  would  know  more  about  it. 

By  Mr.  POUND  : 

Q.  Didn't  the  Indians  regard  the  determination  to  take  the  troops  to  the 
agency  as  a  declaration  of  war  on  the  part  of  the  government? — A.  I 
think  they  regarded  the  effort  of  the  government  to  put  the  troops  in 
there  as  showing  a  determination  to  exercise  some  control  over  them. 
Up  to  that  time  those  White  River  Cites  had  been  doing  about  as  they 
pleased.  They  had  never  been  whipped  by  either  white  men  or  Indians, 
so  far  as  I  have  ever  heard,  and  had  never  felt  the  control  of  the  gov 
ernment  or  anybody  else,  and  they  may  have  seen  a  purpose  on  the 
part  of  the  government  to  assert  its  power  and  to  control  them  in  a 
measure,  and  concluded  to  resist  it. 

Q.  They  had  already  indicated  a  determination  to  resist  any  effort  on 
the  part  of  the  government  to  plant  troops  on  any  part  of  the  reserva 
tion,  hadn't  they? — A.  The  statements  of  various  people  which  I  intro 
duced  yesterday  show  that  they  had  been  saying  for  quite  a  while  pre 
ceding  the  tight  that  if  the  soldiers  came  they  would  kill  them.  These 
troops  were  called  for  by  the  agent,  who  had  been  roughly  handled,  and 
they  were  sent  there,  as  I  understand,  to  protect  his  life  when  he  be 
lieved  it  to  be  in  danger,  and  to  protect  the  lives  of  the  people  that  the 
government  had  sent  there  as  its  representatives. 

Mr.  GUNTER  (in  the  chair).  Mr.  Pound  wishes  to  know  if  the  In 
dians  did  not  consider  the  sending  in  of  the  troops  as  a  declaration  of 
war,  and  so  express  themselves. 

The  WITNESS.  I  think  not.  But  I  think  they  had  made  up  their 
minds  that  if  the  government  wanted  to  send  any  troops  there  they 
would  fight  them,  and  I  think  that  a  good  many  of  those  ignorant  young 
Utes  think  that  they  can  whip  all  the  soldiers  of  the  United  States. 

By  Mr.  POUND  : 

Q.  Was  not  the  massacre  the  result  of  the  determination  of  the  gov 
ernment  to  force  the  troops  in  against  the  expressed  opposition  of  the 
Indians? — A.  Well,  the  fight  was  precipitated  by  the  approach  of  the 


134  TJTE    INDIAN    OU1BIEAK. 

troops,  but  the  testimony  which  has  been  introduced  shows,  I  think, 
that  the  lives  of  the  agent  and  the  employes  of  the  government  were  in 
peril  several  weeks  before  the  troops  got  there. 

Q.  Bat  the  facts  show  that  they  were  more  imperilled  by  the  attempt 
to  get  troops  in  ? — A.  O,  yes,  sir. 

By  Mr.  GUNTER  : 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  if  the  troops  had  stopped  at  the  boundary  the 
agency  would  have  escaped  attack  and  the  massacre  have  been  averted  ! 
— A.  It  might  have  been  averted  for  a  time,  but  I  think  the  tribe  was  ripe 
for  war.  I  think  they  neither  respected  nor  feared  the  government  nor 
the  Avhite  people. 

By  Mr.  WELLBORN  : 

Q.  That  attack  on  Major  Thoruburgh,  how  far  from  the  northern 
boundary  of  the  reservation  ? — A.  Only  a  short  distance,  a  mile  or 
two. 

Q.  Is  that  northern  boundary  marked  by  well  defined  monuments  or 
is  it  an  imaginary  line? — A.  There  are  no  well  defined  monuments 
around  there  anywhere,  the  monuments  are  very  far  apart. 

Q.  It  is  an  imaginary  line  then  ? — A.  It  is  practically  an  imaginary 
line. 

By  Mr.  HASKELL  : 

The  government  had  a  policy  to  carry  ou  twith  those  Indians,  agreed  to 
by  everybody,  that  they  should  be  kept  upon  the  reservation,  civilized, 
and  taught  the  arts  of  peace,  and  made  to  behave  themselves  in  their  rela 
tions  to  the  whites.  That  is  the  general  policy  of  the  goverment.  Now 
in  carrying  out  that  policy,  in  your  judgment,  did  the  exigency  of  the 
situation  demand  the  presence  of  an  armed  force  for  the  preservation  of 
peace  at  that  agency  and  the  lives  of  those  people  there  ? — A.  I  think  it 
did.  I  think  that  they  were  determined  not  to  have  their  children  edu 
cated  ;  the  great  mass  of  them  were  determined  not  to  work.  I  think 
they  would  have  resisted  all  efforts  to  carry  out  a  policy  of  that  kind, 
and  I  think  that  is  shown  by  the  facts  that  they  did  shoot  at  the  plow 
man  and  stopped  the  plowing  in  that  way.  They  had  thoroughly  cowed 
the  agent  for  some  time  previous  to  the  arrival  of  the  troops. 

Q.  You  think,  then,  that  they  occupied,  for  instance,  the  position  of 
the  law-breaker,  and  that  the  difficulty  grew  out  of  the  sending  of  the 
troops  there  to  preserve  the  peace,  just  as  a  disturbance  might  result, 
perhaps,  from  sending  a  peace  officer  to  arrest  or  control  a  lawless  in 
dividual  ? — A.  That  is  my  idea.  I  think  they  were  in  defiance  of  the 
government. 

Q.  And  to  say  that  the  sending  of  the  troops  caused  the  trouble  would 
be  the  same  as  to  say  that  sending  a  peace  officer  to  arrest  a  criminal 
>vas  a  declaration  of  war  on  the  part  of  the  authorities  towards  the 
criminal  and  gave  him  a  right  to  resist  ? — A.  I  think  that  would  be  an 
analogous  case. 


WASHINGTON,  January  31,  1880. 

JAMES  B.  THOMPSON  sworn  and  examined. 

By  Mr.  GUNTER.  [In  the  chair.]  The  object  of  the  present  examina 
tion  is  to  ascertain,  if  we  can,  the  causes  of  what  is  known  as  the  late 
Ute  outbreak.  We  would  be  glad  that  you  would  confine  your  state 
ment  strictly  to  that. 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  135 

The  WITNESS.  I  bad  thought  that  in  order  to  give  a  better  idea  of 
what  my  knowledge  of  Indian  affairs  is,  I  had  better  state  that  I  was 
appointed  a  special  agent  for  these  roving  Utes  on  February  14,  1871, 
and  was  stationed  at  Denver  for  that  purpose.  I  held  that  position 
until  December  31, 1875,  when  I  resigned.  The  next  year  I  went  to  the 
portion  of  the  country  in  which  I  have  since  lived  for  two  years,  near 
where  this  fight  occurred,  what  is  now  Eoutt  County,  Northern  Colorado, 
'for  the  purpose  of  looking  over  the  country,  with  the  intention  of  induc 
ing  a  colony  to  come  to  Bear  River  Valley.  I  remained  there  about 
three  mouths  in  the  summer  and  fall  of  1876,  and  in  the  summer  of  1877 
I  removed  there  with  my  family.  That  is  known  as  the  Haydeii  settle 
ment,  about  50  miles  in  a  direct  line  northeast  from  the  White  Eiver 
Agency  on  Bear  Eiver.  I  lived  there  until  about  the  first  of  July  last. 
Previous  to  that  time  I  had  been  in  Washington  about  two  months, 
under  orders  from  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  and  returned  with  an 
appointment  as  United  States  timber  agent  for  Colorado  and  New  Mex 
ico.  It  was  shortly  after  I  left  there  that  some  of  these  most  serious 
depredations  occurred,  which  I  will  come  to  by  and  by.  During  my 
term  of  office  as  special  agent  at  Denver,  it  was  always  a  habit  of  these 
Indians  to  come  there  in  large  numbers,  generally  twice  a  year,  mostly 
in  March  or  April,  and  again  in  August  and  September,  for  the  purpose 
of  hunting  buffalo  on  the  plains  east  of  Denver,  where  the  buffalo  were 
quite  numerous  up  to  1875,  in  what  is  known  as  the  Republican  country, 
on  the  headwaters  of  the  Eepublicau  Eiver,  and  this  agency  was  estab 
lished  partly  to  take  care  of  those  roving  Utes,  and  as  far  as  possible 
to  keep  them  from  depredating  upon  the  white  people  in  their  travel 
back  and  forth.  I  would  like  to  show  from  documents  that  I  have  here, 
and  also  from  published  reports  of  the  department,  how  they  conducted 
themselves  during  the  time  I  was  acting  as  agent.  I  would  also  like  to 
go  back  of  that  and  refer  to  a  list  of  claims  for  depredations  committed 
by  the  Indians  for  the  ten  .years  ending  April  30,  1874.  These  claims,  I 
think,  amount  to  something  like  six  millions  of  dollars,  those  which  are 
reported  from  citizens  of  Colorado. 

Q.  Are  these  depredations  by  the  Utes? — A.  By  the  Utes.  I  have  a 
list  of  claims  for  depredations  by  Utes  on  the  property  of  citizens  of 
Colorado  for  the  ten  years  ending  April  30,  1874.  It  appears  in  this 
published  list  that  most  of  those  depredations  took  place  during  the 
years  1873  and  1874.  I  have  no  personal  knowledge  of  any  of  them, 
with  the  exception  of  two  or  three,  particularly  those  of  William  N. 
Byers  and  Andrew  Sageudorf,  amounting  to  $772.50.  In  both  of  these 
cases  I  took  the  evidence  of  the  Indians  for  the  purpose  of  forwarding 
it  to  the  department  and  try  to  establish  Mr.  Byers's  claim,  so  that  he 
could  be  remunerated  for  what  he  had  lost,  and  in  both  cases  the  Indians 
.admitted  in  my  presence,  in  the  first  instance,  in  Mr.  Byers's  case,  that 
they  had  burned  his  building  simply  because  they  had  a  spite  against 
him;  and  in  the  other  case,  that  they  had  killed  cattle  belonging  to 
Sagandorf,  because  they  were  hungry.  There  are  26  of  these  individual 
claims,  but  these  are  the  only  two  that  I  have  any  actual  personal 
knowledge  of — that  is,  that  I  investigated  in  any  way. 

The  witness  submitted  the  list. 

List  of  claims  for  depredations  of  Ute  Indians  for  the  10  years  ending  April  30,  1874. 

J.  Richard .,. $15,125 

J.  B.  Woodson QQQ 

N-K°.v "'..".'.'.I'.'.'.  327  50 

ihos.  Parker 750 


136  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK 

J.  K.  Doyle not  stated. 

J.  Gutirrez $120  20 

Thomas  Suaso 56 

H.  M.  Fosdick 500 

J.  M.  Cordova 25 

T.  D.  Burns 125 

Bernardo  Sanclies 128 

C.  H.  R.  Stevens 200 

David  Morley 155 

Joseph  Huff 400 

Matilda  Saxtou 50 

Edward  Powell 145 

C.  S.  Burdsall 125 

W.  N.  Byers 400 

Andrew  Sagendorf 332  50 

F.  T.  C.  De  Buca  (M.  and  A.) 3,590 

James  M.  Harris 100 

James  M.  Harris 150 

Probst  and  Kerchuer 900 

Laurence  and  Woodson t>00 

W.  W.  Rockhill ". 150 

!Sam.  W.  Brown 40 

$-25,094  20- 

In  regard  to  those  fires  through  the  State  last  year,  when  I  came  out 
from  Bear  River  in  May,  the  day  that  ]  left,  I  met,  at  what  is  known 
as  the  forks  of  the  road  where  the  government  road  to  the  White  River 
Agency  separates — one  branch  going  to  Windsor  and  White  River,  and 
the  other  to  the  Hayden  settlement — an  Indian  named  Lakrevach,  son 
of  old  Nevada,  formerly  head  chief  of  the  Northern  Utes.  He  came  riding 
very  furiously  and  asked  where  I  was  going.  I  told  him  to  Washing 
ton.  He  asked  what  I  was  going  for  and  I  told  him.  He  wanted  to 
know  if  I  was  not  going  for  soldiers,  and  I  answered,  "No ;  nothing  of 
the  kind ;  I  am  going  on  private  business."  He  accompanied  me  to 
Snake  River,  about  forty-five  miles  from  where  I  met  him,  and  on  the 
way  I  noticed  a  number  of  places  where  we  had  been  in  the  habit  of 
camping  on  our  way  back  and  forth  to  Rawlins,  where  there  were  grassy 
meadows,  and  all  of  them  were  on  fire  or  had  been  burned  a  few  days 
before,  and  in  each  instance  I  pointed  them  out  and  asked  him  what 
was  the  cause  of  the  fire — who  had  set  it.  He  said  the  Indians  in  every 
case.  I  asked  why.  He  said  to  make  good  grass.  As  I  came  on  I 
noticed  a  number  of  places  where  fires  of  the  same  nature  had  been  set 
between  Snake  River  and  Rawlius.  On  my  way  back  there  in  July  the 
entire  country — the  whole  mountain  range — the  hills  bordering  on  Bear 
River — seemed  to  be  on  fire  in  places,  and  the  whole  country  was 
shrouded  in  smoke.  After  I  returned  to  Denver  I  took  it  upon  myself 
to  investigate,  so  far  as  I  could,  the  cause  of  those  fires.  During  the 
visit  of  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior  to  Denver  this  summer,  I  was  in 
structed  by  him  to  further  continue  the  investigation,  and  these  letters,* 
that  I  would  like  to  read,  are  in  answer  to  letters  that  I  wrote  to  ac 
quaintances  of  mine — settlers  in  that  northern  country — for  the  pur 
pose  of  ascertaining  those  facts. 

The  witness  read  as  follows  : 

HAYDEN,  ROUTT  COUNTY,  COLO., 

September  18,  1879. 

Yours  of  September  6th  is  at  hand.  All  the  country  from  the  divide  on  the  north 
side  of  the  Bear  River  to  the  Hahn's  Peak  mines  are  burnt,  that  is  from  12  to  15  miles, 
and  allhands  have  been  fighting  fire  for  two  days  to  save  the  buildings,  so  I  am  told  by 
the  mail  carrier.  The  fire  extends,  over  forty  miles  in  length.  All  of  Twenty  Mile 
Park  is  burnt,  and  all  the  range  of  mountains  to  the  east  and  northeast  of  it.  That 
fire  alone  has  burnt  thousands  of  acres  of  timber. 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK,  137 

I  do  not  know  how  much  country  is  burnt  over  below  here,  but  some  five  or  six  fires 
have  been  burning  for  weeks.  The  air  is  so-full  of  smoke  you  can  scarce  see  halt  a 
mile,  and  at  times  you  cannot  see  two  hundred  yards.  I  have  not  seen  the  sky  for 
four  weeks  to  tell  whether  it  was  cloudy  or  not. 

From  the  canon  to  the  mouth  of  Elk  River  a  large  width  of  country  is  burnt  and 
thousands  of  acres  of  timber  have  been  destroyed  by  the  fires  which  the  Utes  origin 
ated  over  three  months  ago,  as  far  as  I  can  learn. 

Nearly  all  the  fires  have  been  set  by  the  Utes.  I  could  tell  when  they  moved  camp 
and  what  way  they  were  going  by  the  lires  they  left.  They  burnt  all  my  meadow 
lands  below  here  with  the  Johnson  house.  Then  above  all  the  bottom  lands  from  here 
to  the  canon  six  miles  above,  with  a  great  deal  of  the  timber  on  the  islands.  A  large 
bunch  of  timber  is  burnt  between  Steamboat  Springs  and  Rock  Creek,  and  thousands 
of  acres  of  country  burnt  over  that  I  saw  while  in  Middle  Park  last  July.  How  much 
was  burnt  in  North  Park  I  cannot  learn,  but  thousands  and  thousands  of  acres  of  land 
lias  been  burnt  over,  and  millions  of  dollars'  worth  of  timber  has  been  destroyed  by- 
fire. 

Yours  respectfully, 

A.  H.  SMART, 
Hay  den,  Colo. 

Maj.  J.  B.  THOMPSON, 

Denver,  Colo. 


WHITE  RIVER,  COLO. 

January  9,  I860. 
JAMES  B.  THOMPSON,  Esq.. 

Denver,  Colorado  : 

MY  DEAR  Sm:    Your  letter  of  D^CBtnbar  t'~)bh  was  receive!  in  due  ti:ns,  bat  I  was 
away  from  here  and  did  not  get  it  till  yesterday. 

In  regard  to  the  fires  which  raged  in  Northern  Colorado  last  July  and  August,  the 
Utes  commenced  to  fire  the  country  about  Snake  River,  near  the  base  of  the  mountains^ 
about  forty  miles  oft  the  line  of  their  reservation.  They  fired  the  country  all  along  to 
Bear  River.  These  fires  run  east  as  far  as  the  main  range.  I  saw  a  party  of  Utes  on 
Snake  River  in  July.  They  told  me  they  had  set  tha  fires  to  drive  the  game  out. 
Very  truly  yours, 

JAMES  BONER. 


TERRITORY  OF  WYOMING, 

County  of  Carbon,  ss  : 

Before  me,  Geo.  C.  Smith,  a  notary  public  in  and  for  said  county  of  Carbrm,  and 
Territory  of  Wyoming,  this  day  personally  appeared  Frank  A.  Hiuinan,  who  being  by 
me  first  duly  sworn  according  to  law,  deposes  and  siys,  that  he  resides  at  "  Hahn's 
Peak,"  in  the  county  of  Routt  and  State  of  Colorado;  that  he  resided  at  and  was  en 
gaged  in  business  at  said  Hahn's  Peak  during  the  summer  of  A.  D.  1879  ;  that  during 
The  months  of  June  and  July,  1879,  the  timber  in  the  mountains  around  said  Hahn's 
Peak  for  many  miles  was  burned;  that  such  fires  were  started  by  the  Indians  who 
were  at  that  time  off  of  their  reservation;  that  deponent  in  his  business  was  buying 
buckskins  from  the  Ute  Indians,  and  that  about  the  1st  of  July,  1879,  two  lite  Indians, 
named  "  Dauna  "  and  "  Macisco,"  respectively,  told  deponent  that  they,  the  Ute  In 
dians,  had  set  the  fire  aforesaid  to  the  woods  and  timber  to  burn  the  dry  and  fallen 
trees  and  timber,  so  they  could  get  through  with  their  horses ;  that  it  ^is  generally 
known  in  the  country  around  that  the  said  tire  was  started  by  the  said  Ute  Indians  ; 
that  said  Indians  belonged  to  the  White  River  Utes,  and  were  off  of  their  reservation 
at  the  time  of  starting  said  tire ;  that  where  said  fire  was  started  was  about  sixty 
miles  off  of  their  reservation.  The  Bear  River  settlement,  lying  between  their  reserva 
tion  and  the  place  of  starting  said  fire;  that  said  fire  was  started  during  the  early  part 
of  June,  1879,  and  burned  fiercely  for  about  two  months  or  more  destroying  an  im 
mense  amount  of  valuable  timber  in  the  mountains,  and  also  causing  much  loss  audi 
destruction  of  and  damage  to  private  property. 

FRANK  A.  H1NMAN. 

Subscribed  and  sworn  to  before  me  this  26th  day  of  December,  A.  D.  1879. 

[SEAL.]  GEO.  C.  SMITH, 

Notary  Public. 


138  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

It  is  my  impression,  outside  of  what  evidence  has  been  furnished  here, 
from  my  knowledge  of  the  country  and  the  people,  and  also  of  the  hab 
its  of  the  Indians  that  those  fires  must  have  been  all  set  by  the  Indians. 
There  were  no  hunters  in  there  at  that  time,  nor  any  tourists  ;  if  there 
had  been  it  would  have  been  known  to  the  mail-carriers  who  reported  at 
our  place  as  a  terminus  three  times  a  week.  It  is  not  customary  for 
them  to  go  in  there  for  those  purposes  sooner  than  the  middle  of  August 
or  the  first  of  September.  I  am  positive  there  were  no  white  men  in 
there  at  the  time  these  fires  started. 

In  regard  to  the  fires  set  at  Hayden,  in  which  I  was  personally  inter 
ested,  I  would  present  the  affidavit  of  my  wife. 

The  affidavit  \yas  read  as  follows : 

DENVER,  December  30,  1879. 

Eliza  W.  Thompson,  being  first  duly  sworn,  deposes  and  says  that  on  the  first  day  of 
July,  1879,  she  was  a  resident  of  Hay  den,  Routt  County,  Colorado,  forty-five  miles 
northeast  of  the  White  River  Ute  Indian  Agency,  and  tweuty-tive  miles  north  of  the 
reservation  line  ;  that  on  or  about  the  first  day  of  July,  1879,  aforesaid,  three  Ute  In 
dians,  named  Big  Jo,  Smoko,  and  another  (name  unknown)  canie  to  her  house  at  Hay- 
den,  got  dinner,  and  after  lounging  about  for  an  hour  asked  for  matches.  Matches 
were  given  them,  when  they  rode  off  up  the  river  about  three-quarters  of  a.  mile,  dis 
mounted  and  set  tire  to  the  grass  and  sage  brush.  She  watched  them  with  a  powerful 
field  glass  and  saw  them  set  the  tire.  I  also  saw  the  cabin  of  Gordon  C.  Smart  burn, 
and  knew  that  it  was  destroyed  by  this  fire.  I  also  assert  that  had  not  the  wind 
changed,  the  homes  in  which  myself  and  Mrs.  A.  H.  Sinirt  lived  would  have  been  de 
stroyed,  and  the  lives  of  ourselves  and  our  children  endangered.  This  was  no  acci 
dental  tire  caused  by  a  neglected  camp-fire  or  by  sparks  dropped  from  a  pipe.  I  saw  them 
set  this  fire,  and  I  know  that  they  did  so  maliciously,  and  with  the  intention  of  de 
stroying  my  property  and  endangering  the  lives  of  myself  and  my  children. 

ELIZA  W.  THOMPSON. 

Sworn  and  subscribed  to  before  ma  this  thirtieth  day  of  December,  1879. 

HERMAN  F.  LAUTER, 

Notary  Public. 

At  this  particular  time  there  was  not  a  white  man  in  what  is  known 
as  the  Hayden  settlement;  they  were  all  out  upon  some  business  or 
other.  The  tire  which  was  set  on  the  9th  of  July,  referred  to,  I 
think,  in  Mr.  Smart's  letter,  destroyed  a  house  belonging  to  him  which 
he  called  the  Johnson  House,  situated  about  a  mile  and  a  half  south  of 
the  Haydeii  town-site,  and  about  forty  or  fifty  tons  of  hay,  and  partial- 
ally  destroyed  a  house  belonging  to  me.  Mr.  Smart  reported  as  soon 
as  he  ascertained  them  positively,  the  names  of  the  Indians,  "China 
man  n  and  Bennett,  who  had  set  this  fire  and  who  were  known  to  me. 
After  consultation  with  the  judge  of  the  district  court  at  Denver,  I  had 
a  warrant  issued  for  the  arrest  of  those  parties  and  placed  in  the  hands 
of  the  sheriff  of  Grand  County,  Mr.  Bessey.  He  took  a  posse  of  five 
men  and  went  to  the  White  River  Agency  for  the  purpose  of  making  the 
arrest.  He  was  met  by  Agent  Meeker  and  had  a  short  talk  with  him, 
stating  his  business.  Mr.  Meeker  called  up  Douglas  and  told  him  it 
was  his  duty  and  would  be  to  his  interest  to  point  out  the  Indians  who 
had  committed  this  depredation.  He  explained  to  him  that  they  would 
be  arrested  and  taken  to  Georgetown  or  Denver,  probably,  for  trial ; 
that  they  would  have  a  fair  trial,  and  if  there  was  no  evidence  against 
them  they  would  be  discharged.  Douglas  thought  the  matter  over  a 
few  minutes,  and,  in  a  very  surly  manner,  informed  the  sheriff  that  he 
had  no  business  on  the  reservation;  that  he  would  not  point  out  the 
Indians,  and  that  the  wisest  thing  for  the  sheriff  to  do  would  be  to  turn 
back  and  go  home,  which  he  soon  did.  Mr.  Bessey  returned  to  Hot 
Sulphur  Springs,  the  county-seat,  and  from  there  wrote  to  me  the  result 
of  his  mission.  Not  being  entirely  satisfied,  I  caused  another  warrant  to 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  139 

issue,  upon  which  the  judge  placed  his  indorsement,  to  the  effect  that  the 
sheriff  was  required  to  serve  it  anywhere  in  the  State  of  Colorado,  In 
dian  reservation  or  not.  This  warrant  was  sent  to  the  sheriff  of  Koutt 
County.  About  the  same  time  I  made  application  to  the  Commissioner 
of  Indian  Affairs  for  redress  in  the  matter,  and  asked  if  troops  could 
not  be  sent  there  for  the  purpose  of  aiding  the  sheriff  in  making  arrests. 
Previous  to  that,  however,  Mr.  Meeker  had  made  a  similar  request.  I 
was  answered  that  troops  had  already  been  ordered  there.  Before  the 
warrant  could  be  gotten  to  the  sheriff  and  he  could  get  down  to  the 
White  Hi ver  Agency  the  tight  occurred. 

I  have  two  other  letters  in  regard  to  these  fires  which  I  would  like  to 
put  in  evidence  here  if  they  are  admissible,  but  they  are  in  the  hands 
of  our  Bepresentative,  Mr.  Belford,  at  present.  They  are  letters  written 
to  me  as  timber  agent,  from  Thomas  H.  Crawford,  state  representative 
from  that  county,  and  George  M.  Rand,  postmaster  at  Hermitage,  Grand 
County,  in  regard  to  destruction  of  other  property. 

The  witness  read  the  following : 

List  of  Jires.— Houses  burned   on  and  near  Bear  Rirer,  Kou-tt  County,  during  the  years 

1870,  1875.  1876,  and  1879. 

W.  N.  Byers,  1870,  two  houses. 

Frank  Marshall,  1876,  one  house. 

W.  Springer,  1876,  one  house. 

John  TO\Y,  1876,  one  house. 

John  Jay,  1875,  one  house. 

A.  L.  Fly,  1875,  one  house. 

Pollock  Brothers,  1876,  two  houses. 

D.  G.  W.  Whiting,  1876,  house,  corral,  stable,  hay. 

G.  C.  Smart,  1879.,  one  house. 

A.  H.  Smart,  1879,  one  house. 

There  is  no  positive  evidence  in  my  possession  to  show  that  these 
houses  were  burned  by  Indians,  but  I  am  as  well  satisfied  that  they  were 
as  though  I  had  seen  it  done,  from  the  fact  that  the  settlements  were 
scattered.  There  were  no  white  men  in  there  outside  of  actual  settlers 
to  set  accidental  fires.  There  is  no  man  in  the  country  (I  know  them  all 
intimately  and  personally)  who  would  be  mean  enough  to  retaliate  upon 
another  by  destroying  his  property.  They  could  not  have  set  the  fires, 
and  the  fires  could  not  have  been  spontaneous;  nobody  could  have  set 
them  but  the  Indians. 

By  Mr.  DEERING: 

Q.  Were  those  buildings  burned  seemingly  by  direct  purpose  or  did 
the  burning  result  from  the  country  being  set  on  tire? — A.  No,  sir;  the 
fire  seems  to  have  been  set  near  the  building. 

The  witness  read  the  following  papers  : 

GEORGETOWN,  CLEAR  CREEK  COUNTY,  COLORADO, 

February  25,  1875. 

To  Major-General  JOHN  POPE, 

Commanding  District : 

The  undersigned,  citizens  of  Clear  Creek  and  Grand  Counties,  Colorado,  would  re 
spectfully  ask  you  to  use  your  influence  to  secure  the  establishment  of  a  military  post 
at  some  point  in  Western  Colorado  on  the  line  of  emigration,  and  for  the  following 
reasons: 

The  great  valleys  of  the  Grand  White  Snake  and  Bear  Rivers  are  now  accessible  by 
wagon  roads  coustiucted  during  the  past  year,  and  the  tide  of  emigration  to  that  sec 
tion  has  already  began. 

That  the  Indians  who  inhabit  a  portion  of  the  country  are  adverse  to  the  occupation 
by  citizens  of  certain  portions  to  which  the  Indian  title  has  become  extinct  by  treaty 


140  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

of  the  government,  they  having  frequently  forced  miners  to  cease  prospecting  on 
what  is  known  as  the  Middle  Park,  thereby  retarding  the  development  and  prosperity 
of  the  country. 

The  fact  made  public  that  the  government  would  establish  a  military  post  and  station 
troops  in  that  section  during  the  coming  summer,  would  give  the  settlers  already  there 
a  sense  of  security  and  include  a  very  large  influx  of  actual  settlers  during  the  coming 
season  and  thereafter. 

That  Western  Colorado  for  pastoral  and  agricultural  advantages  is  believed  to  be 
equal  to  any  portion  of  the  Territory,  and  abounds  in  coal,  iron,  salt,  and  the  precious 
metals,  and  only  needs  proper  government  protection  to  enable  it  to  take  a  prominent 
position  in  the  great  march  of  western  progress. 
And  in  duty  bound  your  petitioners  will  ever  pray,  &c. 

WILLIAM  M.  CLARK, 
ELBERT  BESLY, 
SAMUEL  D.  CLARK, 
CHAS.  R.  STEITZ, 

and  350  others. 

[Indorsements.] 

HEADQUARTERS  DEPARTMENT  OF  THE  MISSOURI. 

Fort  Leave nwor tk,  Nan.,  March  27,  1875. 

This  petition  is  respectfully  forwarded  through  office  of  the  assistant  adjutant-gen 
eral,  headquarters  Military  Division  of  the  Missouri,  to  the  Adjutant-General  of  the 
Army,  with  the  request  that  the  War  Department  invite  the  attention  of  the  Secretary 
of  the  Interior  to  the  facts  therein  stated,  which  are  in  general  known  to  me  to  be  true, 
and  suggest  that  the  agents  for  these  Indians  be  instructed  to  require  these  Indians 
to  remain  on  their  reservations  and  cease  molesting  white  people  who  are  traveling 
through  or  prospecting  those  districts  of  country  to  which  the  Indian  title  has  been 
extinguished  by  treaty  and  in  which  the  Indians  have  no  right  themselves  to  be. 

JNO.  POPE, 
Bvt.  Maj.  Gen.,  U.  S.  A.,  Commanding. 

HEADQUARTERS  MILITARY  DIVISION  MISSOURI, 

Chicago,  March  30,  1875. 

Respectfully  forwarded  to  the  Adjutant-General,  through  headquarters  of  the  Army, 
inviting  attention  to  Brigadier-General  Pope's  indorsement  hereon.  There  are  two  diffi 
culties  in  the  way  of  preventing  compliance  with  the  wishes  of  these  petitioners:  1st, 
we  have  no  money  which  can  be  employed  injthe  construction  of  the  post;  and,2d,  if 
we  had  the  means  we  have  not  got  the  troops  to  spare  for  its  garrison. 

P.  H.  SHERIDAN, 
Lieutenant  General,  Commanding. 


TERRITORY  OF  COLORADO, 

County  of  Arapahoe,  ss  : 

Daniel  Deffebach,  of  said  county,  being  first  duly  sworn,  deposes  and  says  that  some 
time  in  the  fall  of  the  year  1873  he  bought  or  traded  for  a  white  pony,  with  blue  spots, 
commonly  called  a  pinto  pony,  of  a  certain  Ute  Indian  named  Colorado  ;  that  after 
wards  and  during  the  same  year,  to  wit,  1873,  he  sold  and  transferred  said  described 
pony  to  one  William  H.  Fahey ;  that  he  understands  and  believes  that  said  Fahey  lost 
said  pony  a  few  days  before  Christmas,  1873 ;  that  some  month  or  more  ago,  to  wit, 
about  the  time  the  band  of  Ute  Indians  left  the  settlements  for  a  buffalo  hunt  on  the 
plains  to  the  east  of  Colorado,  he  saw  said  described  pony  in  the  possession  of  the  afore 
said  Ute  Indian  Colorado. 

And  further  saith  not. 

DANIEL  DEFFEBACH. 

Subscribed  and  sworn  to  before  me  this  1st  day  of  December,  A.  D.  1873. 

JOHN  WALKER,  J.  P. 


TERRITORY  OF  COLORADO, 

County  of  Aropahoe,  ss  : 

William  H.  Fahey.  of  said  county,  being  first  duly  sworn,  deposes  and  says  that  some 
time  in  the  fall  of  1873  he  purchased  of  one  Daniel  Deffenbach  a  pinto  pony  ;  that! 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  141 

about  a  week  before  Christmas,  1873,  said  pony  was  missing,  since  which  ttme  he  has 
not  seen  him  ;  that  he  never  sold  or  traded  said  pony,  nor  otherwise  disposed  of  said 
pony  to  any  one ;  that  he  paid  said  Daniel  Deftenbach  $65  for  said  pony. 
Aud  further  saith  not. 

W.  H.  FAHEY. 

Subscribed  and  sworn  to  before  me  this  1st  day  of  December,  A.  D.  1874. 

JOHN  WALKER,  J.  P. 


UNITED  STATES  OF  AMERICA, 

Territory  of  Colorado,  ss  : 

Personally  appeared  before  me,  Orson  Brooks,  United  States  commissioner  in  and  for 
said  Territory,  J.  S.  Sanderson,  of  said  Territory  of  Colorado,  who,  being  duly  sworn, 
on  oath  says  that  one  pair  of  large  strawberry  roan  horses  strayed  from  Barlow  &- 
Sanderson  Stage  Company,  at  station  called  "  Hogback,"  about  25  miles  north  of  Trin 
idad,  Colo.,  on  or  about  the  last  days  of  June,  1874;  and  that  on  the  18th  day  of 
July,  1874,  I  found  said  horses  in  the  Ute  Indian  camp,  in  or  near  Denver,  Colo. : 
that  I  know  these  are  the  horses  that  belong  to  said  stage  company  ;  I  bought  them 
myself  in  the  city  of  Saint  Louis,  Mo. 

And  further  deponent  saith  not. 

J.  S.  SANDERSON. 

I,  Lewis  Barnum,  know  the  above-described  horses  perfectly  well,  and  fully  corrob 
orate  all  the  above  as  given  by  J.  S.  Sanderson,  except  that  I  did  not  buy  them. 
And  further  suith  not. 

LEWIS  BARNUM. 

Both  sworn  and  subscribed  to  before  me  at  Denver,  Colo,  this  18th  day  of  July,  A. 
D.  1874. 

ORSON  BROOKS, 
United  States  Commissioner. 


TERRITORY  OF  COLORADO, 

Arapahoe  County,  ss : 

Personally  appeared  before  me,  W.  W.  Denister,  a  justice  of  the  peace  in  and  for  the 
county  aforesaid,  John  Andrew,  being  of  lawful  age,  and  being  first  duly  sworn,  on 
oath  says  that  on  or  about  the  1st  day  of  June,  A.  D.  1872,  one  brown  horse  pony 
about  twelve  yearsold,  branded  W  on  the  near  side  and  17  on  theoff  hip,  estrayed  away 
from  my  camp,  about  fifteen  miles  from  Denver,  on  the  cut-off  road  leading  to  the 
iStates  ;  and  that  I  next  saw  him  yesterday  in  the  possession  of  a  Ute  Indian  ;  and  that 
I  never  sold  the  said  pony  or  authorized  any  one.  to  take  him  from  my  possession,  and 
that  1  am  lawfully  entitled  to  the  same. 

his 
JOHN  +  ANDREW. 

mark. 
Attest :  E.  B.  SLBITII. 

Subscribed  and  sworn  to  before  me  this  22d  day  of  July,  A.  D.  1872. 

W.  W.  DENISTER,  J.  P. 


TERRITORY  OF  COLORADO, 

County  of  Arapahoe,  ss : 

John  S.  McCool  of  Denver,  in  the  county  of  Arapahoe,  and  Territory  of  Colorado, 
being  duly  sworn  according  to  law,  deposes  and  says: 

That  a  certain  black  or  brown  pony,  with  some  white,  on  both  hind  feet  and  white 
spot  iu  forehead  and  saddle  marks  upon  back  and  sides,  about  twelve  years  of  age, 
with  heavy  mane  and  tail,  now  held  by  Mr.  Thompson,  auditor  of  this  Territory,  said 
to  have  been  stolen  and  claimed  by  Ute  Indians  was  formerly  owned  by  the  said  de 
ponent,  and  that  he  bought  said  pony  of  George  Hecock,  of  Gilpin  County,  Territory 
aforesaid,  iu  October,  A.  D.  1870,  and  sold  said  pony  to  Theophilus  Grosclaude,  of 
JDouglas  County,  Territory  aforesaid,  in  April,  A.  D.  1871.  And  that  said  pouy  had 
been  in  the  possession  of  and  owned  by  the  said  George  Hecock  for  more  than  two 


142  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

years  previous  to  the  purchase  of  said  pony  by  the  deponent,  and  that  the  said  Gros- 
clunde  is  now  the  just  and  lawful  owner  of  said  pony.  And  said  deponent  further  saitli 
not.  • 

JOHN  S.  McCOOL. 

Subscribed  and  sworn  to  before  me  this  llth  day  of  March,  A.  D.  1872. 

Witness  rcy  hand  and  notarial  seal. 

[SEAL.]  JOHN  \V.  WEBSTER, 

Notary  Public. 


THE  TERRITORY  OF  COLORADO, 

County  of  Arapahoe,  ss  : 

Theophilus  Grosclande,  of  the  county  of  Douglas,  in  said  Territory,  being  first  duly, 
sworn  as  hereafter  certified,  deposes  and  says,  that  he  is  the  owner  of  a  certain  gelding 
pony  now  in  possession  of  the  Ute  Indians  in  the  city  of  Denver ;  that  said  pony  is  de 
scribed  as  follows  :  of  dark  brown  color,  with  white  strip  in  his  face,  and  one  white 
hind  foot.  Pie  further  deposes  and  says  that  said  pony  was  taken  from  his  possession 
at  the  said  county  of  Douglas,  on  the  4th  day  of  March,  A.  D.  1872,  by  a  baud  of  said 
Ute  Indians.  Affiant  further  says  that  he  bought  the  said  pony  of  J.  S.  McCool,  of 
Denver,  some  time  about  the  month  of  April,  A.  D.  1871. 

THEOPHILUS  GROSCLANDE. 

Subscribed  in  my  presence  and  sworn  to  before  me  this  4th  dav  of  March,  A.  D.  1872 

HENRY  A.  CLOUGH, 

Probate  Judge,  Arapahoe  County,  Colorado. 


Also,  Charles  McCool,  being  duly  sworn  deposes  PS  follows:  I  am  the  son  of  J.  S. 
McCool,  of  Denver ;  my  age  is  fourteen  years;  I  am  acquainted  with  the  pony  de 
scribed  in  the  foregoing  affidavit  signed  by  Theophilus  Grosclande  ;  I  knew  him  when 
owned  by  my  father,  J.  S.  McCool ;  I  know  that  my  father  sold  said  pony  to  Theophilus 
Grosclande  in  or  about  the  mouth  of  April,  1871 ;  I  further  say  that  I  have  s^en  said 
pony  this  day  in  the  possession  of  the  Ufce  Indians  and  have  no  hesitation  in  saying 
that  I  fully  identify  the  pony  as  being  the  same  as  was  owned  by  J.  S.  McCool  and  by 
him  sold  to  said  Grosclande. 

CHARLES  McCOOL. 

Subscribed  and  sworn  to  before  me  on  this  4th  day  of  March,  A.  D.  1872. 

HENRY  A.  CLOUGH, 
Probate  Judge,  Arapahoe  County,  Colorado. 


I  have  also  letters  from  well-known  parties  in  that  country  describing1 
the  depredations  committed  upon  them.  They  are  all  indorsed  as  to 
what  disposition  was  made  of  their  complaints.  I  will  not  take  the 
time  of  the  committee  by  reading  them. 

Q.  Please  proceed  now  to  the  immediate  cause,  whether  direct  or  in 
direct,  which  brought  about  this  trouble  between  the  Utes  and  the 
agency,  or  between  the  Utes  and  the  soldiers.  Please  state  anything 
that  you  know  which  in  your  judgment  tended  to  cause  the  Ute  out 
break — what  occasioned  the  dissatisfaction  on  the  part  of  the  Indians, 
or  what  necessitated  the  moving  of  the  troops  in  that  direction. — A.  I 
would  like  to  give  my  opinion  in  regard  to  the  encroachments  alleged 
to  have  been  made  on  the  reservation.  I  know  it  to  be  the  fact  that 
there  have  not  been  any  encroachments  from  having  lived  there  during 
the  last  two  years  and  a  half,  and  having  been  personally  acquainted 
with  all  the  people  who  live  on  the  northern  border  in  Routt  County 
and  a  great  many  further  north  in  Wyoming;  also  all  of  those  who 
live  on  the  northeastern  border  of  the  reservation.  I  know  positively 
that  none  of  them  have  ever  gone  on  the  reservation  with  the  intention 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  143 

of  making  any  location  or  have  ever  expressed  any  desire  to  go  there 
for  that  purpose.  No  parties  have  come  through  the  country  border 
ing  on  the  northern  part  of  the  reservation  for  any  such  purpose  or  I 
should  have  known  it.  Further  than  that,  I  know  that  persons  who 
have  endeavored  to  pass  across  the  reservation  from  Utah  to  South 
western  Wyoming  for  the  purpose  of  going  to  Leadville  and  vicinity 
have  invariably  been  turned  back  by  the  Indians,  and  forced  to  go 
around  an  additional  distance  of  150  miles  in  the  face  of  the  fact  that 
they  had  assured  the  Indians  that  they  did  not  desire  to  stop  on  the 
reservation  only  long  enough  to  camp  where  they  happened  to  be  over 
taken  by  night,  and  that  it  would  save  them  a  long  journey  around  (a 
great  many  having  started  late  and  being  afraid  to  undertake  this 
longer  journey),  but  in  no  case  have  they  been  allowed  to  proceed. 
Numbers  of  them  have  come  to  my  house,  which  was  on  Bear  River  by 
the  way  they  would  have  to  go  around,  and  told  me  their  stories. 

By  Mr.  WADDTLL  : 

Q.  How  much  of  the  reservation  would  they  have  had  to  cross  to  get 
to  Leadville? — A.  From  White  Kiver  it  would  not  exceed  80  to  90 
miles;  by  going  around  they  would  have  to  go  about  250  by  the  near 
est  route  through  the  Egeria  Park,  Middle  Park,  Hot  Sulphur  Springs, 
and  Georgetown.  The  Indians  have  always  claimed  that  country  lying 
on  the  north  of  the  reservation,  particularly  the  valleys  of  the  Bear  and 
Snake  Rivers,  as  their  country.  .They  have  always  said  to  the  settlers 
there,  myself  among  the  number,  that  that  was  Ute  country.  They 
have  always  been  accustomed  to  hunting  there.  It  is  probably  as  fine 
hunting  ground  as  there  is  in  that  country.  In  the  spring  time  they 
follow  the  game  up  the  valleys  as  the  snow  melts,  clear  up  to  the  bord 
ers  of  the  North,  Middle,  and  Egeria  Parks,  staying  there,  as  a  general 
thing,  until  the  snow  drives  the  game  back  again.  Sometimes  small 
parties  of  them  will  go  back  to  the  reservation  after  their  supplies,  but 
generally  they  are  off  the  reservation  six  or  eight  months  in  the  year. 

By  Mr.  GUNTER  : 

Q.  Did  they  claim  that  as  hunting  ground  merely,  or  that  they  had 
a  right  to  the  land  ? — A.  Most  of  them  have  claimed  that  they  had  a 
right  to  the  land;  that  they  never  agreed  to  this  boundary  which  is 
fixed  on  the  map,  and  that  consequently  they  were  going  toehold  that 
land,  and  white  men  must  not  stay  there.  They  had  never  made  any 
attack  upon  the  whites  up  to  the  time  of  this  outbreak,  but  that  has 
been  the  drift  of  their  conversation.  They  have  threatened  settlers 
time  and  again  that  they  must  not  stay  there  5  that  they  were  trespass 
ing  upon  Indian  country,  and  that  it  would  not  be  safe  for  them  to  stay. 
They  have  in  every  way  tried  to  annoy  them  by  setting  fires  and  driv 
ing  their  stock  away. 

Q.  Is  that  portion  of  the  State  that  you  are  in  adjoining  the  reserva 
tion  a  mining  or  agricultural  country?— A,  It  is  an  agricultural  and 
stock  country.  Most  of  the  people  in  there  are  engaged  in  raising  cat 
tle  and  horses. 

Q.  The  mining  parties  are  south  of  you,  along  the  border  I—A.  They 
are  at  about  the  center  of  the  reservation.  There  isno  mining  camp,  that 
I  know  of,  nearer  to  the  Bear  River  country  than  that,  and  none  on  the 
reservation.  In  regard  to  the  killing  of  whites,  testified  to  by  Governor 
Pitkin,  I  know  the  history  of  those  murders,  although  I  am  not  thor 
oughly  familiar  with  the  circumstances  of  all  of  them.  Some  of  them 
were  investigated  by  me  while  I  was  agent,  notably  that  of  Mr.  Marks- 
bury,  who  was  killed  near  Floracyuth,  in  El  Paso  County. 


144  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

By  Mr.  WADDILL  : 

Q.  That  was  where  they  claimed  that  he  was  about  to  kill  an  Indian  ? 
A.  Yes,  sir;  bat  there  was  no  such  testimony  in  the  case.  I  had  the 
Indian  arrested  and  brought  him  to  Denver  and  kept  him  three 
weeks  in  jail  trying  to  find  testimony,  but  we  could  not  find  any  to  show 
that  that  was  the  case.  In  fact,  we  could  not  show  absolutely  that  he 
had  killed  Mr.  Marksbnry,  although  there  was  no  doubt  that  he  must 
have  done  so. 

By  Mr.  WELLBORN  : 

Q.  What  is  the  width  of  the  reservation  at  the  mouth  ? — A.  About 
one  hundred  and  twenty-five  miles  wide  and  about  one  hundred  and 
fifty  long. 

Q.  You  think  if  there  had  been  any  prospecting  parties  or  camps 
crossing  the  northern  boundary  of  that  reservation  you  would  have 
known  of  it? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  I  would  have  been  likely  to  have 
heard  of  it.  There  are  certain  routes  that  are  followed  in  that  country. 
The  main  trail  through  the  country  from  Utah  to  Southwestern  Wyo 
ming  is  down  across  Snake  River,  directly  north  of  the  White  River 
Agency,  down  Fortification  Creek  to  White  River  Agency,  within  fifteen 
miles  of  where  I  live,  and  we  had  mail  facilities  there  the  last  year  and 
a  halt,  too,  one  route  from  Rawlius  to  White  River,  and  the  other  from 
Georgetown  to  Windsor  at  the  crossing  of  Bear  River  by  this  road,  and, 
of  course,  with  a  scattered  population  like  that,  we  are  always  on  the 
lookout  for  any  new  people  who  come  into  the  country  and  it  is  reported 
through  the  settlement  very  quickly,  as  we  are  curious  to  know  who 
they  are,  where  they  are  from,  and  where  they  are  going.  These,  I 
believe,  are  all  the  facts  I  have  to  submit.  If  the  committee  have  any 
questions  to  ask  I  shall  be  very  glad  to  answer  them. 
By  Mr.  WELLBORN: 

Q.  Governor  Pitkin  said  there  were  no  well-defined  monuments  on 
that  line.  Is  that  line  well  fixed  by  reputation  I — A.  Yes,  sir ;  it  is  well 
understood.  I  think  monuments  have  been  placed  there;  but  the  sur 
veyor  who  was  in  there  last  summer,  Major  Oakes,  told  me  that  he 
was  informed  about  where  the  monuments  ought  to  be  but  could  not 
find  them,  and  he  apprehended  that  the  Utes  had  destroyed  them,  be 
cause  they  did  not  wish  the  boundary  to  be  marked  by  any  such  monu 
ments. 

By  Mr.  GTJNTER  : 

Q.  Those  depredations  of  which  you  speak,  stealing  .property  and 
killing  people,  what  band  of  the  Ute  tribe  perpetrated  those  offenses  ? 

The  WITNESS.  Do  you  mean  those  in  the  vicinity  of  Denver,  or  in  the 
northern  part  f 

Mr.  GUNTER.  Any  and  all  of  them,  so  far  as  you  know.  The  idea  is 
to  find  who  of  them  are  lawless,  and  which  bauds  are  peaceable  and 
orderly,  if  any. 

A.  So  far  as  those  about  Denver,  to  which  these  letters  relate,  are  con 
cerned,  they  were  usually  committed  by  bauds  made  up  of  delegations 
from  all  the  seven  bauds  of  Utes.  They  generally  met  there  at  certain 
times  of  the  year  as  a  starting  point  for  the  buffalo  ground.  There  were 
Indians  from  White  River,  as  also  from  all  the  southern  bands.  There 
are  three  bands  in  the  north  and  four  in  the  south,  and  there  was  gen 
erally  a  delegation  from  each  baud.  So  far  as  these  depredations  on 
the  north  are  concerned,  they  were  almost  exclusively  perpetrated  by 
White  River  Utes. 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  145 

By  Mr.  Pours  D  : 

Q.  You  speak  of  having  caused  the  arrest  of  this  Indian  accused  of 
the  murder  of  Mr.  Marksbury  ;  was  he  arrested  on  or  off  the  reserva 
tion  ? — A.  About  65  miles  east  of  the  reservation,  as  I  recollect  the  dis 
tance. 

Q.  Do  you  understand  that  the  State  or  the  United  States  have  such 
jurisdiction  still  over  the  reservation  as  to  cause  the  arrest  upon  a  res 
ervation  of  Indians  a  cused  of  crime? — A.  I  understand  that  such  is 
not  the  case. 

Q.  Then  the  Indians  there  understand  that  officers  of  the  government 
have  not  the  right  to  enter  upon  their  reservation  for  the  purpose  of  ar 
resting  them? — A.  I  should  judge  that  they  did  understand  it,  or  at 
least  that  Douglas  did  from  what  he  said  to  the  sheriff;  that  he  had  no 
business  ou  the  reservation. 

Q.  Then  do  you  understand  that  undertaking  to  compel  the  arrest 
of  these  persons  accused  of  burning  houses  by  the  military,  and  the  en 
tering  of  the  military  upon  that  reservation  was  regarded  by  the  Indians 
as  a  declaration  of  war  upon  them  ? — A.  O,  no ;  not  at  all. 

Q.  Or  as  undertaking  to  enforce  a  right  which  the  government  in 
their  opinion  does  not  hold! — A.  No,  sir;  not  at  all.  The  Indians  are 
not  fools  nor  are  they  children  as  a  great  many  people  suppose.  They 
are  thoroughly  posted  in  all  these  matters.  They  knew  exactly  why 
the  civil  officer  was  sent  there  and  why  the  troops  were  coming.  I  think 
they  had  made  up  their  minds  to  destroy  that  agency  anyhow.  It 
would  not  have  made  any  difference  whether  the  soldiers  came  there  or 
not.  I  think  they  were  dissatisfied  with  their  agent,  and  determined 
that  he  should  not  carry  out  the  orders  that  he  had  in  regard  to  plow 
ing  and  school-teaching,  and  if  they  could  not  have  prevented  it  in  any 
other  way  they  would  have  killed  him  anyhow,  probably  killed  the  en 
tire  party,  and  then  said  that  they  had  got  into  a  fuss  amongst  them 
selves  and  killed  each  other. 

Q.  But  from  what  you  say  the  attempt  to  make  these  arrests  on  the 
reservation  was  going  beyond  the  general  authority  of  the  govern 
ment?— A.  Yes;  I  had  some  doubts  about  the  matter  myself,  but  in 
consultation  with  the  judge  who  issued  this  warrant  he  informed  me 
that  it  could  be  served  on  the  reservation  and  so  indorsed  it,  ordering 
the  sheriff  to  serve  it  anywhere  in  the  State. 

By  Mr.  GUNTER,  : 

Q.  If  I  understand  you  correctly  the  judge  indorsed  upon  the  writ  to 
execute  it  anywhere  within  the  State,  but  gave  no  authority  to  execute 
within  the  reservation. — A.  The  indorsement  was  a  anywhere  within 
the  State  of  Colorado."  That  was  intended  to  cover  the  reservation, 
because  we  discussed  that  very  question,  and  I  told  him  what  my  doubts 
were  in  regard  to  the  authority  of  a  civil  officer  on  the  reservation,  and 
he  said  "  I  will  put  an  indorsement  here  which  will  settle  that  question." 

Q.  Was  he  the  judge  of  the  circuit  court  or  of  the  district  court  of  the 
United  States?— A.  He  was  the  judge  of  the  State  district  court  and  is 
now  a  judge  of  the  supreme  court  of  the  State. 

By  Mr.  POUND  : 

Q   In  your  experience  and  in  the  discharge  of  your  official  duties  as 
Indian  agent  and  timber  agent  you  would  not  undertake  to  serve  a  pro 
cess  or  ask  to  have  one  served  upon  a  reservation  for  the  arrest  of  an 
accused  Indian,  would  you? — A.  No    I  do  not  think  I  would. 
Q.  When  was  that  attempt  to  arrest  the  parties  at  the  agency,  as  de- 
H.  Mis.  38 10 


146  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

tailed  by  you,  made! — A.  I  do  not  know  that  I  can  fix  the  date  ex 
actly.     It  was  early  in  September  last;  1  think  about  the  9th. 

Q.  Have  you  stated  all  you  know  of  your  own  knowledge  or  from  well 
authenticated  sources  as  to  the  causes  of  this  outbreak? — A.  Yes,  sir: 
I  think  I  have.  My  impression  is  that  it  is  simply  the  natural  conse 
quence  of  utter  depravity  and  cussedness  on  the  pait  of  the  Indians.  I 
do  not  know  anything  else. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Is  there  or  is  there  not  a  good  deal  of  feeling  in  Colorado  against 
those  Indians  f — A.  I  can  only  speak  for  myself.  There  is  a  good  deal 
of  feeling  on  my  part. 

Q.  How  is  it  about  the  citizens  generally  ? — A.  I  imagine  that  they 
do  not  feel  very  kindly  towards  them. 

Q.  Has  that  not  been  manifested  to  the  Indians  in  such  a  way  as  to 
get  up  a  good  deal  of  bad  feeling  between  them  and  the  whites'? — A. 
No.  I  think  not  particularly,  not  up  to  the  time  of  this  massacre.  I 
think  the  people  generally  before  that  time  submitted  very  quietly  to  a 
great  many  of  their  annoyances  and  have  not  felt  particularly  bitter  to 
wards  them.  There  have  been  a  great  many  cases  where  these  border 
settlers  have  acceded  to  their  demands  for  food  and  everything  of  that 
kind,  have  treated  them  kindly,  and  endeavored  to  avoid  any  appear 
ance  of  ill-feeling  towards  them.  That  has  been  my  experience. 

Q.  What  has  been  the  character  of  these  Indians  in  their  relations  to 
the  whites  up  to  the  time  of  this  outbreak  ? — A.  Well,  they  have  always 
been  looked  upon  as  what  we  call  peaceable  Indians,  not  warlike. 

Q.  Were  they  well  disposed  ? — A.  They  were  always  exceedingly  well 
disposed  when  about  the  cities  or  large  mining  cam.ps  ;  exceedingly 
well  behaved  indeed,  but  if  they  got  away  from  the  cities  or  camps  and 
around  solitary  ranches  or  a  ranche  where  there  was  a  woman  at  home 
alone  and  the  man  away  they  would  act  very  differently  ;  take  posses 
sion  of  the  house  and  order  things  about. 

Q.  Was  that  conduct  very  general,  roaming  outside  of  the  reserva 
tion  where  they  would  h'nd  a  rauche  unprotected? — A.  Yes,  sir;  very 
common.  These  complaints  that  I  have  put  in  here  as  evidence  are 
only  a  very  small  portion  of  the  number  that  came  to  my  knowledge.  I 
investigated  and  settled  a  great  many  without  reporting  them  to  the 
Commissioner.  There  were  a  great  many  cases  where  I  did  not  think 
it  was  necessary  to  worry  him  with  a  long  report,  and  I  took  personal 
cognizance  of  them  and  settled  them  in  the  best  manner  I  could,  gen 
erally  satisfactory  to  both  parties. 
By  Mr.  HASKELL  : 

Q.  You  have  testified  to  the  filing  of  some  $6,000,000  of  claims  on  the 
part  of  various  citizens  ot  Colorado  for  damages  committed  by  the 
Utes ;  is  it  a  matter  of  common  notoriety  in  the  State  and  along  the 
border,  the  murders  of  white  citizens  by  the  Indians  in  the  last  fifteen 
years? — A.  Yes,  sir;  it  is  very  notorious. 

Q.  In  your  judgment,  and  from  the  information  that  comes  in  that 
way,  how  many  such  murders  have  been  committed  ? — A.  I  know  of 
over  forty  that  have  been  committed  by  Utes  in  Colorado. 
By  Mr.  GUNTBB  : 

Q.  Within  what  length  of  time  ? — A.  Within  the  last  eighteen  years, 
he  greater  portion  of  them  within  the  last  ten  years. 

By  Mr.  HASKELL  : 
Q.  Your  opinion  is  that  the  unpleasantness  between  the  whites  of 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK  147 

Colorado  ami  the  Iiuliaus  arises  out  of  these  depredations  upon  the 
property  of  the  citizens  and  these  murders.  That  is  the  grievance  that 
the  whites  have  against  the  Indians  ? — A.  Yes  ;  that  would  be  a  natural 
feeling,  of  course.  What  grievance  the  Indians  have  I  do  not  know 
and  cannot  imagine. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  any  Indians  have  been  killed  by  white  peo 
ple  in  Colorado! — A.  I  have  never  heard  of  but  one,  and  that  was  the 
Indian  who  was  killed  in  Middle  Park  in  September,  1878,  I  think.  I 
heard  the  story  from  the  lips  of  two  eye-witnesses,  fie  was  a  member 
of  a  party  of  Indians  who  had  been  out  on  the  plains  hunting  antelope 
aud  chasing  wild  horses,  and  who  it  was  supposed  killed  Mr.  McLean, 
the  circumstances  of  which  were  testified  to  by  Governor  Pitkin.  After 
this  murder  the  party  broke  up  and  the  baud  in  which  this  man  was 
went  across  the  mountains  on  their  way  to  White  River,  and  stopped 
at  White  Sulphur  Springs.  On  the  way  over  they  threatened  a  good 
many  people,  and  at  the  place  called  "Junction"  they  took  possession 
of  a  meadow  where  a  man  was  cutting  hay  and  had  part  of  it  stacked. 
They  threw  down  the  fences,  drove  their  ponies  in,  and  when  he  begun 
to  remonstrate  they  ordered  him  away.  He  went  to  the  house  and  got 
his  horse  and  quietly  rode  to  Hot  Sulphur  Springs  and  reported,  and  a 
party  started  out  to  assist  him  in  driving  them  off  his  property.  This 
Indian  was  recognized  by  one  of  the  posse  as  an  Indian  whom  he  had 
seen  in  North  Park  years  before,  when  he  was  in  there  with  other 
miners;  he  had  taken  the  hint  and  left,  but  the  others  who  remained 
were  killed  afterwards  by  the  Indians.  This  Indian  aud  this  white  man 
recognized  each  other,  and  as  the  white  man  rode  past  the  Indian  to 
get  a  nearer  view  of  him  the  Indian  was  sitting  with  his  gun  across  the 
pommel  of  the  saddle,  aud  he  threw  it  over  and,  holding  it  by  the  stock, 
struck  at  the  white  man  and  immediately  recovered  it  again,  and  tried 
to  pull  the  case  off  it  (they  generally  carry  their  guns  in  a  leather  case), 
but  there  happened  to  be  a  hole  in  the  case  which  prevented  it  from 
coming  off  easily,  and  the  other  man  seeing  the  motion,  raised  his  gun, 
which  had  no  case  on  it,  and  shot  the  Indian  dead. 

Q.  Was  there  any  other  loss  of  life  in  that  encounter  ? — A.  Not  in 
that  encounter. 

Q.  Was  there  any  immediately  subsequent  to  that  by  either  the  same 
party  of  Indians  or  the  same  party  of  whites  ? — A.  This  same  party  of 
Indians  broke  up  immediately  after  this  encounter  and  started  to  White 
River,  aud  a  few  miles  below  Hot  Sulphur  Springs  they  saw  a  man 
named  Elliot  standing  in  his  door  yard  chopping  wood,  aud  they  rode 
up  to  his  fence  and  shot  him.  He  did  not  give  them  the  slightest  prov 
ocation  ;  he  was  attending  to  his  own  business  and  did  not  speak  to  , 
them  at  all,  I  believe. 

The  following  are  the  additional  letters  and  statements  referred  to  in 
the  foregoing  testimony. 

Adjourned  to  Thursday,  February  5,  1880. 


WASHINGTON,  February  5,  1880. 
WILLIAM  N.  BYERS  sworn  and  examined. 
By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  State  your  residence  and  occupation. — Answer.  I  am  post 
master  at  Denver,  Colo.,  at  present. 


148  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK 

The  CHAIRMAN.  We  are  investigating  the  late  Ute  outbreak,  and 
bave  sent  for  you  to  give  us  such  information  as  you  may  have  on  the 
subject.  If  you  know  anything  which  will  throw  any  light  upon  it  please 
state  it. 

The  WITNESS.  Do  you  desire  that  my  statement  should  go  back  any 
considerable  length  of  time? 

The  CHAIRMAN.  If  you  are  satisfied  that  it  will  have  any  bearing  on 
the  subject  we  are  investigating.  We  do  not  want  any  evidence  which 
may  or  may  not  show  that  the  Utes  should  or  should  not  be  driven  from 
Colorado.  What  we  want  is  anything  which  will  throw  light  on  the 
cause  of  the  Ute  outbreak,  and  you  can  carry  that  back  a  year  or  two. 

The  WITNESS.  I  think  I  can  consistently  carry  it  back  about  five 
years  for  the  first  indications  of  dissatisfaction,  and  even  before  that 
time  there  were  indications  of  dissatisfaction,  which  gradually  grew 
and  culminated  in  this  outbreak.  About  the  year  1875  was  the  begin 
ning  of  my  intimate  acquaintance  with  the  White  Eiver  Utes.  At  that 
time  they  called  themselves  the  "  Middle  Park  Utes,"  or,  at  times, 
"Denver  Utes,"  because  they  had  got  in  the  habit  of  spending  a  good 
deal  of  time  about  Denver,  where  there  were  a  great  many  attractions 
for  them  ;  but 'they  were  generally  known  as  Middle  Park  Utes,  because 
that  park  was  rather  the  center  of  their  hunting-grounds  and  more  their 
place  of  resort  than  any  other.  In  1875  they  first  began  to  express 
their  dissatisfaction  to  me  with  the  white  occupation  of  the  country, 
or  a  portion  of  the  country,  which  they  claimed  as  theirs,  and  also  their 
dissatisfaction  with  the  chieftainship  of  Ouray,  and  they  told  me  at  that 
time  that  they  were  determined  to  either  depose  or  destroy  him,  because 
they  said  he  was  an  interloper ;  that  he  was  not  a  true  Ute,  and  they 
desired  to  have  one  of  the  White  Eiver  or  Middle  Park  Utes  for  their 
head  chief.  I  suppose  you  gentlemen  understand  their  tribal  relations; 
that  they  are  a  number  of  tribes  confederated  together,  each  one  of  the 
tribes  having  its  own  chief  of  the  tribe;  and  Ouray  being  recognized  as 
head  chief  of  the  confederation.  He  had  been  chosen  from  the  Los 
Pinos  branch  of  the  Ute  nation,  and  the  White  River  Utes  were  very 
jealous  of  him.  The  divisions  are  substantially  the  same  now  as  they 
were  then ;  although  there  are  all  the  time  changes  taking  place  by 
defections,  Indians  going  from  one  tribe  to  another  because  of  local 
dissatisfaction  or  local  quarrels,  sometimes  caused  by  personal  assaults 
or  murders  committed  by  one  Indian  upon  another.  On  such  occasions 
the  murderer  generally  leaves  his  own  baud  and  goes  to  another.  I 
know  a  number  of  instances  of  that  kind.  That  summer  I  was  in 
Middle  Park  making  some  improvements,  and  this  WThite  Eiver  band 
came  to  my  place.  They  were  under  the  leadership  of  Pant,  an  old 
man,  but  Antelope  was  at  that  time  their  recognized  tribal  chief.  They 
came  to  my  place  I  should  say  in  July.  Antelope  was  not  with  them. 
They  explained  to  me  that  he  had  gone  on  a  visit  to  the  Southern  Utes, 
and  then  they  went  on  to  state  that  they  were  getting  up  a  combina 
tion  to  effect  the  destruction  of  Ouray,  and  that  Antelope  had  gone 
down  to  look  over  the  ground,  and  hold  such  intercourse  as  he  could 
with  the  Southern  Utes,  with  a  view  to  that  final  result.  This  was  in 
1875.  On  my  asking  their  reasons  for  disliking  Ouray  they  said,  first, 
that  he  was  an  interloper,  not  a  true  Ute,  and  in  the  second  place,  that 
he  had  defrauded  the  White  Eiver  band  in  the  treaty  of  1868;  that 
money  had  been  paid  to  him,  and  kept  by  him  and  his  friends,  which 
should  have  been  divided  among  the  Indians.  They  were  very  bitter 
and  outspoken  against  Ouray  and  against  some  white  men  who  were 
concerned  at  that  time  in  the  management  of  Indian  affairs  in  and 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

about  the  Southern  Agency,  and  one  man  who  was  a  contractor  for 
supplying  the  Southern  Agency.  They  classed  them  all  together,  and 
said  that  they  were  using  the  Utes'  money  and  dividing  it  among  them 
selves.  They  stayed  there  at  my  place  a  number  of  days,  and  then 
moved  on  to  White  River.  Afterwards  they  expressed  again  and  agam 
the  same  dissatisfaction  with  Ouray,  and  w:th  the  occupation  by  the 
whites  of  the  North  Park  and  the  country  north  of  the  reservation, 
which  is  now  called  the  "  Snake  River  country,"  and  designated  on  the 
map  as  Routt  County.  They  did  not  recognize  the  treaty  of  1868,  by 
which  those  lands  had  been  sold — the  lauds  lying  north  and  northeast 
of  the  reservation,  including  the  North  and  the  Middle  Park  and  what 
is  now  Routt  County.  They  denied  that  it  had  been  ceded,  and  said 
that  it  was  Ute  country. 

By  Mr.  DEERING  : 

Q.  Do  they  still  persist  in  that  denial  ?— A.  Yes,  sir ;  they  still  per 
sist  in  that  denial  in  talking  with  any  one  who  will  not  dispute  them  di 
rectly,  but  if  any  one  disputes  them,  they  then  admit  that  there  was  a 
treaty,  but  say  that  it  was  not  a  just  treaty  to  them ;  that  it  was  made 
by  Ouray  and  others  of  the  Ute  Nation  without  the  consent  of  the  mass 
of  the  nation. 

Q.  Then  that  accounts,  to  some  extent,  for  the  fact  that  they  have 
frequently  undertaken  to  drive  out  miners  and  others  from  that  portion 
of  the  country.  —A.  Yes,  sir  ;  every  year  since,  as  an  attempt  has  been 
made  at  settling  that  part  of  the  country,  they  have  ordered  the  people 
out  I  have  been  ordered  out  a  number  of  times  myself.  Finally,  as  a 
compromise,  about  1875  they  said  that  we  might  build  two  houses  in 
Middle  Park,  that  I  might  build  one  on  the  north  side  of  Grand 
River,  and  a  man  named  Ganson  on  the  south  side.  We  had  already 
built  those  houses,  and  they  consented  that  they  should  remain,  but 
they  objected  to  any  more  being  built,  because  they  said  it  was  on  Ute 
ground,  and  they  wanted  to  save  it  for  Ute  deer  and  antelope.  They 
claimed  that  they  had  been  wronged  in  this  treaty  and  they  laid  the 
blame  principally  at  that  time  on  Ouray  and  other  influential  men  who 
had  acted,  they  said,  without  authority.  The  year  before  we  took  in 
stock  and  fenced  the  ground.  They  objected  bitterly  to  the  bringing  in 
of  cows ;  they  did  not  object  to  horses,  but  they  objected  to  cows,  and 
to  fences  being  built,  and  to  the  plowing  of  the  ground.  They  think 
that  the  coming  of  cows  is  immediately  followed  by  the  occupation  of 
the  country  by  permanent  settlements.  Horses  they  do  not  connect  so 
much  with  permanent  settlement  as  with  the  transient  travel  through 
the  country. 

Mr.  DEERING.  They  regard  the  cow  as  leading  the  advance  of  civili 
zation  °l 

The  WITNESS.  Yes,  sir ;  they  regard  them  as  indicating  the  settle 
ment  of  the  country. 

Mr.  WADDILL.  Then  their  idea  is  opposition  to  settlement. 

The  WITNESS.  Yes,  sir ;  they  seem  to  draw  the  line  at  the  introduc 
tion  of  cows,  the  building  of  fences,  and  the  plowing  of  the  ground.  In 
the  fall  of  that  year  after  we  had  made  a  good  many  improvements  in 
the  park  about  the  Hot  Sulphur  Springs,  Colorow  came  there.  I  took 
him  into  my  house  and  he  ate  at  my  table  and  slept  in  my  house  for  a 
number  of  days.  Finally  a  party  of  railway  superintendents  and  gen 
eral  agents  came  over  there  on  a  kind  of  pleasure  excursion.  They 
came  to  my  house  in  the  afternoon.  1  was  superintending  some  work 
outside.  Colorow  had  been  sleeping  and  had  just  got  up.  He  was  natu 
rally  a  great  curiosity  to  them.  He  could  talk  some  English  and  some 


150  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

Spanish  and  lie  really  was  the  most  characteristic  of  any  man,  perhaps, 
among  the  White  River  Utes.  He  was  telling  these  men  about  how  the 
Indians  were  imposed  upon  by  the  settlers  coming  into  that  country, 
and  particularly  by  my  own  occupation  of  the  country,  and  he  denounced 
me  very  bitterly  in  my  hearing,  although  he  did  not  think,  I  suppose, 
that  I  was  paying  any  attention  to  his  conversation.  After  he  had  got 
through  with'his  abuse  I  stepped  up  to  him  and  told  him  that  he  had 
enjoyed  my  hospitality  a  great  number  of  times,  had  slept  in  my  house 
and  eaten  at  my  table,  and  that  this  was  the  reward  I  received  for  it, 
his  personal  abuse  of  me  to  these  gentlemen  who  had  come  there  on  a  visit 
to  me.  He  seemed  to  realize  the  justice  of  my^complaint,  and  from  that 
time  on  he  never  came  near  me  or  spoke  to  me  until  the  fall  of  1877, 
something  more  than  two  years  later.  Colorow  had  generally  led  in  the 
warnings  to  white  settlers  to  leave  the  country;  he  had  been  the  most 
aggressive  of  any  of  the  Utes,  the  most  independent,  outspoken,  and 
decided  in  his  warnings,  and  had  generally  been  the  spokesman,  not 
only  in  that  part  of  the  country  but  also  up  the  Blue  River  Valley  on 
the  borders  of  the  mining  settlement,  on  Swan  River,  the  headwaters 
of  Blue  River,  Georgia  Gulch,  Buffalo  Flats,  and  the  other  mining  camps. 
It  was  very  common  for  him  to  go  in  there  and  intimidate  women  and 
children.  I  have  known  of  his  going  to  a  house,  and  finding  a  woman 
at  home  alone,  take  her  by  the  hair  and  make  the  motion  of  scalping, 
and  warn  her  that  if  she  and  her  people  did  not  leave  within  a  certain 
number  of  u  sleeps"  he  would  scalp  them.  I  never  knew  of  his  going  far 
ther  than  those  threats,  but  that  created,  of  course,  a  great  deal  of  alarm. 
I  never  paid  any  attention  to  his  threats,  because  I  never  was  in  any  fear  of 
violence  at  his  bands  or  any  others,  but  a  great  many  were.  Whenever 
the  Indians  came  in  and  made  these  threats  the  timid  people  "  stam 
peded,"  as  we  say.  This  was  especially  the  case  with  strangers  or  other 
parties  who  were  traveling  about ;  camping  parties,  which  are  very  com 
mon  in  the  summer  season.  Whenever  the  Indians  came  across  that 
kind  of  a  party  they  generally  intimidated  them  and  exacted  from  them 
supplies — provisions,  flour,  tobacco,  and  ammunition — and  they  usually 
warned  them  to  leave  within  a  certain  number  of  days — two  "sleeps," 
meaning  two  days.  They  gave  them  two  days  to  get  out  of  the  country, 
and  they  generally  got  out.  That  has  occurred  every  season  since  I  have 
been  familiar  with  them  in  that  part  of  the  country  up  to  and  including 
last  season.  I  was  in  the  Middle  Park  in  the  early  part  of  the  last  sea 
son  before  they  came  in  there.  My  sou  spent  the  summer  and  fall  there, 
and  came  out  a  short  time  ago,  and  what  I  know  about  last  summer's 
operations  is  mainly  from  reports  that  he  and  others  have  given  me. 
The  Indians  drove  off  persons  who  were  prospecting  and  mining,  travel 
ing  through  the  country  and  camping,  and  new  settlers  who  had  gone 
in  to  make  homes.  These  parties  were  driven  out  of  the  Middle  and 
North  Parks  and  from  the  Bear  River  and  Snake  River  country.  The 
Indians  came  there  in  June.  I  left  the  park  the  1st  or  2d  of  June,  and 
they  have  been  there  since.  Shortly  after  1  left,  my  son  and  others  be 
gan  mining  for  the  season  on  the  headwaters  of  Muddy,  in  the  Middle 
Park.  Soon  after  they  got  to  work  a  party  of  Indians  came  there  and 
warned  them  to  leave  in  two  days,  and  after  giving  the  warning  they 
went  out,  and  in  their  presence  began  firing  the  prairie  and  the  timber. 
Tbe  men,  partly  through  fear  of  their  threats  and  partly  from  the  dis 
comfort  occasioned  by  the  smoke,  abandoned  their  work.  In  two  local 
ities  where  my  son  was,  they  had  abandoned  their  work  without  making 
a  clean  up  of  their  sluices.  In  the  fall  of  1877  I  was  on  Bear  River 
myself  north  of  the  reservation.  I  had  been  up  to  Hahn's  Peak.  I  was 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  151 

with  a  hunting  party  that  had  been  hunting  on  the  Elk  River,  and  I  had 
gone  over  from  there  to  Hahn's  Peak,  leaving  the  party  with  their 
main  camp  on  the  Bear  River,  and  had  appointed  a  certain  day  to  meet 
them  at  Steamboat  Springs.  I  came  down  to  Steamboat  Springs  two 
or  three  days  before  the  balance  of  the  party  came  up.  Soon  after  I 
reached  there  Colorow  came  to  the  springs,  and  when  he  saw  me  he  came 
up  and  offered  his  hand  to  shake  hands.  That  was  the  first  time  he  had 
spoken  to  me  since  our  little  quarrel  two  years  before.  He  said  that  his 
camp  was  up  the  river  a  short  distance,  and  that  Jack's  camp  was  also 
there.  Afterward,  the  remainder  of  my  party  came  up  and  we  moved 
up  the  river  about  a  mile,  and  were  there  in  camp  a  number  of  days, 
and  Colorow  and  Jack  and  members  of  their  party  were  frequently  at  our 
camp,  begging  and  trading  and  hanging  around  the  camp.  There  were  a 
great  number  of  fires  burning  in  the  neighborhood,  some  in  the  timber 
and  some  on  the  prairie.  I  remember  that  there  were  five  very  large 
fires,  three  of  them  entirely  up  on  the  slopes  of  the  mountains  in  the 
timber  ;  two  of  them  were  down  on  the  foot-hills  burning  over  ground 
that  was  mainly  prairie  but  with  clumps  and  groves  of  timber  here  and 
there.  I  asked  Colorow  why  they  had  kindled  the  fires  ;  he  said  it  was 
"to  make  heap  grass  next  spring  for  ponies."  I  directed  his  attention 
to  the  fact  that  most  of  the  fire  was  burning  in  the  mountains  where  no 
grass  grew,  and  he  declined  to  answer  any  questions  upon  that  subject. 
I  told  him  then  that  I  was  satisfied,  and  had  been  for  two  or  three 
years,  that  they  were  trying  to  destroy  the  value  of  the  country  for  the 
white  man ;  which  he  did  not  deny.  I  had  been  satisfied  for  two  or 
three  years  before  that  they  were  systematically  burning  the  timber  out 
side  the  reservation.  That  season  there  were  a  great  number  of  fires 
burning,  and  last  season  (1879)  they  pretty  well  completed  the  destruc 
tion  of  the  timber  over  all  the  country  north  of  the  reservation  and,  to 
my  knowledge,  of  the  country  east  of  the  northern  part  of  the  reserva 
tion. 

By  Mr.  WADDILL  : 

Q.  Did  these  fires  absolutely  kill  large  timber  ? — A.  Yes,  sir.  When 
a  fire  gets  to  sweeping  through  thosejforests  it  not  only  kills  everything, 
but  it  moves  so  rapidly  as  to  destroy  animals  and  human  life.  I  have 
known  men  and  horses  to  be  burned  to  death. 

By  Mr.  DEERING  : 

Q.  Do  I  understand  you  to  say  that  they  were  particular  to  burn,  the 
timber  on  the  north  and  east  of  the  reservation  without  burning  that 
on  the  reservation  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  They  seemed  to  distinguish  between  the  two  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  they 
distinguished  between  them  very  carefully  and  closely.  At  that  time 
there  was  very  little  living  timber  north  of  the  reservation.  They  even 
went  along  the  streams,  where  the  timber  was  in  small  groves,  and 
fired  it  in  a  great  number  of  places,  because  near  the  streams  and  in 
the  valleys  the  fire  would  not  extend  for  any  great  distance;  it  would  be 
cut  off  by  little  tributary  streams  or  by  sloughs,  and  to  overcome  these 
obstacles  they  would  go  around  and  fire  it  again. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Were  there  any  fires  on  the  reservation  ¥ — A.  In  the  fall  of  1878  I 
traveled  over  the  reservation  over  one  hundred  miles  in  pursuit  of  a 
band  of  Indians  who  had  committed  a  murder  in  Middle  Park  and  stolen 
a  band  of  horses.  That  was  the  first  time  I  had  been  over  the  line  of 
the  reservation.  We  struck  the  reservation  at  its  eastern  boundary, 


152  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

where  the  Grand  River  crosses  it*  and  we  traveled  diagonally  about  one 
hundred  miles  before  reaching  the  agency,  and  in  traveling  that  distance 
I  saw  not  more  than  five  hundred  acres  of  timber  killed  by  fire.  That 
proved  to  me  that  they  had  been  buruiog  systematically  off  the  reserva 
tion  and  preserving  the  timber  carefully  on  the  reservation.  Then,  after 
leaving  the  agency,  we  went  out  and  struck  the  northern  line.  We  left 
the  reservation  on  its  northern  line,  where  this  Milk  Creek  battle  oc 
curred,  and  the  moment  we  got  off  the  reservation  we  again  entered  a 
region  where  nearly  all  the  timber  was  killed  and  the  country  burned  over. 
In  passing  out  that  way  on  the  next  day  after  leaving  the  reservation 
line  we  met  Douglass  and  five  other  Indians,  accompanied  by  Curtis,  the 
interpreter,  going  into  the  reservation.  VVe  stopped  and  had  a  talk 
with  them,  and  I  called  their  attention  to  some  smoke  that  was  arising 
back  in  the  direction  from  which  they  had  come  along  their  trail,  and 
asked  if  they  had  noticed  those  fires  and  where  they  were.  They  con 
sulted  among  themselves,  and  then  explained  to  me,  through  the^inter- 
preter,  that  the  fire  was  a  long  way  off,  that  they  didn't  believe  they  had 
kindled  it,  but  that  it  might  have  started  from  their  camp-fire  the  night 
before.  We  met  them  just  after  we  had  started  from  our  noon  camp.  I 
directed  their  attention  to  the  fact  that  the  smoke  was  arising  between 
us  and  a  range  of  mountains  directly  in  advance  over  which  they  must 
have  come,  and  that  it  must  be  on  their  trail.  Finally,  Curtis  said  that 
it  might  have  started  by  the  throwing  down  of  a  match  which  had  been 
lighted  to  light  a  cigarette,  but  he  said,  "  You  will  ride  a  long  distance 
before  you  find  that  fire."  There  was  a  sharp  ridge  that  they  had  just 
come  over,  and  w  hen  we  crossed  the  ridge  we  saw  the  fire  not  more  than 
two  miles  from  the  place.  We  found  the  country  fired  in  three  places 
within  a  distance  of  half  a  mile,  which  had  not  yet  communicated  with 
each  other.  That  was  in  a  country  covered  by  grass  and  sage  brush, 
but  surrounded  by  more  or  less  timber.  And  there  were  three  fires; 
showing  that  it  could  not  have  been  an  accident.  Three  fires  were  kindled 
along  the  trail,  two  on  one  side  and  the  other  on  the  opposite  side. 
When  I  got  back  home  I  wrote  to  Curtis  and  asked  him  to  call  the  at 
tention  of  the  Indians  to  it,  and  say  that  the  burning  of  the  country 
was  not  going  to  be  permitted  much  longer  by  the  settlers  ;  that  they 
would  make  serious  trouble  if  it  was  continued.  He  wrote  that  he  had 
explained  my  letter  to  the  Indians,  and  they  had  promised  that  there 
should  be  no  more  fires  kindled.  I  can  relate  an  incident  which  is,  per 
haps,  as  good  an  illustration  of  the  spirit  of  the  Indians  as  anything  that  I 
can  tell,  if  you  care  to  hear  the  story.  A  good  portion  of  it  occurred 
in  the  presence  of  Agent  Meeker,  his  family,  and  the  attaches.  There 
had  been  a  band  of  Indians  out  on  the  plains  east  of  Denver,  near 
Cedar  Point.  That  was  in  the  fall  of  1878.  They  had  spent  most 
of  the  summer  there  hunting  antelope  and  buffalo.  The  baud  was 
made  up  of  about  two-thirds  W^hite  River  Indians  and  one-third  Un- 
compahgre  Indians,  Ouray's  immediate  band  ;  Los  Piuos,  they  call 
themselves.  They  were  recognized  by  whites  and  by  the  principal 
members  of  the  tribes  themselves  as  partaking  largely  of  the  char 
acter  of  outlaws  or  renegades,  members  of  the  tribe  who  wanted  to 
get  beyond  the  restraints  of  their  immediate  tribal  government.  Such 
bands  are  very  common  among  Indian  tribes.  They  had  made  their 
rendezvous  at  Cedar  Point  or  near  there  most  of  the  summer.  In 
August  a  man  named  McLean  disappeared,  and  it  was  charged  that 
he  was  killed  by  those  Indians.  McLean  was  a  cattleman  ;  he  had  a 
large  herd  of  cattle  near  Cheyenne  Wells,  on  the  Kansas  Pacific  road. 
This  camp  of  Indians  were  charged  with  his  murder.  The  cattlemen 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK  153 

became  very  much  excited  and  began  to  threaten  the  Indians  so  serious 
ly  that  they  abandoned  their  camp  and  started  for  the  mountains.  They 
passed  through  Denver,  and  there  they  got  some  whisky  and  got  into 
a  very  bad  scrape.  Two  or  three  of  them  were  thrown  into  the  calaboose 
for  a  night  or  two  and  released  after  they  got  sober.  They  passed  up 
by  the  way  of  Georgetown  and  crossed  over  into  Middle  Park.  After 
they  passed  Georgetown  they  became  very  insolent  along  the  road,  stop 
ping  travelers  and  insulting  them  and  demanding  provisions  and  sup 
plies,  and  it  was  reported  that  they  were  under  the  influence  of  liquor. 
I  have  no  doubt  that  was  the  fact.  They  came  down  to  W.  Z.  Couzens's, 
who  lives  at  the  head  of  the  open  country  of  the  Middle  Park.  He  is  an 
old  frontiersman,  very  courageous.  They  went  to  his  house  and  ordered 
him  to  leave  and  to  take  his  goods  away,  and  demanded  that  his  wife 
should  cook  for  them.  Couzens  defied  them  and  ordered  them  off  his 
premises.  After  some  very  bitter  and  violent  threats  they  apparently 
became  satisfied  of  his  courage  and  moved  on  down  the  park.  They 
went  down  about  six  miles  farther  to  a  settlement  known  as  Junction, 
where  two  roads  came  together.  It  was  occupied  at  the  time  by  only 
one  man,  who  was  haying  as  they  came  along.  The  band  was  led  by 
Washington,  of  the  White  Rivers,  and  Piah,  ofthellncompahgres.  They 
ordered  this  man  out  of  the  meadow,  moved  their  camp  into  it,  and  turned 
out  their  horses,  something  more  than  a  hundred  head,  and  took  pos 
session  of  the  premises.  They  told  this  man  that  they  wanted  pay  for  his 
ranch.  That  he  n  ust  pay  the  Utes  for  it.  He  told  them  that  the  country 
had  beec  bought  by  the  government,  and  then  they  repeated  the  old  story 
that  Ouray  had  sold  it  without  their  consent  and  cheated  them  out  of 
the  money,  and  now  Piah  must  be  paid  for  it.  They  broke  up  this  man's 
mowing  implements,  scythes,  and  rakes,  threw  down  his  fences,  and  de 
manded  supplies  of  him.  They  scared  him  so  badly  that  he  left  the 
place  as  soon  as  he  could  get  away.  He  was  afraid  to  go  out  for  fear 
they  would  kill  him. 

Q.  Is  this  of  your  own  knowledge  or  common  rumor  ? — A.  I  was  there 
within  sixteen  miles  at  the  time,  at  Hot  Sulphur  Springs.  I  did  not  see 
this,  but  it  came  to  me  by  the  mouths  of  a  great  many  people.  The  In 
dians  demanded  pay  for  this  country.  On  the  next  day,  or  the  second 
day  after  the.v  came  there,  they  agreed  with  this  man  that  he  might  have 
a  certain  portion  of  this  meadow,  and  save  the  hay  for  himself,  and 
they  would  take  the  balance.  They  marked  off  a  small  corner  of  about 
five  or  six  acres  of  grass  (there  being  about  eighty  or  ninety  in  the 
meadow)  which  they  said  he  might  have,  and  they  would  have  the  re 
mainder.  This  was  about  110  to  120  miles  by  the  traveled  route  from 
the  reservation,  but  by  an  air-line  about  65  miles.  This  man  came  down 
to  the  Springs  for  assistance  and  appealed  to  the  sheriff  of  the  county, 
whom  I  know  very  well.  The  sheriff  raised  a  posse  of  nine  or  ten  men 
and  started  off  on  Sunday  morning  to  go  up  to  this  ranch  and  dispos 
sess  the  Indians.  They  came  over  to  my  house  when  they  were  making 
up  the  posse  and  asked  my  son  to  go.  We  were  at  the  breakfast  table  at 
the  time.  My  son  went  al.ong  and  I  excused  myself.  I  had  been  out 
three  or  four  days  on  a  very  hard  trip,  and  declined  to  go.  They  started 
off  probably  about  nine  o'clock  in  the  morning,  and  went  up  to  this 
ranch  sixteen  miles,  found  the  Indian  camp  in  the  meadow,  the  Indians 
themselves  being  about  a  mile  distant,  where  they  had  prepared  a  race 
course  for  racing  their  horses ;  the  squaws  and  the  children  were  at  the 
camp.  The  sheriff  went  with  his  posse  to  the  camp  and  took  possession 
of  the  guns  that  were  lying  around  there,  six  or  eight  in  number,  and 
sent  word  to  the  Indians,  or  rather  one  Indian  who  was  near  there  went 


154  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

off  as  runner  to  the  race-track  to  warn  them.  They  came  back  in  a  good 
deal  of  alarm,  apparently,  to  the  neighborhood  of  the  camp,  came  charg 
ing  back  on  their  horses.  One  of  their  number,  as  they  came  up  to  where 
the  white  men  were,  attempted  to-draw  his  gun,  with  demonstrations  of 
shooting  a  man  who  was  of  the  sheriff's  posse,  known  there  by  the 
name  of  Big  Frank,  a  miner,  who  was  interested  over  in  the  North  Park 
mines.  As  it  was  told  afterward,  this  Indian  and  Big  Frank  had  had  some 
unpleasant  differences  some  years  before,  and  each,  having  a  grudge 
against  the  other,  was  watching  him,  and  when  the  Indian  attempted  to 
draw  his  gun  Big  Frank  drew  his  and  shot  and  killed  the  Indian.  The 
horse  ran  off  a  hundred  yards,  perhaps,  when  the  Indian  fell  off  into  the 
willows  and  he  died  in  a  few  moments.  The  Indians  immediately  broke 
up  their  camp  and  went  on  down  to  the  neighborhood  of  the  Springs 
along  with  the  sheriff  and  his  posse,  all  traveling  down  the  road  together. 
They  carried  with  them  the  body  of  the  Indian  who  was  killed. 
They  made  their  camp  a  mile  and  a  half  away  from  the  Springs,  re 
mained  there  that  night,  and  next  day  passed  on  down  the  Park 
and  disappeared  from  our  sight;  but  on  the  second  day  reports  came 
back  that  they  had  killed  a  man  named  Elliott  in  the  lower  part  of  the 
park,  and  that  a  number  of  horses  were  missing.  There  was  a  little 
scouting  party  sent  down  to  verify  the  rumors  that  came  from  below, 
and  they  came  back  a  few  hours  later  and  verified  the  reports  of  the 
killing  of  Elliott,  who  had  been  the  lowest  settler  in  the  park, 
and  the  loss  of  the  horses.  Steps  were  immediately  taken  to  raise 
a  scouting  party  and  follow  them  down  towards  the  agency  to  recover 
the  stolen  horses,  and  there  was  a  party  made  up.  Major-General  D. 
J.  Cook,  of  the  State  militia,  had  been  sent  in  in  the  meantime,  and  he 
took  charge  of  the  organization.  I  was  one  of  the  number  who  followed 
the  Indians.  There  were  twenty-six  of  us  altogether.  We  made  our 
preparations  and  started  off  with  about  two  hours'  notice.  We  followed 
down  the  park  to  where  Elliott  had  been  killed.  On  the  way  down  we 
met  Elliott's  widow  and  his  son  coming  up  with  his  body  to  bury  him 
at  the  Springs.  We  camped  the  first  night  at  a  settler's  house,  near 
where  he  was  killed.  We  found  the  whole  lower  park  in  an  uproar,  and 
the  people  collecting  together  for  mutual  protection.  It  was  in  the 
midst  of  haying  time,  and  they  had  abandoned  their  work  and  gathered 
up  their  families  and  horses  and  collected  at  two  points  below  the 
Springs,  and  a  good  many  had  come  up  to  the  Springs  and  some  had 
gone  out  of  the  park.  We  went  over  to  Elliott's  cabin  next  morning. 
There  we  divided  and  took  the  trails  that  the  Indians  had  followed  over 
the  mountains  towards  the  reservation. 

By  Mr.  DEERING  : 

Q.  Did  they  pretend  to  have  any  provocation  ? — A.  No,  sir  ;  no  prov 
ocation  except  the  killing  of  this  Indian  in  the  Upper  Park.  There  was 
no  quarrel  between  them  and  Elliott.  We  divided  at  Elliott's  house  so 
as  to  follow  the  two  trails  over  the  mountains  in  pursuit  of  the  Indians. 
Soon  after  leaving  the  Elliott  cabin,  the  party  that  I  was  with  found  the 
main  trail  of  the  Indians  where  they  had  driven  a  herd  of  horses.  A 
little  later  on  we  found  where  one  Indian  scout  had  followed  after  the 
main  band.  At  a  distance  of  about  twenty  miles  these  trails  came  to 
gether,  and  we  found  that  where  there  had  been  one  scout  on  our  trail 
there  had  been  four  on  the  other  trail,  showing  that  there  had  been  five 
men  who  had  remained  behind  the  main  band  for  the  purpose  of  kill 
ing  Elliott.  They  had  waited  until  the  band  had  got  over  the  mountains 
with  their  herd  of  horses  before  they  made  the  assault  upon  Elliott ; 
then  they  had  killed  him  and  had  attempted  to  drive  off  his  horses,  but 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  155 

bad  lost  them  in  the  mountains,  as  they  afterwards  explained.  They 
saved  one  mare  and  colt,  I  believe,  but  the  balance  got  away  from 
them,  so  they  claimed,  but  they  have  never  been  found  since.  They 
came  together  about  twenty  miles  from  where  the  murder  had  been 
committed.  There  were  five  men,  as  we  could  tell  by  the  trail,  and 
they  had  seven  animals,  five  horses  ridden  by  them,  one  loose  horse  and 
one  colt.  We  followed  their  trail  until  they  joined  the  main  band. 
The  main  band  divided  and  passed  over  the  summit  of  a  high  ridge  of 
mountains,  while  this  little  scouting  party  had  kept  around  on  the  flank 
of  the  mountains  and  had  not  joined  the  main  band  until  they  came  to 
Piney  River.  There  they  joined  and  went  down  the  Eagle  River  to -its 
mouth,  where  they  entered  the  line  of  the  reservation.  It  crosses  right 
by  the  mouth  of  Eagle  River  a  short  distance  above  or  below.  They 
had  ascended  a  mountain  out  of  the  valley  of  Grand  Eiver;  and  on  the 
table  land  they  had  made  a  camp,  and  about  one-third,  with  one  third 
of  the  loose  stock,  had  turned  off  towards  the  Uncompahgre  Agency, 
and  two  thirds  with  two  thirds  of  the  stock  had  continued  on  towards 
the  White  River  Agency.  We  followed  that  trail  to  the  next  camp. 
There  our  party,  or  a  great  many  of  them,  became  very  much  discouraged 
or  demoralized.  We  were  almost  out  of  v«upplies.  and  sixteen  out  of  the 
twenty- six  turned  back.  We  were  on  the  reservation,  and  a  great  many 
of  them  had  very  serious  scruples  about  our  right  to  go  upon  the  reserva 
tion,  and  the  consequence  was  that  we  held  a  council  of  war,  and  sixteen  of 
the  twenty-six  turned  back.  Ten  of  us  continued  on  to  the  agency. 
This  killing  of  the  Indian  occurred  on  the  first  day  of  September.  The 
murder  of  Elliott  occurred  on  the  evening  of  the  third  day  of  September. 
We  set  out  on  the  fifth  day  of  September.  We  reached  the  agency  on 
the  morning  of  the  9th.  It  was  on  this  journey  that  we  passed  over 
this  100  miles  of  the  reservation  and  found  the  timber  all  green  and  none 
burnt.  Within  four  miles  of  ths  agency  we  came  upon  the  first  camp 
we  had  seen,  which  appeared  to  be  the  camp  of  a  subchief  who  is  known 
by  the  name  of  "  Judge."  It  was  a  herder's  camp.  They  had  moved  out 
there  with  a  band  of  horses  and  were  herding  the  horses  and  fishing  in  the 
White  River,  and  the  women  were  gathering  berries  and  nuts  arid  drying 
them.  They  had  no  warning  of  our  approach  until  we  were  coming  down 
the  mountain  directly  into  their  camp.  We  were  leading  our  horses.  The 
mountain  side  is  covered  with  a  very  thick  growth  of  brush  just  about  as 
high  as  a  man's  head,  a  kind  of  chaparral,  and  the  road  zig-zags  back  and 
forth,  and  the  Indians  apparently  did  not  discover  us  until  we  got  within 
a  quarter  of  a  mile  of  the  camp,  and  then  they  saw  our  guns  gleaming 
over  the  brush,  or  perhaps  caught  sight  of  our  heads  or  the  heads  of  our 
horses.  It  was  just  before  noon.  The  moment  they  discovered  us  they 
raised  a  great  alarm,  abandoned  the  horses;  those  who  could  sprang  on 
horses'  backs  and  rode  off  toward  the  agency,  and  those  who  could  not, 
hid  in  the  brush.  We  followed  down  leisurely,  and  by  the  time  we 
reached  the  camp  we  could  not  see  a  living  creature  except  the  horses  ; 
the  Indians  were  all  gone,  even  the  dogs  had  disappeared.  We  followed 
down  to  the  agency,  and  when  we  came  in  sight  of  it  we  found  the  In 
dians  drawn  up  in  line  of  battle,  ninety-two  of  them,  mounted  and  with 
arms  in  their  hands.  I  was  riding  in  advance  of  the  party,  and  had  rid 
den  up  within  seventy-five  yards  of  their  line, 'perhaps,  when  an  Indian 
whom  I  knew  very  well  handed  his  gun  to  another  and  dashed  out 
of  the  line.  His  name  is  Musisco,  but  he  appears  in  your  minutes 
by  a  slightly  different  name.  He  held  out  his  hand  to  shake  hands.  I 
took  it  and  said,  "How  do  you  dof  Another  one,  an  old  Indian  proba 
bly  80  years  of  age,  half  demented  and  known  as  "  the  Doctor,"  came 


156  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

behind  him,  with  a  little  United  States  flag  on  a  pole  ten  or  twelve  feet 
long.  He  came  out  on  foot.  I  shook  hands  with  him  and  rode  along 
the  front  of  the  line  to  the  gate  of  the  inclosure  which  they  have  on 
one  side  of  the  agency  building.  At  the  gate  I  met  an  employe  of  the 
agency,  a  blacksmith,  who  opened  the  gate  and  we  rode  inside.  I  found 
Mrs.  Meeker  there.  I  inquired  for  Mr.  Meeker.  They  said  he  was 
down  where  they  were  making  the  improvements  for  the  new  agency. 
I  asked  if  there  was  a  boy  who  would  carry  a  message  down  to  him  for 
me,  and  they  brought  an  Indian  boy;  I  wrote  a  note  and  started  him  off. 
The  Indians  immediately  began  to  inquire  why  we  came,  and  whether 
there  was  a  large  force  of  white  men  coming  after  us.  I  declined  to  an 
swer  them  until  Mr.  Meeker  came,  telling  them  that  they  would  have 
to  wait  until  he  came.  They  were  very  anxious  to  know  how  long  we 
were  going  to  stay.  The  agency  people  provided  dinner  for  us,  and 
about  3  o'clock  in  the  afternoon  Mr.  Meeker  came,  and  we  immediately 
went  into  council  in  the  council  room  of  the  agency,  which  was  about 
two-thirds  the  size  of  this.  The  Indians  crowded  in,  as  many  as  could, 
and  our  party  were  all  there,  and  the  agent  was  there.  B./an  agree 
ment,  it  was  determined  on  our  part  that  I  should  do  the  talking;  and 
we  sat  around  there  on  beds  and  benches.  I  told  them  what  we  came 
for;  and  we  wanted  to  learn  who  had  killed  Mr.  Elliot  and  the  reason 
why  he  had  been  killed ;  and  we  demanded  the  return  of  the  horses  they 
had  stolen  from  Middle  Park.  We  did  not  demand  any  others.  On 
our  way  down  we  had  found  our  stolen  horses  on  the  side  of  the  mount- 
tain  where  they  had  been  apparently  secreted,  near  the  trail  we  were 
passing  down.  We  had  seen  and  counted  them.  The  Indians  imme 
diately  told  us  that  we  should  have  the  horses,  but  they  parleyed  a  good 
deal  over  the  Elliot  murder,  declining  for  the  time  being  to  tell  us  who 
did  it.  We  talked  a  good  while.  Most  of  the  talking  was  done  by  Col- 
orow,  Douglas,  Sahwitz  (who  appears  here  as  Sowerwick).  Washing 
ton  was  present,  but  did  not  take  any  part  in  the  conference.  Washing 
ton  had  been  the  leader  of  this  predatory  band  on  the  part  of  the  White 
River  Utes  ;  Piah  was  the  leader  of  the  others.  We  talked  a  good  deal 
that  afternoon,  and  during  that  conversation  I  discovered  the  first  evi 
dence  of  dissatisfaction  with  Agent  Meeker.  Mr.  Meeker  would  occa 
sionally  interpose  a  remark  ;  he  didn't  say  much,  but  I  observed  when  he 
made  his  remarks  that  they  were  displeasing  to  the  Indians.  This  was  in 
September,  1878.  Finally,  after  repeating  our  demand  for  the  horses,  Mr. 
Meeker  said,  "  Yes,  they  must  be  given  up."  He  said  it  in  a  somewhat 
emphatic  tone,  and  Colorow  sprang  to  his  feet  and  said,  "Meeker,  you  no 
talk;  we  no  want  you  talk;  you  let  Pius  (Byers)  talk  ;"'  and  as  he  said  that 
the  Indians  all  around  the  room  grunted  their  approval.  That  was  the  first 
evidence  that  they  were  dissatisfied.  After  talking  an  hour  or  two  they 
suggested  that  we  adjourn  the  council  until  next  morning,  and  we  did 
so.  That  evening  I  spent  in  Mr.  Meeker's  house.  Several  Indians 
came  in  there  to  talk  ;  one  of  them  was  quite  intrusive.  I  cannot  think 
of  his  name  now,  but  he  is  one  who  has  not  cut  any  figure  re 
cently.  He  was  then,  however,  quite  an  influential  man,  and  I 
learned  afterwards  that  he  was  one  with  whom  Mr.  Meeker  had 
had  quite  a  serious  altercation  some  little  time  before.  It  was  not 
Johnson.  This  man  crowded  into  Mr.  Meeker's  house  while  we 
were  eating  supper,  and  said  that  he  wanted  to  talk  with  me.  Af 
ter  supper,  when  I  came  out,  he  did  not  manifest  any  desire  to 
talk,  but  sat  there  and  did  not  do  any  talking.  Immediately  after  sup 
per  Washington  came  in.  He  had  a  sore  arm,  which  many  believed 
was  a  wound  received  at  the  time  Mr.  McLean  was  killed  on  the  plains, 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  157 

but  there  has  never  been  any  evidence  of  that  fact.  We  had  a  surgeon 
with  us,  a  very  accomplished  .young  man,  and  he  undid  the  bandages 
and  washed  and  dressed  the  Indian's  arm  in  splints,  and  again  the  next 
day.  After  supper,  these  Indians  not  continuing  the  conversation,  Mr. 
Meeker  asked  me  to  go  over  to  his  private  room,  which  I  did,  and  we 
spent  the  evening  there  talking,  and  he  revealed  to  me  a  great  deal  of 
the  dissatisfaction  that  existed,  not  only  on  the  part  of  the  Indians  but 
on  the  part  of  himself.  He  told  me  that  his  position  there  was  entirely 
a  thankless  one  5  that  the  Indians  were  destitute  of  gratitude  ;  that  they 
thought  the  only  thing  that  a  white  man  was  good  for  was  to  provide 
for  them  in  the  first  place  and  to  wait  upon  them  in  the  second  place. 
Then  he  told  me  about  the  altercation  with  this  man  that  I  have  referred 
to.  Mr.  Meeker  had  planted  a  garden  along  the  river,  near  the  agency, 
and  had  a  lot  of  vegetables  growing,  and  on  the  occasion  of  this  unpleas 
antness  he  had  gone  down  to  gather  some  vegetables  for  dinner.  While 
he  was  in  the  act  of  doing  so  this  old  Indian  came  and  ordered  him  out 
of  the  garden.  Mr.  Meeker  continued  gathering  his  pease,  and  finally 
the  Indian  came  up  and  took  him  by  the  shoulders  and  whirled  him 
around,  and  said,  "Ute  ground,  Ute  potatoes,  Ute  want  him,  Ute  eat." 
I  think  Mr.  Meeker  said  that  that  was  the  first  personal  difficulty  he 
ever  had  had  with  any  of  them ,  and  it  Deemed  to  rankle  in  his  mind 
a  good  deal,  and  he  said  that  this  man  had  made  a  good  deal  of  trou 
ble.  Douglass  at  that  time  was  very  friendly.  He  was  living  in  a 
house  which  had  been  built  by  the  government,  and  milking  a  cow 
which  had  been  provided  by  the  agency  and  was  taken  care  of  by  the 
agency  herdsmen,  and  three  other  Indians  were  doing  the  same  thing. 
There  were  four  Indian  families,  each  of  them  milking  an  agency  cow, 
and  three  of  them  were  living  in  houses.  One  house  built  for  the  In 
dians  was  standing  vacant.  Next  morning  we  resumed  our  counsel, 
and  I  had  set  noon  to  leave  the  agency.  The  Indians  were  very  anxious 
that  we  should  leave  and  get  off  the  reservation.  I  had  explained  that 
the  only  object  we  had  in  remaining  there  was  to  recover  the  horses, 
and  as  soon  as  they  were  surrendered  to  us  we  should  leave  the  agency 
and  the  reservation  by  the  most  direct  route.  They  brought  in  all  the 
animals  but  two,  one  pony  and  one  mule ;  those  they  refused  to  bring. 
I  repeated  my  demand,  and  by  and  by  they  brought  in  the  pony.  There 
was  still  one  mule  lacking, and  it  had  reached  noon.  Just  as  1  went  to 
my  dinner  in  Mr.  Meeker's  house  I  spoke  to  a  young  Indian  that  we 
called  Jim,  who  had  been  acting  partially  as  interpreter,  and  told  him  I 
wanted  that  mule  by  the  time  I  had  eaten  my  dinner,  because  I  was 
going  away  and  could  not  go  without  that  animal,  and  that  I  wanted 
him  to  go  to  Sah  witz  and  tell  him  that  it  must  be  brought.  When  I  came 
out  from  my  dinner  the  mule  was  there ;  all  the  animals  that  we  claimed 
were  ready  for  us,  and  we  saddled  up  and  started  off,  two  of  the  Indians 
going  with  us.  I  had  promised  to  restore  their  guns  that  had  been 
taken  by  the  sheriff  the  day  that  this  young  Indian  was  killed,  and 
which  had  not  been  restored  to  them.  I  told  them  they  might  send 
those  two  Indians  with  us  to  Hot  Sulphur  Springs,  and  I  would  answer 
for  their  safety.  The  Indians  selected  to  go  with  us  were  Mucisco,  who 
had  been  my  friend  since  1875,  and  another  one  named  Dncomgood ; 
both  very  intelligent  and  very  pleasant  men  to  get  along  with.  Mucisco 
could  talk  some  English,  and  Uncomgood  was  very  desirous  of  learning 
English  words ;  so  much  so  that  he  would  sit  around  the  camp  fire  at 
night  and  explain  Indian  words  the  best  he  could  and  ask  the  names  of 
this  and  that  in  English.  1  thought  those  two  Indians  were  very  con 
servative  and  desired  to  better  the  condition  of  their  people ;  I  always 


158  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

did  think  so  until  last  summer.  The}-  traveled  back  with  us  to  Hob 
Sulphur  Springs,  I  think  five  days'  march.  The  first  night's  camp  after 
leaving  the  agency  was  where  this  battle  occurred  last  tall,  at  the  cross 
ing  of  Milk  Creek,  right  at  the  line  of  the  reservation  as  we  then  under 
stood  it,  and  as  we  understand  it  now.  We  made  our  journey  back  to 
Hot  Sulphur  Springs.  I  procured  the  guns  from  the  sheriff  and  restored 
them  to  the  Indians.  They  staid  at  my  house  two  or  three  days  and 
started  back,  and  I  never  saw  them  again  until  they  came  out  for  a  con 
ference  with  Governor  Pit-kin  in  August  last.  I  want  to  explain  to  you 
their  reason  for  killing  Elliot.  I  discussed  that  point  repeatedly  with 
them  when  they  were  all  present.  We  had  two  interpreters,  this  young- 
man  named  Jim  and  a  woman  known  as  Jane.  She  is  a  Uintah  Uter 
but  married  into  the  White  River  tribe.  Her  husband  is  rather  an  in 
significant  man  in  the  tribe,  named  Pah-vits.  The  woman  is  very  smart 
and  talks  quite  fair  English,  having  lived  for  some  years  in  the  family 
of  Judge  Carter  at  Fort  Bridger,  in  Utah.  She  was  our  principal  inter 
preter.  They  did  not  deny  the  killing  of  Elliot.  They  said  he  was 
killed  by  Piah  and  one  other  Ute.  They  never  would  agree  to  tell  who 
that  other  Ute  was,  but  said  ,that  he  belonged  to  the  Uncompahgres. 
They  pretended  that  they  did  not  know  his  name.  They  claimed  that 
that  Indian  was  a  brother  of  the  Indian  killed  in  MkUiePark  on  the  1st 
of  September,  and  that  he  killed  Elliot  with  the  gun  that  belonged  to- 
his  brother,  a  Winchester  rifle.  I  have  no  doubt  of  the  truth  of  that 
statement  of  the  manner  of  killing;  in  fact  it  confirmed  what  we  already 
knew.  They  had  no  hesitation  in  saying  that  they  killed  him  because  the 
Indian  had  been  killed,  and  that  that  was  justice.  uOne  Indian  killed^ 
one  white  man  killed;  all  right;  pretty  good."  They  did  not  manifest 
any  animosity  beyond  that,  but  they  claimed  that  they  werejustitied  in 
killing  him  in  the  way  they  did  for  the  reason  that  an  Indian  had  been 
killed.  I  tried  to  impress  upon  them  the  injustice  of  that  idea.  I  went 
over  the  ground  a  dozen  times  and  illustrated  it,  but  they  never  would 
admit  it.  They  thought  their  own  custom  just  and  that  nothing  else 
was.  They  had  no  excuse  for  driving  off  the  horses  except  that  they 
said  it  was  an  unlawful  proceeding  by  this  roving  baud,  who  they  claimed 
were  outlaws,  and  that  the  regular  band  ought  not  to  be  held  responsi 
ble  for  that,  and  they  were  willing  to  compel  the  surrender  of  the  prop 
erty.  I  think  we  recovered  every  horse  they  had  stolen  from  our  part 
of  the  country,  but  they  had  horses  that  they  had  stolen  from  other  places. 
They  did  not  deny  that.  These  Indians  traveled  back  with  us  and  we 
were  good  friends.  I  told  them  we  had  but  two  demands  to  make :  one 
was  that  the*'  should  not  steal  any  more  of  our  horses,  and  the  other 
that  they  should  not  burn  over  any  more  of  our  country.  This  was  a 
feature  of  the  conversation  at  the  agency  that  I  did  not  touch  upon  in 
the  direct  statement  of  the  incidents  there. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Did  you  learn  what  their  complaints  were  against  the  agent? — A. 
They  did  not  make  any  complaint  at  that  time,  but  I  have  learned 
since  what  the  causes  of  their  complaints  were.  Last  August,  imme 
diately  preceding  the  outbreak,  they  sent  out  a  delegation  to  Denver, 
consisting  of  Jack,  Sahwitz,  Mucisco,  and  Uncomgood.  When  they 
came  to  Denver  they  came  to  me,  because  they  were  better  acquainted 
with  me  than  any  one  else  in  Denver,  except  Major  Thompson,  and  they 
had  fallen  out  with  him  some  time  before.  They  first  said  that  they 
had  come  out  to  see  General  Pope  ;  that  they  had  heard  that  he  was- 
there.  I  told  them  that  he  had  been  there  a  few  days  before,  and  if  they 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

wanted  to  see  him  and  would  wait  I  thought  I  could  promise  that  he 
would  corne  back  that  was' :  he  had  gone  down  to  Pagosa  Springs.  But 
the  moinentl  told  them  that,  they  seemed  tolose  interestin  seeing  General 
Pope,  and  said  they  wanted  to  see  Governor  Pitkin,  and  wanted  me  to 
go  with  them  and  talk  with  him.  Jack  at  that  time  was  very  bitter  in 
his  denunciation  of  Mr.  Meeker;  lie  said  he  was  a  bad  man.  He  told 
me  so  and  he  told  Governor  Pitkin  so  twice  in  my  presence,  on  two 
successive  days.  I  went  with  them  to  the  governor  and  they  had  their 
talk,  and  we  went  out  in  town.  I  made  them  a  few  little  presents  and 
they  went  down  to  their  hotel.  Later  in  the  day  they  came  to  see  me 
again,  and  the  next  morning  they  came  and  wanted  to  have  another 
talk  with  the  governor.  Their  complaint  was  that  Mr.  Meeker  was  a 
bad  man  ;  they  wanted  him  removed  and  wanted  another  agent  ;  they 
would  not  tell  who  they  wanted.  Their  objection  to  Mr.  Meeker  was  that 
he  wanted  to  educate  their  children,  to  fence  and  plow  their  ground,  and 
to  build  houses,  which  they  were  opposed  to.  They  were  afraid  it  was 
going  to  lead  to  their  being  obliged  to  work,  and  they  did  not  want  to  do 
that  nor  to  have  their  children  educated.  I  went  with  them  a  second 
time,  and  they  went  over  the  same  ground  witli  the  governor.  He 
asked  them  if  they  had  any  complaint  to  make  about  the  white  men 
encroaching  upon  the  reservation.  They  made  none.  They  did  not 
seem  to  know  or  care  whether  the  white  men  were  on  their  ground  or 
not.  At  all  events,  they  did  not  complain  of  them,  but  they  complained 
of  Mr.  Meeker  on  the  grounds  I  have  stated.  Another  complaint  was 
that  the  beef  that  was  being  distributed  to  them  was  being  killed  out 
of  the  Indian  herd,  and  that  it  was  not  right,  they  claimed,  that  they 
should  be  allowed  an  undisputed  control  of  the  herd  for  their  own  use, 
and  that  the  beef  distributed  should  be  otherwise  provided. 

By  Mr.  GUNTER: 

Q.  What  do  you  understand  by  Indian  herd  !  Do  those  cattle  be 
long  absolutely  to  the  Indians,  or  are  they  cattle  that  the  government 
have  for  their  use  ?— A.  It  is  a  herd  of  cattle  that  were  bought  by  the 
government  for  the  Indians'  use,  in  the  spring  of  1869,  I  think,  imme 
diately  following  this  treaty  of  18G8,  by  which  they  were  to  be  provided 
with  a  certain  number  of  head  of  cattle  and  sheep.  The  White  River 
Utes  have  eaten  up  all  their  sheep  and  have  only  this  band  of  cattle, 
but  it  seems  to  have  been  recognized,  I  think,  by  both  whites  and  In- 
dians,  that  the  Indians  were  to  be  fed  from  this  herd,  and  the  beef 
which  has  been  given  out  to  them  in  their  weekly  issues  has  been  killed 
out  of  that  herd.  I  never  knew  of  any  objection  until  this  by  Jack  and 
his  companions,  when  the}7  claimed  that  the  beef  ought  not  to  come  out 
of  the  herd;  that  the  herd  belonged  to  the  Indians  and  the  beef 
ought  to  be  drawn  from  some  other  source.  He  was  very  strenuous  in 
regard  to  that.  He  said  also  that  he  wanted  some  horses  and  wagons 
for  his  own  use,  and  he  wanted  big  horses.  I  think  he  made  a  demand 
for  two  or  three  other  wagons  for  the  common  use  of  the  tribe,  but  he 
wanted  one,  a  red  wagon,  especially  for  himself.  As  long  as  these 
other  Indians  were  present  Jack  did  all  the  talking  and  the  others 
simply  assented  to  what  he  said  by  grunts.  The  other  Indians  would 
not  talk  in  his  presence.  I  was  still  of  the  opinion  that  these  two  In 
dians,  Mucisco  and  Uncorngcod,  differed  with  Jack  in  their  sentiments, 
and  I  rested  in  that  opinion  until  the  last  day  they  were  in  Denver. 
On  that  day  they  came  to  see  me  without  being  accompanied  by  Jack  or 
Sahwitz.  They  had  evidently  avoided  them  and  come  by  them 
selves  to  have  a  talk  with  me.  Then  they  talked  freely,  and  I  was  very 


160  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

much  surprised  to  learn  that  they  were  fully  as  bitter  in  their  denunci 
ations  of  Mr.  Meeker  and  his  plans  as  Jack  was  himself.  I  never  had 
heard  such  sentiments  from  them  before.  They  talked  as  freely,  as  un 
equivocally,  and  quite  as  emphatically  as  Jack  did.  That  was  the  first 
thing  that  caused  me  to  think  there  was  immediate  danger.  I  had  been 
satisfied  for  two  or  three  years  past  that  they  were  making  preparations 
for  something  of  this  kind,  but  I  did  not  think  it  was  coming  yet.  I  was 
satisfied  of  itfrom  this  fact  that  they  were  cultivating  friendly  relations 
with  the  neighboring  tribes  that  they  have  been  at  enmity  with  for 
generations,  tribes  that  their  traditions  have  always  indicated  as  ene 
mies,  the  Cheyenues  and  Arapahoes.  For  several  winters  past  they 
have  cultivated  friendly  relations  with  them,  and  in  talking  of 
them  they  would  say,  u  Cheyeniies  pretty  good  Indians,"  and  the 
same  as  to  the  Arapahoes.  Jack  had  been  spending  his  winters 
with  them  up  in  Wyoming,  at  a  place  known  as  Whisky  Gap.  1 
talked  a  good  deal  with  Jack  about  that,  and  1  made  up  my 
mind  that  they  were  getting  ready  for  something  like  this  out 
break,  but  I  did  not  expect  anything  so  serious.  They  have  been 
always  advised  of  Indian  hostilities  in  the  other  parts  of  the  country. 
In  the  fall  of  1878,  when  I  was  up  on  the  Bear  River,  as  I  have  mentioned, 
they  were  familiar  with  Joseph's  outbreak  in  Idaho,  and  they  asked  ques 
tions  about  it,  and  they  would  ask  what  was  the  latest  news  from  that 
part  of  the  county  and  how  the  Indians  were  getting  along  down  in  Ari 
zona,  in  the  south,  and  they  called  up  the  old  question  of  the  killing  of 
a  lot  of  miners  in  the  North  Park  some  eight  or  ten  years  ago,  and  went 
over  and  explained  all  the  massacre,  which  they  had  done  with  me  a  great 
many  times  before.  Colorow  himself,  in  the  fall  of  1878,  explained  how 
the  property  of  the  miners  was  found  in  the  possession  of  the  Utes.  He 
said  that  the  miners  were  killed  by  a  band  of  Arapahoes,  and  that  after 
they  had  killed  the  miners  the  Utes  fell  upon  the  Arapahoes  and  killed 
them,  and  thus  got  possession  of  the  property.  He  took  pains  to  go  over 
that  matter  to  me  in  the  fall  of  1878.  There  had  been  two  men  killed 
that  summer,  named  Green,  near  the  mouth  of  the  Grand  River,  on  the 
road  from  Utah,  and  Colorow  came  to  me  two  or  three  times  to  talk 
about  that  and  to  explain  that  it  could  not  have  been  done  by  Utes  be 
cause  there  were  none  down  in  that  part  of  the  country;  and  he  told  me 
where  he  was,  where  Jack  was,  and  where  other  bands  were  roaming  at 
the  time  these  murders  occurred. 

Q.  Are  there  any  other  reasons  why  you  supposed  they  were  prepar 
ing  for  this  massacre  than  those  already  given  1 — A.  No,  sir ;  nothing 
excepting  the  indications  directly  from  them,  their  talk  when  I  would 
meet  them. 

Q.  You  had  no  such  declarations  from  them  ?—  A.  No,  sir;  they  never 
told  me  that  they  were  preparing  for  anything  of  the  kind,  I  only  judge 
from  their  objections  to  the  settlement  of  the  country  and  their  friendly 
intercourse  with  neighboring  bands  of  Indians. 

Q.  Had  not  previous  agents  been  trying  to  educate  them  and  teach 
them  farming?— A.  Yes,  sir,  I  think  they  had  been  making  the  same 
kind  of  efforts  ;  but  I  can  explain  to  you  the  secret  of  Mr.  Meeker's  fail 
ure.  Mr.  Meeker  went  there  with  a  great  deal  of  enthusiasm  to  make  a 
success  of  his  agency.  He  was  a  very  conscientious  and  enthusiastic 
man  in  his  ideas  of  reform.  He  set  out  to  confine  himself  strictly  with 
in  the  letter  of  the  law  and  his  instructions,  a  thing  that  is  seldom  don 
by  Indian  agents.  He  was  instructed  that  these  Indians  should  appear 
there  every  Wednesday  to  draw  their  week's  rations,  and  if  they  did  not 
appear  there  they  could  not  draw  them  ;  and  they  didn't  draw  their  ra- 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  161 

tions.  That  was  a  strictness  which  had  not  been  observed  by  other  agents. 
He  undertook  to  hold  them  strictly  to  that  rule.  It'  he  was  to  issue  a 
certain  portion  of  flour,  tobacco,  coffee,  salt,  and  all  those  things,  he  is 
sued  just  that  much  and  nothing  more,  while  the  common  habit  has  been 
to  issue  a  larger  quantity  and  not  so  frequently.  For  instance,  there 
would  be  four  weekly  issues,  the  quantity  for  a  month  would  be  issued 
at  one  time,  or  they  might  wink  at  the  absence  of  certain  Indians,  allow 
somebody  else  to  represent  them,  and  not  require  them  to  be  there  in 
person  ;  but  Mr.  Meeker  held  them  very  strictly  to  the  rule.  That  inter 
fered  with  their  hunting  and  their  roaming  off  the  reservation. 

Q.  Were  not  these  Indians  in  the  habit  of  supplying  themselves  in 
part  from  the  chase  ? — A.  Yes,  sir,  in  a  limited  degree  ;  but  they  did 
not  care  so  much  for  the  chase  as  for  getting  away  from  the  agency  and 
roaming  through  the  country. 

Q.  They  were  not  dependent  upon  game,  then? — A.  Not  so  much  as 
they  depended  upon  supplies  from  white  settlers,  from  trading  and 
begging,  and  occasionally  from  stealing ;  mainly,  though,  from  trading 
and  begging.  They  considered  that  they  had  an  exclusive  right  on  the 
reservation,  and  a  common  right  with  white  men  everywhere  off  it.  That 
was  their  view.  You  never  could  secure  an  admission  from  them  that 
they  hadn't  the  same  right  to  roam  over  the  country  that  existed  before 
the  treaty.  I  have  talked  with  fully  a  hundred  of  them,  and  with  some  of 
them  a  great  number  of  times — Colorow,  Antelope,  Sahwitz,  Bannett, 
Mncisco,  Uncomgood,  Johnson,  and  I  do  not  know  how  many  others. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  massacre  at  the  White  Hiver 
Agency? — A.  No,  sir;  only  from  reports. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  fight? — A.  No,  sir. 
By  Mr.  GUNTER  : 

Q.  You  think  Mr.  Meeker's  trouble  arose  from  enforcing  the  law  rig 
idly  ? —  A.  Yes,  sir  ;  I  think  that  was  the  groundwork  of  his  trouble, 
that  he  was  more  strict  with  them  than  they  had  been  accustomed  to, 
and  more  strict  than  the  agents  of  the  other  bands  of  the  Ute  nation 
were,  and  consequently  they  felt  oppressed  by  Agent  Meeker.  When 
we  were  there  in  the  fall  of  1878  there  were  ninety-two  signed  the  roll 
for  their  weekly  issue  of  rations.  Each  one  was  required  to  come  and 
make  his  mark  on  the  roll.  They  had  to  be  there  in  person  in  the  room. 
They  did  not  all  make  the  mark  themselves,  but  delegated  some  one 
who  was  present  to  do  it  for  them.  For  instance,  Colorow,  the  agent 
told  me,  never  had  put  and  would  not  put  his  hand  to  the  paper,  but 
he  was  there  present  and  indicated  another  Indian  to  make  his  mark 
for  him.  Their  method  at  the  agency  was  this  :  They  came  into  the 
counsel  room  in  the  morning ;  the  roll  was  already  made  out,  and  as 
each  Indian  came  up  he  made  his  mark  opposite  his  name,  and  he  was 
handed  a  plug  of  tobacco  and  went  out.  In  the  afternoon,  after  all  had 
signed  this  roll,  and  each  had  received  his  plug  of  tobacco,  the  squaws 
came  with  their  ponies  and  got  the  beef  and  flour  and  other  supplies, 
and  took  it  away  to  the  camp.  If  an  Indian  had  two  squaws,  he  got  two 
plugs  of  tobacco  and  two  rations  ;  if  he  had  three,  he  got  three  plugs  of 
tobacco.  That  was  the  only  latitude  allowed  by  Mr.  Meeker,  that  a 
man  might  represent  himself  as  the  head  of  two  or  three  families. 

Q.  Was  there  any  serious  complaint  of  Mr.  Meeker's  plowing  the 
ground  ?— A.  They  objected  to  that  bitterly.  They  said  they  want 
ed  the  ground  for  grass  for  their  ponies.  I  have*  two  letters  show 
ing  the  spirit  of  Jack  as  long  ago  as  last  May.  The  first,  written  by  Mr. 
Post,  who  was  Mr.  Meeker's  chief  clerk,  and  dated  May  4,  i'879,  was 
read,  as  follows : 

JEL  Mis.  38 11 


162  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

WHITE  RIVER  AGENCY,  COLO.,  May  4,  1879. 
WM.  N.  BYERS,  Esq. : 

DEAR  SIR  :  I  happened  to  mention  your  name  in  Ufce  Jack's  hearing  last  evening,  and 
he  at  once  wanted  ine  to  write  you.  He  has  just  returned  from  Snake  River^vhere 
he  has  been  since  October  last.  He  wanted  me  to  say  to  you  that  now  he  is  a  ':  heap  " 
poor  man ;  has  only  four  lodges  in  his  camp.  Jack  left  here  with  a  big  band,  but  some 
how  they  have  left  him.  Jack  belongs  to  the  opposition  party,  and  objects  to  the  re 
moval  of  the  agency  and  of  the  Indians  working,  &c.  He  claims,  however,  that  when 
the  game  is  used  up,  then  it  will  be  time  enough  to  work.  Jack  wants  you  to  put  in  a 
good  word  for  him  at  Washington,  &c.  I  write  these  few  lines  to  please  him.  He 
wants  you  to  write  him  a  letter  in  answer  to  this. 
Yours,  respectfully, 

W.  H.  POST,  P.  M. 

A  second  letter,  dated  September  10,  1879,  received  from  Agent  N.  C, 
Meeker,  was  read,  as  follows  : 

UNITED  STATES  INDIAN  SERVICE, 
While  River  Agency,  Colo.,  September  10,  1879. 
W.  N.  BYERS, 

Denver,  Colo.: 

These  Indians  are  a  bad  lot  when  you  find  them  out.  They  have  stopped  our  plow 
ing  and  fencing,  and  "Johnson"  attacked  me  violently,  and  I  am  considerably  hurt. 
They  shot  at  a  man  plowing,  and  I  can  depend  on  none  of  them.  I  had  a  council  for 
two  days,  and  I  supposed  every  thing  settled;  but  nothing  is  settled.  I  have  dispatched 
to  Washington  that  I  want  protection,  and  written  to  Governor  Pitkin  and  Senator 
Teller  to  confer  with  General  Pope.  I  think  they  will  submit  to  nothing  but  force. 
How  many  are  rebellious  I  do  not  know ;  but  if  only  a  few  are,  and  the  rest  laugh  at 
their  outrages,  as  they  do,  and  think  nothing  of  it,  all  are  complicated.  I  didn't  come 
here  to  be  kicked  and  hustled  out  of  my  own  house  by  savages,  and  if  government 
cannot  protect  me,  let  somebody  else  try  it. 

You  know  the  Indians  and  understand  the  situation.    Please  see  Governor  Pitkin,  &c. 
I  don't  want  anything  but  the  bare  facts  of  their  hostility  to  get  into  the  papers. 
Future  movements,  if  printed,  will  reach    the  Indians  here  in   four   days.    This  I 
know. 

Truly, 

N.  C.  MEEKER. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  intrusions  by  miners  or  stock-herders,  or  stock- 
raisers  upon  their  reservation  ?— A.  I  do  not.  I  do  not  think  there  have 
been.  The  whites  have  been  very  conscientious. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  large  body  of  cattle  having  been  taken  near 
the  reservation  and  permitted  to  roam  over  or  graze  upon  the  reserva 
tion  ? — A.  I  do  not  think  there  are  any,  unless  it  may  be  from  the  Utah 
side,  and  I  don't  know  that  there  are  any  there.  It  was  reported  in  1877, 
that  the  Green  brothers,  who  were  killed  down  near  the  junction  of  the 
Guniiison  and  Grand  Eivers,  had  brought  in  a  band  of  cattle  from  the 
Utah  side ;  but  I  know  nothing  about  it.  They  disappeared  and  the 
body  of  one  of  them  was  afterwards  found.  I  think  the  other  one  has 
never  been  found. 

Q.  As  I  understand  it,  this  Middle  Park  is  a  part  and  parcel  of  that 
purchase  north  of  the  reservation? — A.  It  is  east  of  the  northeastern 
corner  of  the  reservation.  It  is  northeast  properly.  It  is  a  part  of  the 
purchase  of  1868. 

By  Mr.  WADDILL  : 

Q.  From  the  Sioux  ? — A.  No,  sir ;  the  purchase  was  from  the  Utes. 
Q.  I  thought  the  Utes  never  owned  that  ? — A.  Well,  they  claimed  it 
and  it  was  purchased  of  them. 
Q.  But  they  ceded  it  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  they  ceded  it. 

By  Mr.  POUND  : 
Q.  What  are  these  regions  designated  as  parks ?— A.^They  are  de- 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  163 

pressions  in  the  mountain  range  and  surrounded  by  mountains.    The 
word  "  park"  comes  from  their  old  Spanish  designation  "  pare." 

By  Mr.  POEHLER  : 

Q.  I  understood  you  that  one  of  those  men  who  were  with  you  when 
you  got  the  horses  was  very  desirous  of  learning  English  ;  do  you  think 
there  is  any  desire  generally  among  the  Utes  to  learn  English  ? — A.  No, 
sir;  it  is  very  limited.  Only  a  few  seem  to  care  anything  about  learn 
ing,  and  I  think  that  those  that  desire  it  at  all  intend  it  simply  as  a 
convenience  in  their  intercourse  with  their  white  neighbors.  That  is  the 
way  it  always  seemed  tome.  There  is  an  opposition  to  learning  it,  in 
fact;  they  state  explicitly  that  they  object  to  their  children  being  edu 
cated. 

By  Mr.  HASKELL  : 

Q.  Do  you  think  the  stoppage  of  supplies  from  Fort  Rawlins  had  any 
thing  to  do  with  this  White  River  outbreak  ? — A.  I  think  it  had  an  effect 
in  creating  dissatisfaction. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  the  agreement  with  the  Southern  Utes  and  the 
Uncompahgres  about  the  cession  of  a  portion  of  their  laud  for  another 
and  smaller  portion  affected  the  outbreak  of  the  White  River  Utes? 
Were  the  White  River  Utes  incensed  about  that? — A.  I  do  not  think 
they  cared  much  about  that.  It  may  have  had  a  slight  influence. 

Q.  Do  you  think  they  went  upon  the  war  path  because  of  depredations 
upon  their  territory  by  the  whites? — A,  No,  sir. 

Q.  Or  on  account  of  murder  of  some  of  their  people  by  the  whites? 
— A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Was  it  because  of  the  ranging  upon  their  reservation  of  cattle  be 
longing  to  the  white  peeple  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  think  they  went  upon  the  war  path  because  white  men  set 
fire  to  the  timber  in  the  immediate  vicinity  of  the  reservation?  Did  white 
men  set  fire  to  the  timber,  to  your  knowledge  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  Do  you  think  that  any  special  cause  for  the  outbreak  existed  be 
yond  the  conflict  between  the  agent  and  his  employes  in  the  execution 
of  the  law  and  the  opposition  of  the  Indians  to  it  ? — A.  I  think  that 
was  the  principal  and  almost  the  sole  reason. 

By  Mr.  GlJNTER : 

Q.  In  your  examination-in-chief  I  remember  you  stated  that  your  im 
pression  was  that  the  claim  that  they  had  to  that  country  north  and 
east  of  the  reservation  was,  to  a  considerable  extent,  the  cause  of  their 
dissatisfaction  and  of  the  outbreak  ? — A.  Well,  that  was  the  cause  of 
their  objection  to  the  settlement  of  the  country  by  white  men,  but 
whether  it  had  much  influence  in  this  final  outbreak  or  not  I  cannot  tell. 
I  am  inclined  to  think  not,  because  the  actual  settlement  of  the  country 
has  diminished  within  the  last  five  years. 

Q.  Didn't  that  idea  of  theirs  as  to  their  ownership  of  the  lands  create  a 
great  deal  of  dissatisfaction  against  the  people  in  Colorado  generally? 
— A.  Yes,  sir;  I  think  their  alleged  claim  was  the  ground  of  a  very 
considerable  measure  of  the  dissatisfaction,  but  I  never  thought  it  was 
a  sincere  claim  on  their  part;  I  think  they  set  it  up  as  a  visionary  claim, 
simply  as  an  excuse. 

Q.  Is  there  not  a  strong  disposition  on  the  part  of  the  Colorado  peo 
ple  to  remove  them  from  there  so  as  to  acquire  their  reservation  and  the 
supposed  mines  on  the  reservation  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  there  is  quite  a  strong 
desire  on  the  part  of  the  Colorado  people  that  they  should  be  removed. 

Q.  Does  that  inclination  arise  from  a  desire  to  acquire  their  reserva- 


164  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

tion,or  exclusively  from  the  depredations  that  the  Indians  commit  upon 
them,  or  from  both  J? — A.  I  think  mainly  from  the  depredations  or  the 
uneasy  feeling  produced  by  having  those  Indians  along  the  border.  I 
think  that  is  the  principal  reason.  Secondly,  there  is  a  desire  to  occupy 
a  portion  of  the  reservation.  There  is  only  a  small  portion,  I  think, 
that  any  one  at  present  cares  about  occupying. 

By  Mr.  DE EKING  : 

Q.  Is  there  a  general  feeling  of  terror  and  alarm  among  the  settlers  ? 
— A.  There  is  such  a  feeling  extending  back  one  hundred  miles  into  the 
settlement.  There  is  an  unreasonable  degree  of  terror. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN: 

Q.  Do  I  understand  you  that  there  is  no  dissatisfaction  among  the 
Indians  growing  out  of  the  fact  that  their  reservation  is  trespassed  upon 
by  the  herds  belonging  to  white  people  1 — A.  I  think  not.  I  asked  them 
particularly  on  that  point,  and  they  made  no  complaints  of  herds  tres 
passing  on  the  reservation,  and  I  know  of  no  one  trespassing  upon  it. 

Adjourned  to  Saturday,  February  7.  1880. 


WASHINGTON,  February  7,  1880. 

HENRY  C.  OLNEY  sworn  and  examined. 
By  Mr.  GUNTER  [in  the  chair] : 

Question.  State  your  residence  and  occupation. — Answer.  I  reside  at 
L  ike  City,  Colorado ;  am  register  of  the  land-offiss  for  the  San  Juan 
district,  and  publisher  of  the  Silver  World. 

Q.  We  are  investigating  the  Ute  outbreak  in  Colorado.  If  you  have 
any  information  which  will  throw  any  light  upon  it,  please  state  it. 

The  WITNESS.  My  statement  will  be,  first,  relative  to  my  observa 
tions  as  a  newspaper  man ;  and,  second,  as  to  my  official  investigations 
as  register  of  the  United  States  land-office.  In  the  first  place,  relative 
to  the  White  Eiver  Utes.  My  first  acquaintance  with  them  was  in  Den 
ver,  during  the  years  1871  to  1876,  during  which  time  they  frequently 
appeared  there ;  in  fact,  portions  of  the  bands  were  there  almost  con 
stantly,  paying  no  attention  whatever  to  the  reservation  lines.  In  1872, 
with  a  party  of  eight  others,  I  went  to  Middle  Park  on  a  hunting  and 
fishing  expedition,  and  there  we  met  Washington,  Pioha,  and  Colorow, 
with  their  three  bands.  We  had  camped  near  Hot  Sulphur  Springs. 
Upon  the  night  of  our  arrival  we  were  waited  upon  by  these  three  chiefs, 
and  notified  to  leave  the  next  morning.  They  said,  "  One  sleep,  you  go," 
and  we  were  compelled  to  leave  for  fear  of  our  lives.  They  threatened 
to  kill  us  if  we  didn't.  That  was  in  the  park,  about  sixty  five  or  sev 
enty  miles  from  the  reservation  line,  and  probably  about  one  hundred 
from  the  White  River  Agency,  so  that  they  were  off  their  reservation 
that  distance.  Mr.  William  Sumner  and  a  man  whose  first  name  was 
George  (I  cannot  recall  his  last  name)  were  in  charge  of  the  Hot  Sul 
phur  Springs,  then  owned  by  Mr.  Byers,  who  is  now  present.  While 
we  were  there  that  night  the  Indians  ordered  them  to  leave,  drawing 
their  revolvers  upon  them,  and  they  fled  in  terror,  and  abandoned  the 
place.  The  three  bands  then  took  possession  of  those  springs  and  re 
mained  there,  bathing  and  paying  no  attention  whatever  to  the  private 
rights  of  Mr.  Byers  or  any  other  parties  in  the  park.  All  this  was  out 
side  of  the  reservation  lines.  Mr.  Byers  alluded  the  other  day  to  the 
killing  of  the  Green  brothers.  As  publisher  of  the  Silver  World,  I 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  165 

gathered  the  facts  iu  that  case,  ami  went  down  and  investigated.  My 
evidence  was  obtained  from  James  H.  Durfee,  John  A.  Kimball,  and 
Ed.  S.  Finch,  who  came  over  from  Utah,  leaving  Salt  Lake  on  or  about 
the  17th  of  February,  1877.  When  they  arrived  at  what  is  called  the 
old  Mormon  Fort,  on  the  Grand  River,  they  found  there  a  place  where 
there  had  been  a  camp,  the  (Ubris  of  wagons,  a  large  number  of  cattle 
killed  and  the  carcasses  lying  there,  and  from  their  knowledge  that  the 
party  in  advance  of  them  was  the  Green  brothers,  they  were  satisfied 
that  this  was  their  camp,' and  that  they  had  been  murdered  by  the  In 
dians. 

By  Mr.  HOOKER  : 

Q.  You  are  stating  now  what  other  people  have  told  you  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir;  lam  testifying  from  the  investigation  that  I  made  of  the  subject. 
They  then  followed  and  found  in  a  little  stream  which  is  a  branch  of  the 
Grand  River  the  body  of  one  of  the  Green  brothers,  which  had  been 
dragged  from  this  camp  and  thrown  into  the  stream.  The  other  body 
they  never  had  found  up  to  my  last  accounts,  and  they  never  have  been 
heard  of  since  that  time.  The  Green  brothers  were  on  their  way  from 
what  is  called  the  Paradox  Valley  in  Utah  with  a  drove  of  cattle,  trav 
elling  on  what  is  called  the  old  Mormon  road,  a  public  thoroughfare  es 
tablished  by  the  government  a  great  many  years  ago,  and  which  is  now 
traveled  between  Southwestern  Colorado  and  Salt  Lake  City.  The 
murders  probably  occurred  about  the  30th  of  March.  The  old  Mormon 
fort  is  from  thirty  to  forty  miles  west  of  the  Utah  line,  and  about  200 
miles  from  the  town  of  Ouray,  so  that  is  a  long  distance,  probably  one 
hundred  and  odd  miles,  beyond  the  western  line  of  the  Ute  Reservation. 
These  parties  took  up  the  trail  of  the  Utes  and  trailed  them  to  the  Un- 
compahgre  Agency.  They  there  stated  that  these  men  had  been  mur 
dered,  and  demanded  of  Ouray  and  others  the  names  of  the  Indians  who 
had  murdered  them.  Ouray  and  the  other  chiefs  claimed  to  know 
nothing  about  it,  and  the  people  have  never  been  able  to  obtain  any  in 
formation  as  to  what  particular  Indians  killed  the  Greens,  but  they 
were  satisfied  that  they  had  been  killed  by  members  of  this  band. 

By  Mr.  HOOKER  : 

Q.  Who  were  satisfied ;  Ouray  or  these  other  persons  J? — A.  These 
gentlemen  who  gave  me  this  information. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Have  you  talked  with  the  Indians  about  this  J? — A.  I  never  have. 
Q.  With  Ouray  or  any  of  them  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

By  Mr.  HOOKER  : 

Q.  All  you  state  here  is  what  you  got  from  these  three  men  whose 
names  you  have  given. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Did  you  understand  that  the  Indians  denied  it? — A.  They  did  not 
pretend  to  deny  it  or  affirm  it.  They  did  not  say  either  way. 

As  register  of  the  United  States  land-office  for  that  district  I  was 
called  upon  last  summer  on  frequent  occasions  to  investigate  the  subject 
of  timber  depredations  and  fires  within  my  district.  The  country  was 
one  sheet  of  flame,  you  might  say,  for  miles  in  every  direction.  I  spent 
a  great  deal  of  time  in  the  fall  on  horseback  in  r.scertaiuing  the  causes 
of  these  fires.  The  first  investigation  I  made  was  upon  the  Powder 
Horn,  a  small  stream  flowing  into  the  White  Earth,  which  is  a  tributary 
of  the  Gunnison.  At  that  point  I  found  encamped  a  party  of  Ute  In- 


166  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

dians  under  the  command  of  Washington,  and  I  think  Antelope  also 
was  there.  They  were  encamped  off  their  reservation,  upon  the  pasture- 
lands  ot  E.  T.  Hotchkiss.  They  remained  there  several  days,  during 
which  time  they  appeared  at  his  house  nearly  every  day  and  compelled 
his  wife  to  cook  for  them  almost  constantly.  After  they  left  there,  and 
before  they  had  been  gone  half  an  hour,  the  whole  country  broke  out 
into  a  sheet  of  flame,  starting  from  their  camp,  and  that  "fire  spread 
over  the  mountain  range  in  two  directions  and  burnt,  I  suppose,  over 
fifty  thousand  acres  of  timber. 

My  next  investigation  was  up  the  Ohio  Creek,  a  tributary  to  the  Gun- 
nison,  coming  in  from  the  north.  Captain  Billy  claimed  that  a  man 
named  Travis  had  stolen  a  number  of  ponies  from  near  the  agency  and 
that  he  was  in  pursuit  of  him.  He  camped  near  the  head  of  Ohio  Creek 
in  this  pursuit,  and  wherever  he  camped,  as  soon  as  his  camp  was  broken 
up  fires  broke  out  and  spread  over  the  Crested  Butte  and  another 
range  below,  burning  several  thousand  acres  of  timber.  I  followed  his 
trail  down  on  East  Eiver  and  he  set  fire  all  through  the  bottoms  and  the 
timber  on  East  Eiver.  He  then  went  over  onto  Eoaring  Fork  and  these 
fires  followed  him  up  there,  burning  over,  I  suppose,  a  great  many  thou 
sand  acres  of  laud  in  that  direction.  The  Indians  went  up  to  the  head 
of  Taylor  Eiver  and  fires  followed  their  trail  wherever  they  went.  It  is 
impossible  to  say  the  number  of  acres  that  these  fires  covered,  but  it 
was  a  vast  area,  and  there  is  no  doubt  in  my  mind  or  in  the  minds  of 
the  people  generally  that  these  fires  were  set  for  the  purpose  of  driving 
people  away  from  the  settlements  and  making  the  country  useless  to  the 
whites. 

By  Mr.  ERRETT  : 

Q.  You  do  not  know  that? — A.  No,  sir;  that  is  my  inference. 
By  Mr.  HOOKER: 

Q.  It  is  a  mere  opinion  based  on  the  testimony  ?— A.  Yes,  sir. 

I  then  investigated  the  fires  over  on  the  Dolores  Eiver  on  the  west 
slope  of  the  mountains.  On  or  about  the  30th  of  August  a  baud  of  Ig- 
nacio's  Southern  Utes  went  to  the  ranch  of  Stephen  S.  Sharpe  and  James 
A.  Shaw,  near  Eico,  and  ordered  them  to  leave. 

By  Mr.  HOOKER  : 

Q.  How  did  you  get  that  information  ? — A.  From  the  parties  whose 
names  I  have  mentioned.  They  had  put  up  forty  or  fifty  tons  of  hay 
for  sale.  This  was  off  the  reservation  entirely,  but  the  Indians  have 
been  in  the  habit  of  hunting  through  there,  and  they  claim  it  as  a  part 
of  their  hunting-grounds.  These  parties  refused  to  go.  The  Indians 
then,  under  their  very  eyes,  set  fire  to  the  hay,  and  the  whole  of  it,  some 
forty  or  fifty  tons,  was  burnt  up.  Those  fires  spread  over  the  entire 
range  between  the  Dolores  and  the  San  Miguel,  again  burning  a  large 
area  of  country,  so  that  the  timber,  so  useful  in  our  mining  operations, 
has  been  destroyed  to  a  great  extent,  and  our  mining  interests  are 
greatly  crippled  thereby. 

By  Mr.  HOOKER  : 

Q.  What  are  you  reading  from  ? — A.  Simply  notes  of  my  own. 

On  the  same  trip,  about  the  27th  day  of  September,  1879,  I  ascer 
tained  that  the  fires  on  Maroon  Creek  had  been  set  by  a  band  of  White 
Eiver  Utes  who  had  passed  through  the  country.  That  was  upon  the 
evidence  of  L.  A.  Wait,  who  said  that  he  saw  the  fires  set  by  them.  In 
the  Gunnisou  Valley,  east  of  the  reservation,  some  distance  up,  there 
are  probably  one  hundred  settlers  whose  principal  occupation  is  the 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  167 

raising  of  hay.  Those  valleys  were  largely  burned  off  during  the  sum 
mer  by  those  fires,  which  were  claimed  to  have  been  set  by  Indians. 
During  the  month  of  June  of  last  year  a  band  of  Uncompahgres,  with 
Billy,  Wass,  and  Sam,  encamped  in  the  pasture  of  J.  B.  Outcalt,  who 
has  a  very  large  hay  ranch  and  a  large  number  of  horses  and  cattle. 
He  requested  them  to  leave  his  pasture,  and  they  told  him  they  would 
not  do  so.  They  remained  and  pastured  their  horses  in  his  meadow. 
He  drove  off  their  horses,  and  the  Indians  drove  them  back.  He  hired 
a  man  as  a  guard  by  night,  he  watching  by  day  himself.  During  the 
first  night  the  Indians  drove  off  the  man  who  was  on  guard,  and  de 
stroyed  the  entire  pasturage,  so  that  Outcalt  was  unable  to  harvest  any 
hay  whatever  from  his  meadow. 

By  Mr.  HOOKER  : 

Q.  Are  you  reading  now  from  manuscript  or  from  print? — A.  I  am 
testifying  from  manuscript  notes. 

Another  ranch  in  the  same  valley  is  owned  by  August  Mergelman, 
and  the  adjoining  ranch  is  owned  by  James  Preston.  The  Indians,  on 
this  expedition,  persistently  pastured  their  ponies  on  the  ranches  of 
these  two  parties  despite  their  requests  and  protestations,  and  destroyed 
their  entire  pasturage,  so  that  these  parties  had  to  borrow  money  to  buy 
supplies  for  the  present  winter.  One  day,  during  the  absence  of  Mer 
gelman,  they  demanded  of  Mrs.  Mergelman  that  she  should  cook  for  the 
entire  band ;  she  refused,  and  an  Indian  (whom  she  said  she  could  iden 
tify)  took  her  by  the  throat  and  told  her  that  he  would  kill  her  unless 
she  did  so.  She  yielded,  and  they  kept  her  cooking  nearly  the  entire 
day.  Her  husband  returned  that  night,  and  she  had  no  more  trouble. 

It  has  been  claimed  that  there  were  several  mining  camps  on  the  re 
servation.  It  was  claimed  here  by  the  Indian  Bureau,  and  statements 
have  been  published  to  that  effect.  I  was  called  upon  by  the  miners  of 
Euby  Camp  to  settle  the  question  whether  their  camp  was  upon  the  re 
servation  or  not,  their  idea  being  that  they  might  proceed  with  their  ap 
plications  for  a  patent  for  their  claims.  If  the  camp  was  upon  the  res 
ervation,  of  course  they  could  not  do  so,  and  their  mines  would  be 
worthless,  as  they  could  neither  get  a  title  for  them  nor  sell  them  or 
work  them.  They  were,  therefore,  anxious  to  have  the  question  settled. 
On  my  way  I  first  took  the  line  of  monuments  set  on  the  east  line  of 
the  reservation  on  the  White  Earth  River  and  the  Gunnison  Eiver.  I 
followed  the  line  up  Ohio  Creek  to  this  Euby  Camp,  and  near  the  upper 
end  of  Ohio  Creek  I  found  no  monuments,  but  I  was  told  by  the  miners 
that  the  line  was  upon  what  is  called  the  Big  Mountain.  Captain  Billy 
himself  told  the  miners  that  the  Euby  Camp  was  not  on  the  reserva 
tion  ;  that  the  Indians  did  not  claim  it  to  be.  According  to  my  best  cal 
culations,  it  is  probably  a  mile  and  a  half  east  of  the  reservation.  I  in 
vestigated  carefully  to  see  if  the  prospectors  in  that  camp  were  in  the 
habit  of  going  over  upon  the  reservation  prospecting,  and  I  could  not 
ascertain  that  there  had  been  a  single  case  of  that  kind.  I  know  per 
sonally  almost  all  the  miners  in  that  camp,  and  I  will  say  that  they  have 
shown  a  wonderful  forbearance  and  regard  fulness  of  the  rights  of  the 
Indians,  as  have  the  Colorado  people  generally.  They  have  refused  to 
go  upon  the  reservation  to  prospect,  while,  on  the  other  hand,  the  In 
dians  have  been  constantly  running  over  upon  the  adjoining  territory  of 
the  white  people  for  hundreds  of  miles  away  from  their  reservation. 
And  this  the  Utes  do  all  the  time,  apparently  upon  the  theory  that  the 
reservation  is  theirs  in  toto,  and  that  all  the  rest  of  the  public  domain 
belongs  to  them  equally  with  the  white  men.  Euby  Camp  is  the  only 


168  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

mining  camp  near  the  line.  I  investigated  the  whole  subject  on  the 
east  and  south  sides,  and  I  think  I  can  say  officially  that  there  is  not  a 
single  mining  camp  upon  the  Ute  Reservation.  In  this  connection,  Frank 
P.  Swindler,  a  deputy  United  States  mineral  surveyor,  who,  in  company 
with  E.  H.  Kellogg,  also  a  deputy  United  States  mineral  surveyor,  was 
making  a  survey  of  the  townships  in  the  vicinity  of  this  camp  (he  had 
already  located  his  township  lines),  told  me  that  according  to  his  official 
surveys  this  camp  was  one  mile  and  a  half  off  the  reservation. 

By  Mr.  HOOKER  : 

Q.  In  any  of  the  evidence  which  you  have  given  have  you  referred 
at  a)l  to  the  Utes  in  Southern  Colorado? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  Captain  Billy  is 
one  of  the  chiefs  of  the  Utes  at  the  Los  Pinos  Agency. 

Q.  Is  he  on  the  Southern  Colorado  Reservation 'f— A.  Yes,  sir;  adjoiu- 
ing  the  San  Juan  country. 

Q.  Have  you  referred  to  any  others  besides  him  ? — A.  The  first  part 
of  my  testimony,  about  my  being  ordered  out  of  the  Middle  Park,  and 
about  the  parties  keening  the  springs  being  driven  off,  was  all  there  was 
at  that  time  relative  to  the  White  River  Utes.  The  killing  of  the  Green 
brothers  was  by  the  Los  Pinos  Utes.  That  was  in  1877.  This  same 
Captain  Billy  shot  at  a  man  named  George  Tower  up  by  Mount  Carbon. 

Mr.-  HOOKER.  I  move  that  the  witness  be  restricted  in  his  testimony 
to  matters  of  which  he  has  personal  knowledge,  and  that  all  that  he  has 
already  stated  upon  information  derived  from  others  be  excluded  from 
the  record. 

Upon  this  motion  there  was  some  discussion.  The  stenographer,  by 
direction  of  the  committee,  read  over  the  whole  of  the  testimony  of  the 
witness  up  to  this  point,  whereupon  Mr.  Aiuslee  gave  notice  that  at  the 
next  meeting  of  the  full  committee  he  would  move  to  strike  out  so  much 
of  the  testimony  of  Governor  Pitkin,  and  of  all  other  witnesses,  as  re 
lates  to  the  policy  or  question  of  the  removal  of  the  Utes  from  Colorado, 
on  the  ground  that  the  same  is  irrelevant  and  does  not  come  within  the 
range  of  the  inquiry  authorized  by  the  resolution  of  the  House  under 
which  the  committee  is  acting  ;  also  to  strike  out  the  resolutions  of  the 
citizens  of  La  Plata  County,  Colorado,  adopted  the  day  after  Christmas, 
in  regard  to  the  removal  of  the  Indians  from  Colorado,  on  the  same 
ground. 

Mr.  GITNTER  (in  the  chair)  instructed  the  witness  to  confine  his  testi 
mony  hereafter  to  facts  within  his  personal  knowledge. 

The  WITNESS.  I  wish  to  explain  why  I  have  brought  in  this  last  part 
of  my  testimony.  The  purpose  is  to  show  the  connection  of  the  South 
ern  and  the  Uucompahgre  Utes  with  the  Milk  Creek  (Thoruburgh)  fight. 
The  testimony  of  George  Harrirnan,  if  it  could  be  had,  would  be  direct 
and  conclusive  on  that  point;  he  was  sent  to  Lake  City,  and  he  told 
me  that 

Mr.  Ainslee  objected  to  the  witness  stating  what  anybody  had  told 
him. 

The  WITNESS.  George  Harriman  was  a  messenger  sent  by  Ouray  and 
by  other  Indians  (probably  through  Ouray)  to  warn  the  settlers  to  be 
ware  of  the  White  Kiver  Utes,  that  a  general  Ute  outbreak  was  liable 
to  occur.  Harriman  told  me  that.  He  further  stated  that  portions  of 
these  bands  were  present  in  the  fight  at  White  River.  He  stated  this 
in  my  presence  and  in  the  presence  of  F.  C.  Peck  and  Herman  Lenders. 

By  Mr.  AINSLEE  : 

Q.  How  long  before  the  massacre  was  that  statement  made  ? — A. 
This  was  after  the  massacre. 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  169 

Q.  How  loDg  was  it  before  the  massacre  that  Ouray  told  him  that  ? — 
A.  It  was  after  the  massacre.  He  sent  word  through  him  to  the  set 
tlers  that  the  White  Eiver  Indians  if  pursued  by  the  troops  would  fall 
back  upon  the  settlement  in  the  Southwest. 

By  Mr.  HOOKER  : 

Q.  Were  you  brought  here  by  a  subpoena  ? — A.  I  was. 

Q.  From  Colorado  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q.  By  the  committee? — A.  Yes,  a  telegraphic  subpoena  by  the  Ser- 
geant-at-Arms. 

By  Mr.  GUNTER  (in  the  chair.)  You  speak  of  there  being  no  depreda 
tions  by  miners  in  the  east  and  south.  Do  you  know  of  any  mining 
camps  or  prospecting  parties  for  minerals  upon  any  portion  of  the  reser 
vation  ? — A.  I  do  not. 

By  Mr.  AINSLEE  : 

Q.  This  investigation  that  you  made  into  the  boundaries  of  the  reser 
vation — was  that  made  under  any  order  or  authority  from  the  Indian 
Bureau,  or  from  the  General  Land  Office  of  the  United  States,  or  was  it 
made  at  your  own  suggestion  ? — A.  It  was  made  under  the  authority 
which  had  been  given  land  officers  to  investigate  timber  depredations, 
and  by  the  instructions  of  the  Commissioner  of  the  General  Land  Of 
fice. 

Q.  You  had  no  special  instructions  for  that  work  ?— rA.  No,  sir.  It 
was  part  of  my  duty. 

By  Mr.  GUNTER  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  depredations  or  intrusions  upon  the  reservation 
by  stock  raisers,  either  immediately  upon  the  reservation,  or  near  the 
line  for  grazing  purposes? — A.  I  do  not;  I  don't  think  there  have  been 
any. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  complaints  in  that  regard  by  any  of  these  In 
dians,  particularly  the  Southern  TJtes  f — A.  I  do  not. 

Q.  Did  the  Indians  at  any  time  give  you  reasons  why  they  were  depre 
dating  upon  the  State,  burning  the  timber  and  driving  the  settlers  off  t 
— A.  Never  to  me  directly. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  them  give  any  reasons? — A.  I  have  never  heard 
them  give  any  reasons.  I  have  simply  heard  the  reports  of  other  par 
ties  of  what  they  did  state;  mere  hearsay,  general  reports. 

Q.  You  say  you  ran  that  line  near  that  camp,  and  followed  the  monu 
ments  up  to  the  camp;  how  far  apart  were  those  monuments? — A.  It 
depended  largely  upon  the  character  of  the  country.  A  portion  of  it  is 
valley,  and  a  portion  of  it  mountain.  In  the  valleys  they  would  be  some 
times  a  mile  apart,  and  on  the  mountains  it  would  depend  upon  the  tim 
ber.  They  have  a  mode  of  blazing  the  trees  on  the  mountain  side,  and 
there  the  monuments  were  quite  frequent. 

Q.  Easily  followed,  I  suppose  ? — A.  Yes,  sir. 

Q  When  you  followed  this  line  up  to  that  high  mountain,  taking  the 
range  from  the  monuments  and  marks  that  you  saw,  was  the  line  where 
it  was  indicated  to  you  by  the  miners  and  the  Indians,  near  the  top  of 
the  mountain?— A.  I  judged  it  to  be. 

Q.  From  your  investigation  as  stated  you  were  satisfied  that  the  camp 
was  a  mile  or  a  mile  and  a  half  off  the  reservation?— A.  I  was. 

Adjourned. 


170  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

WASHINGTON,  February  10,  1880. 

HENRY  C.  OLNEY  recalled  and  further  examined. 
By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  If  there  is  anything  further  which  you  can  state  in  regard 
to  the  late  Ute  outbreak,  which  you  can  state  of  your  own  knowledge, 
please  state  it. — Answer.  I  believe  I  have  stated  all  that  comes  within 
my  personal  knowledge.  The  only  thing  I  desire  to  say  further  is  to 
call  attention  to  the  connection  ot  these  incidents  that  I  have  related 
with  the  outbreak,  showing  that  the  outbreak  was  simply  the  culmina 
tion  of  a  spirit,  long  manifest,  of  opposition  to  civilization  and  the  set 
tlement  of  the  country  adjoining  the  reservation,  and  that,  in  accord 
ance  with  my  testimony  yesterday,  the  Uncompahgre  and  the  Southern 
Utes  were  in  the  Thornburgh  fight. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  that? — A.  Nothing,  except  what  I 
have  testified  to — the  statement  of  Mr.  Harriinan  to  me,  which  I  made 
part  of  my  testimony  yesterday.  Therefore  I  say  in  ray  deductions  that 
these  incidents  show  that  the  Uncompahgre  and  Southern  Utes  were 
preparing,  just  as  the  White  Kiver  Utes  were,  for  this  outbreak. 

Mr.  HOOKER.  I  object  to  the  witness  testifying  to  anything  except 
facts  that  are  within  his  own  personal  knowledge. 

The  WITNESS.  I  have  no  further  statements  to  make. 


WASHINGTON,  February  13,  1880. 

J.  S.  PAYNE,  captain  Fifth  United  States  Cavalry,  sworn  and  ex 
amined. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  We  have  summoned  you  to  see  if  you  can  throw  any 
light  upon  the  Ute  outbreak  into  which  we  are  inquiring.  Our  juris 
diction  does  not  extend  beyond  the  outbreak  and  the  causes  thereof. 
5Tou  may  state  all  you  know  in  regard  to  it — the  approach  of  the  soldiers, 
the  fight  and  what  brought  it  on,  and  what  you  learned  from  the  Indians 
as  to  their  causes  of  complaint. 

The  WITNESS.  Major  Thornburgh's  command,  composed  of  three  com 
panies  of  cavalry  and  one  of  infantry,  left  Fort  Steele,  Wyoming,  on  the 
21st  day  of  September  last,  under  orders  for  the  White  Kiver  Agency. 
Major  Thornburgh  was  directed  to  confer  with  the  agent,  as  my  informa 
tion  goes,  to  take  such  steps  as,  after  his  conference  with  Mr.  Meeker, 
he  should  think  necessary  to  bring  about  a  condition  of  quiet  at  the 
agency,  and,  perhaps,  to  make  some  arrests. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  From  whom  did  he  get  his  orders? — Answer.  From  the 
department  commander. 

The  command  reached  Bear  Kiver  on  the  26th.  While  in  camp  there 
we  were  visited  by  Jack,  a  subchief  of  the  White  River  Utes  ;  Sahwitz, 
a  chief  5  Unque,  an  Uncompahgre  Indian,  and  several  others.  Unque 
had  a  pass  purporting  to  be  signed  by  Mr.  Stanley,  the  agent  of  the 
Uncompahgre  Agency,  as  I  understand  it,  and  he  was  represented  in 
this  pass  to  be  a  good  Indian.  This  pass  gave  him  permission  to  visit 
the  White  Kiver  Agency.  These  Indians  conferred  with  Major  Thorn 
burgh  and  the  rest  of  the  officers,  I  being  present  at  all  the  interviews. 
Jack,  seeming  to  take  the  lead,  appeared  very  much  exercised  about 
the  coming  of  the  troops.  This  was  at  Bear  Kiver,  about  sixty  miles 
from  the  agency,  and  about  forty-five  miles  from  the  reservation.  In 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  171 

this  interview  Jack  complained  very  bitterly  of  the  agent,  Mr.  Meeker. 
He  stated  that  the  agent  had  tried  to  make  them  farm  and  plow,  and 
that  he  had  failed  to  fulfill  a  great  many  of  his  promises  to  them. 
Among  other  things,  I  recollect  his  principal  grievance  seemed  to  be 
something  about  a  wagon.  He  stated  that  Mr.  Meeker  had  promised 
him  a  new  wagon  with  red  paint  on  it,  and  when  he  had  insisted  upon 
its  being  p;iven  him,  Mr.  Meeker  had  offered  him  an  old  wagon  from  which 
pretty  much  all  the  paint  had  been  rubbed  off,  and  he  had  refused  it. 
Jack  laid  more  stress  upon  that  circumstance  than  any  other  cause  of 
complaint  that  he  had.  His»  language  in  speaking  of  Mr.  Meeker  was 
excessively  abusive.  While  talking  of  other  matters  he  would  con 
stantly  recur  to  the  subject  of  Mr.  Meeker,  and  refer  to  him  in  the  most 
vituperative  terms.  The  Indians  speak  broken  English,  which  we  can 
understand,  from  habit,  pretty  well,  arid  we  gather  the  meaning  by  their 
expressions  quite  easily.  Jack  asked  us  the  number  of  our  force,  which 
Major  Thornburgh  told  him  without  hesitation,  and  he  looked  around 
the  camp ;  that  is,  he  glanced  around  it;  he  did  not  make  any  effort  to  go 
through  it  or  count  the  horses,  or  anything  of  that  sort.  He  insisted 
upon  knowing  what  the  troops  were  coming  for.  He  asked  that  ques 
tion  a  number  of  times,  and  I  recollect  that  Major  Thornburgh's  reply 
was  pretty  much  what  all  our  replies  were  (because  he  asked  this  ques 
tion  of  everybody),  to  the  effect  that  there  was  some  trouble  at  the  agency; 
that  the  agent  had  asked  for  troops,  and  that  we  were  going  through  to 
see  what  he  wanted.  That  was  about  the  sum  and  substance,  as  I  re 
member  it,  though  perhaps  not  the  language  of  the  conversation  on  the 
part  of  the  officers.  Jack  left  with  bis  party  about  sundown,  and  went 
down  to  a  ranch  near  there,  and,  as  we  were  informed,  proceeded  to 
the  agency  that  night. 

By  Mr.  HOOKER  : 

Q.  About  what  number  of  Indians  composed  Jack's  party  ? — A.  Sah- 
witz,  Jack,  Uuque,  and  one  or  two,  perhaps  three  others ;  I  do  not 
know  the  exact  number.  The  next  night  we  camped  sixteen  miles  far 
ther  on,  at  Williams's  Fork  of  Bear  Kiver,  where  we  were  visited  by 
Colorado  (commonly  called  Oolorow),  the  Indian  interpreter  Henry,  an 
Indian  named  "Bummer"  Jim,  and  one  or  two  others  whose  names  I 
don't  remember.  These  Indians  were  accompanied  by  an  employe  of 
the  agency,  Mr.  Eskridge,  who  brought  a  letter  to  Major  Thornburgh 
from  Mr.  Meeker.  In  this  letter,  which  Major  Thornburgh  showed  to 
me,  Mr.  Meeker  suggested  to  him  that  in  view  of  the  excitement  which 
was  prevailing  among  the  Indians  at  the  agency  and  which  he  was  en 
deavoring  to  allay,  Major  Thornburgh  had  better  come  in  with  five  sol 
diers  and  hold  a  conference  with  the  chiefs  at  the  agency.  He  also 
stated  that  the  Indians,  being  very  much  excited,  he  was  apprehensive 
of  trouble,  and  he  suggested  this  means  of  conferring  with  them  with 
out  the  presence  of  a  large  force,  as  probably  the  best  way  to  avoid  a 
collision.  An  answer  to  that  letter  was  dispatched  by  Major  Thorn 
burgh.  1  did  not  see  the  answer  but  I  heard  it  read.  That  letter,  I  no 
tice,  does  not  appear  in  the  published  correspondence  between  Mr. 
Meeker  and  Major  Thornburgh ;  it  has  dropped  out ;  but  if  you  will 
observe  the  last  letters  of  that  correspondence,  as  published,  you  will  see 
that  a  letter  is  missing.  One  of  Mr.  Meeker's  letters  makes  reference  to 
this  one  of  Major  Thornburgh's.  The  substance  of  that  letter  was  that 
Major  Thoruburgh  stated  that  he  would  accede  to  the  general  proposi 
tion  of  Mr.  Meeker.  Mr.  Meeker  had  suggested  that  he  halt  his  com 
mand  some  considerable  distance  from  the  agency  either  where  he  was 


172  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

or  at  some  point  near  there,  and  Major  Thornburgh  replied  that  he 
would  come  into  the  agency  with  five  soldiers,  his  adjutant,  I  think, 
and  his  guide,  stating,  however,  that  he  would  either  halt  his  command 
there  or  at  some  point  nearer  the  agency,  not  giving  any  definite  dis 
tance  as  his  point  of  camping. 

Q.  Were  the  Indians  apprised  of  the  contents  of  Mr.  Meeker's  letter 
and  of  the  contents  of  Major  Thornbnrgh's  reply? — A.  Yes,  sir;  they 
were.  That  is,  these  Indians  did  not  speak  the  English  language,  with 
the  exception  of  Henry,  the  interpreter,  but  he  was  told  to  tell  them 
what  was  in  those  letters,  and  he  told  them  something  in  the  Indian 
language  which  purported  to  be  the  contents  of  the  letters. 

By  Mr.  WADDILL  : 

Q.  Were  they  informed  of  the  request  of  the  agent  for  troops  ?— A. 
No,  sir;  this  was  a  request  of  the  agent,  that  Major  Thornburgh  should 
halt  his  command  and  proceed  to  the  agency  with  a  small  body  and 
hold  a  conference  with  the  chiefs.  They  knew  and  had  known  for  a 
long  time  that  the  troops  were  coming.  These  Indians  appeared  to  be 
very  surly,  especially  Colorow.  I  re  ollect  that  he  refused  to  smoke 
when  invited,  which  is  the  strongest  evidence  that  an  Indian  can  give 
of  unkindly  feeling;.  But  they  finally  departed.  Mr.  Eskridge,  how 
ever,  remained  until  the  next  night.  After  reaching  camp  next  day 
Major  Thornburgh  sent  for  some  of  the  officers,  myself  among  the  num 
ber,  and  I  think,  perhaps  all  of  us,  and  he  stated  that  he  had  been 
thinking  of  this  matter  during  the  day  and  th.it  he  was  satisfied  that, 
under  his  orders,  he  had  taken  a  little  too  much  responsibility  in  con 
senting  to  keep  bis  command  so  far  from  the  agency,  and  he  asked 
our  advice  about  it.  I  remember  that  he  asked  my  advice  first, 
as  I  was  the  senior  in  rank  next  to  himself.  My  reply  was  that 
I  disapproved  of  his  action  the  night  before;  that  I  had  tried 
to  catch  his  eye  and  to  advise  against  it  and  had  failed,  but  that 
now  that  he  had  committed  himself  to  it  he  would  have  to  carry  the 
arrangement  out  to  a  certain  extent.  Then  he  asked  me  what  modifi 
cation  I  would  suggest,  and  I  said  to  him  that  I  thought,  under  his 
orders,  he  could  not  halt  his  command  at  a  point  so  distant  from  the 
agency  ;  that  if  he  should  leave  his  command  and  go  on  with  a  small 
detachment  of  men,  and  they  should  be  attacked  and  massacred  (which 
I  thought  was  quite  probable),  the  command  would  be  at  so  remote  a 
point  that  it  could  neither  give  them  assistance  nor  be  at  hand  to  punish 
the  Indians  if  they  committed  this  outrage;  so  that  my  suggestion  to 
to  him  would  be  that  he  should  march  his  command  during  the  day  to 
Milk  Creek,  or  some  point  near  there,  and  go  into  camp  ;  that  he,  either 
that  night  or  early  in  the  morning  (I  think  my  suggestion  was  that 
night),  should  go  on  with  the  five  men  to  the  agency.  In  the  mean 
time  the  command  would  go  into  camp  just  as  under  ordinary 
circumstances,  pitch  their  tents,  and  go  through  all  the  forms  of  encamp 
ment  for  the  night;  then,  as  soon  as  it  became  dark,  I  would  take  the 
cavalry  column  and  carry  it  through  the  canon  and  place  it  near  the 
agency;  that,  as  the  Ir.dians  would  see  him  going  on  into  the  agency, 
they  would  follow  him  if  they  were  on  the  lookout,  supposing  that  he 
was  carrying  out  his  programme,  and  we  could  get  through  without 
trouble,  and  that  then  the  command  would  be  within  supporting  dis 
tance,  and  yet  meet  the  requirement  of  the  Indians,  not  to  go  to  the 
agency.  My  impression  is  that  we  discussed  both  plans,  as  to  whether 
it  should  be  done  in  the  morning  or  at  night;  but  the  latter  was  agreed 
,  upon.  Major  Thornburgh  asked  me  to  write  a  letter  to  Mr.  Meeker, 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  173 

which  I  did.  The  last  letter  in  that  correspondence  was  written  by  me 
at  his  request.  That  letter  notified  Mr.  Meeker  of  the  change  in  Major 
Thornburgh's  movements  5  that  he  intended  to  comply  with  the  request 
of  the  Indians,  so  far  as  going  to  the  agency  was  concerned,  but  indi 
cating  that  he  was  going  to  carry  his  command  within  striking  distance 
of  the  agency  in  case  of  trouble.  The  letter  was  dispatched  by  Eskridge, 
who  left  our  camp  about  sundown  on  the  28th  of  September.  We 
afterwards  learned*  that  he  was  killed  at  some  distance  from  the  agency. 
Whether  the  letter  ever  reached  Mr.  Meeker  or  not  we  do  not  know,  or 
whether  Mr.  E-'kridge  ever  got  back  to  the  agency.  He  had  abundance 
of  time  to  ^et  there,  but  he  may  have  been  killed  going  in,  or  he  may 
have  gone  in  and  been  killed  in  trying  to  escape  from  there.  There 
was  a  rumor,  however,  of  a  letter  from  Mr.  Meeker  to  Major  Thornburgh 
having  been  found,  which  was  published  in  the  newspapers.  A  part  of 
that  letter  as  published  stated  that  Mr.  Meeker  had  received  this  letter 
ficrn  Major  Thornburgh  and  liked  his  last  programme  better  than  the 
first ;  that  he  was  glad  that  the  troops  were  coming  closer  to  the  agency. 
If  that  be  correct,  of  course  Eskridge  got  into  the  agency  and  delivered 
his  letter  ;  but  I  have  never  seen  any  authoritative  statement  as  to  the 
discovery  of  this  letter  from  Mr.  Meeker.  On  the  next  morning  (the 
29th)  we  marched  to  Milk  Creek.  We  halted  and  watered  our  stock  at 
the  creek.  They  call  it  a  river. 

Just  before  we  got  to  this  stream  we  passed  the  wagon  train  of  the 
Indian  contractor,  Mr.  France,  of  Eawlins,  hauling  supplies  down  to  the 
agency.  It  was  under  the  charge  6f  Mr.  John  Gordon.  Wd  passed  this 
train  on  the  hill,  and  we  noticed,  just  as  we  descended  into  the  bed  of 
the  creek,  some  newly-started  tires  burning,  and,  as  I  discovered  after 
wards,  these  train-people  of  the  train  informed  some  of  the  soldiers  that 
Indians  had  passed  them  before  we  reached  them,  coming  from  the  di 
rection  which  we  were  approaching,  and  told  them  to  keep  out  of  the 
way,  that  there  was  going  to  be  a  tight  with  the  soldiers.  In  this  con 
nection  I  would  like  to  mention  an  incident.  That  night,  after  the 
fight  was  pretty  well  over  for  the  day — it  was  nearly  night,  but  I  remem 
ber  we  could  still  see — one  of  Mr.  Gordon's  teamsters  brought  to  me  a 
sheet  of  paper  about  the  size  of  letter-paper.  It  was  dirty  and  rumpled. 
In  that  were  the  rough  drafts  of  what  were  intended  to  be  the  bodies  of 
three  of  four  men  with  holes  through  them,  as  if  to  represent  bullet 
holes,  and  underneath  were  tracings,  horizontal,  wavy  lines,  after  the 
manner  of  a  man's  handwriting 5  and  this  man  reported  to  me  that  he 
had  found  this  paper  hanging  on  a  bush  on  the  hill  where  we  had  passed 
his  train.  I  have  observed  in  the  newspapers  reference  to  some  "  pic 
tures,"  and  I  thought  I  would  mention  this  to  explain  the  foundation  for 
that  story.  This  is  the  whole  foundation  for  it,  so  far  as  I  know. 

After  watering  our  stock,  we  moved  down  the  creek  500  or  600  or 
1,000  yards,  perhaps,  crossed  it,  and  took  the  trail  which  led  up  over 
the  hills  to  the  left.  The  old  Indian  trail  crosses  the  road  repeatedly. 
The  road  winds  in  and  out  among  the  mountains,  and  the  trail  makes  a 
good  many  cut-offs,  and  the  cavalry  column  would  frequently  take  the 
trails  while  the  wagons  would  follow  the  road.  There  were  two  compa 
nies  in  advance — rny.own  and  Captain  Lawson's — and  the  other  remained 
with  the  wagon  train.  I  forgot  to  state  that  the  company  of  infantry  had 
been  left  back  at  Fortification  Creek,  60  or  75  miles  from  the  agency. 
After  we  had  proceeded  on  this  trail  for  half  amile,  perhaps,  my  company 
was  descending  quite  a  precipitous  hill  into  a  little  narrow  valley,  when 
Lieutenant  Cherry,  who  was  off  to  the  right  some  short  distance  with 
some  of  the  scouts  and  a  party  of  soldiers,  was  observed  waving  his 


174  UTE   INDIAN    OUTBREAK, 

hat,  and  we  knew  at  once  what  that  meant — that  there  were  Indians 
around — and  my  company  was  at  once  conducted  to  the  high  ground  to 
the  left  of  the  trail  and  there  dismounted,  and  a  skirmish  line  was  de 
ployed.  Captain  Lawson,  who  was  still  on  the  crest  of  the  ridge,  also 
dismounted  his  company  and  deployed  them.  In  the  mean  time  the 
military  position  was  assumed  by  the  horses,  and  Major  Thorn  burgh  came 
up  on  the  high  ground  where  I  was,  and  we  commenced  to  look  around 
to  see  what  we  could  observe.  I  don't  remember  just  when  it  was  that 
I  saw  Lieutenant  Cherry,  but  I  must  have  seen  him  somewhere  about 
this  time.  He  made  a  report  to  me  of  what  he  had  seen.  While  we 
were  up  on  t  his  hill,  Major  Thornburgh  and  myself  both — we  were  stand 
ing  together — made  efforts  to  communicate  with  these  Indians  by  sig 
naling.  I  recollect  that  he  took  his  handkerchief  and  waved  it  to 
them,  and  I  did  the  same,  and  several  of  the  Indians  answered  these 
signals.  They  were  away  off  on  their  right  and  to  our  left,  some  four 
hundred  yards  from  us.  Lieutenant  Cherry,  in  the  mean  time,  was 
down  at  the  other  end  of  the  line,  and  making  an  effort,  as  he  after 
wards  officially  reported,  to  communicate  with  them  there.  These  In 
dians  that  were  in  front  of  us — there  were  two  or  three  of  the  party 
that  were  answering  our  signals  and  observing  us — they  would  approach 
us  a  short  distance  and  then  halt,  proceeding  very  cautiously  and  taking 
advantage  of  any  obstructions  in  the  ground  to  keep  out  of  range,  and 
while  our  efforts  were  going  on,  or  while  mine  were — it  is  possible  that 
Major  Thornburgh  may  have  moved,  because  this  took  some  considerable 
time — while  this  signaling  was  going  on,  I  heard  a  shot  fired  away  down 
at  the  right  of  the  line.  This  was  followed  almost  instantly  by  other 
shots. 

By  Mr.  HOOKER  : 

Q.  Was  that  shot  fired  by  the  Indians? — A,  That  I  do  not  know,  ex 
cept  from  Lieutenant  Cherry's  official  report.     He  reported  to  me  that 
that  shot  was  fired  by  an  Indian,  and  I  think  that  it  wounded  his  horse, 
or  somebody  else's  horse. 
By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Did  you  see  Lieutenant  Cherry  when  he  waved  his  hat  ? — A.  No, 
sir  5  he  was  out  of  sight.  When  I  speak  of  his  waving  his  hat  the  first 
time  it  has  no  connection  with  the  other  transaction  when  he  waved  his 
hat  to  signal  them.  There  was  some  time  intervening  between  the  two- 
acts.  When  I  heard  this  firing  I  did  not  wait  for  any  orders,  but  turned 
around  and  directed  my  men  to  open  fire  on  the  Indians,  which  they 
did.  I  did  not  wait  to  investigate  where  the  shot  came  from.  My 
knowledge  of  Indian  affairs  was  such  that  1  knew  we  had  an  Indian 
fight  on  our  hands  then  and  there,  and  I  directed  the  fire  to  be  opened 
at  once.  In  a  few  minutes  they  killed  two  of  my  men,  and  I  think  that 
we  killed  a  half  dozen  of  them  right  there.  They  were  very  close  to 
us,  apparently  trying  to  turn  our  flank,  which  they  afterwards  succeeded 
iu  doing,  and" concentrated  in  our  rear,  and  after  fighting  there  for  some 
time  Major  Thoruburgh  came  to  the  conclusion  that  he  would  be  com 
pelled  to  fall  back  upon  the  wagon  train, 
By  Mr.  HOOKER  : 

Q.  How  long  did  the  fight  continue  ? — A.  I  do  not  know.  It  was 
short  and  sharp.  It  did  not  last  long.  I  do  not  think  it  continued  over 
three-quarters  of  an  hour. 

Q.  About  what  number  of  Indians  were  engaged  ?— A.  Well,  sir,  I 
make  up  my  estimate  from  the  official  reports  as  well  as  from  what  I 
saw,  and  I  should  say  from  300  to  400. 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  175 

Q.  What  was  your  own  command,  including  the  cavalry  companies  ? — 
A.  The  two  cavalry  companies  in  the  fight  there  (you  see  this  was  a 
mile  and  a  half  from  our  wagon  traiu)  numbered  somewhere  between 
95  and  100  ;  less  than  100  men. 

Q.  Whereabouts  was  this  fight  with  reference  to  Milk  Kiver  and  the 
agency  ! — A.  Fifteen  miles  from,  the  agency,  and  substantially  upon  the 
border  line  of  the  reservation,  and  about  a  mile  or  a  mile  and  a  quarter 
from  the  nearest  point  to  Milk  River,  and  it  was  a  mile  and  a' half  back 
to  our  wagon  train. 

Q.  When  you  attempted  this  retreat  did  the  Indians  still  continue  to 
tire? — A.  Yes,  sir;  when  we  attempted  to  retreat  they  still  fired  upon 
us,  and  made  a  number  of  efforts  to  break  up  our  lines  and  to  turn  our 
skirmish  lines,  but  were  foiled  in  their  movements,  and  they  then  con 
centrated,  as  I  have  stated,  in  our  rear.  They  seemed  to  leave  us  in 
front  and  to  direct  their  efforts  upon  the  wagon  train  and  upon  the  line 
of  our  retreat.  A  charge,  however,  drove  them  off  the  hill  which  they 
had  occupied,  and  the  line  of  communication  back  to  the  corral  was 
opened.  It  was  about  this  time  that  Major  Thorn  burgh  was  killed. 
Nobody  knows  just  when  or  just  how  he  was  killed.  He  seems  to  have 
been  by  himself. 

Q.  He  was  killed  on  this  retreat? — A.  He  was  killed  on  the  retreat. 
My  impression  is  that  he  was  proceeding  along  the  road  leisurely  and 
looking  out  to  see  what  was  best  to  do,  and  that  he  was  picked  off  by  a 
sharpshooter  at  long  range,  because  I  know  there  were  no  Indians  close 
to  the  position  where  he  was  found.  I  went  over  the  ground  myself 
within  five  minutes  of  the  time  he  was  killed,  either  before  or  after. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Were  there  any  other  men  killed  at  the  same  time? — A.  There  were 
two  men  of  my  company  killed,  but  they  were  killed  within  a  few  min 
utes  of  the  commencement  of  the  tight  ;  not  with  Thornburgh.  There 
were  no  men  killed  in  this  fight  outside  of  the  corral  except  the  two 
men  of  my  company  and  Major  Thornburgh  himself.  All  the  other  fatal 
casualties  occurred  afterwards  at  the  corral.  When  I  got  back  to  the 
train  I  found  the  wagons  very  badly  parked,  a  great  many  horses  killed, 
and  a  large  number  of  them  wounded.  They  were  all  concentrated  in 
a  little  space,  perhaps  not  over  seventy-five  yards  long  by  twenty-five 
wide,  and  the  Indians  upon  the  high  bluffs  upon  the  north  and  the  south 
side  of  the  position  were  pouring  a  plunging  fire  into  this  corral.  The 
first  thing  done,  of  course,  was  to  shoot  some  horses  to  drop  them  in 
places  where  they  could  be  used  as  cover  for  sharpshooters.  Some  thirty 
or  forty,  I  think,  were  shot  by  my  order.  The  sharpshooters  were  put 
behind  them  and  we  commenced  to  get  things  in  shape  and  confidence 
among  the  men  a  little  restored.  I  then  sent  a  party  out  to  cover  the 
retreat  of  Captain  Lawson  and  Lieutenant  Cherry,  who  were  on  foot. 
The  most  of  their  led  horses  had  come  in,  and  their  commands  were 
fighting  slowly  back  to  the  camp  on  foot.  They  got  back  without  any 
fatal  casualties  and  took  their  places  in  the  corral.  From  that  time  on 
until  night  it  was  just  a  fight  without  much  system  about  it.  The  In 
dians  were  firing  from  these  hills  and  ravines,  within  thirty  or  forty 
yards  of  us,  but  were  kept  so  well  down  that  they  could  not  take  very 
accurate  aim.  They  had  to  rise  and  fire  suddenly  at  the — firing  at  the 
corral,  rather  than  at  individual  person.  But  they  did  a  great  deal  of 
damage.  Before  night  we  had  nine  more  men  killed,  one  fatally  wounded,. 
and  forty-three  men  wounded,  including  those  outside. 


176  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

By  Mr.  HOOKER  : 

Q.  There  was,  then,  no  post  conference  between  Major  Thornburgh 
and  the  Indians  or  between  any  of  the  command  and  the  Indians  at  the 
time  the  fight  began  ? — A.  None  whatever. 

Q.  There  was  no  meeting  by  MajorThornburgh  with  the  five  or  six  sol 
diers  as  agreed  upon  previously  ? — A.  No,  sir  ;  Major  Thornburgh,  I  am 
satisfied,  was  goingintocampat  a  pointv-ery  near  where  we  wereatacked. 
We  did  hot  camp  on  Milk  Creek,  because  at  the  point  where  we  found 
water  there  was  no  wood,  and  where  we  found  wood  there  was  no  water, 
and  I  am  satisfied,  though  we  had  no  positive  conversation  on  the  sub 
ject,  that  it  was  his  intention  to  camp  there.  During  the  afternoon  the 
Indians  made  a  number  of  efforts  to  dislodge  us,  the  principal  attempt 
being  made  by  firing  the  grass.  There  was  a  high  wind  blowing  up  the 
creek  bottom,  and  taking  advantage  of  that  they  set  fire  to  the  dry  grass 
and  sage  brush,  of  which  the  valley  was  lull,  trusting  to  the  wind  to  drive 
the  fire  up  towards  our  corral.  It  was  then  that  I  burnt  this  train  of 
Mr.  Gordon's  containing  the  Indian  supplies,  and  I  also  burnt  off  all  the 
ground  that  I  could  with  safety  to  the  corral,  under  cover  of  the  smoke 
arising  from  the  Indian  fire  which  prevented  them  from  seeing  what  we 
were  doing,  and  the  consequence  was  that  when  the  fire  struck  us  there 
was  very  little  of  the  corral  exposed,  and  we  were  enabled  to  put  the  fire 
out,  though  not  without  a  loss  of  five  men  killed  and  ten  or  twelve 
wounded  within  a  few  minutes.  These,  however,  are  included  in  the 
total  number  of  casualties  that  I  have  already  given.  At  night  the  Indi 
ans  made  a  charge  upon  us,  thirty  or  forty  of'them  charging  up  to  within 
perhaps  forty  yards  of  our  position,  but  we  knocked  over  three  or  four  of 
them  and  repulsed  the  charge,  and  that  was  the  last  serious  demonstration 
they  made  either  that  day  or  afterwards.  That  night  we  dragged  out  our 
dead  animals,  dug  iutrenchments,  and.  went  into  a  state  of  siege,  and 
started  couriers  off  with  the  news  to  the  railroad  with  instructions  to 
telegraph  to  the  Department  commander  for  the  assistance  which  we 
knew  would  come.  We  were  in  no  danger  after  that,  in  my  judgment. 
Of  course  there  was  danger  of  any  individual  who  exposed  himself  be 
ing  shot,  but  for  the  command,!  do  not  think  there  was  a  particle  of 
danger  after  that  night.  Upon  the  morning  of  the  5tli  of  October,  Gen 
eral  Merritt,  colonel  of  the  Fifth  Cavalry,  came  in  with  a  column  to  our 
relief.  About  two  or  three  hours  after  he  arrived  he  took  one  of  the 
companies  of  cavalry  that  he  had  brought  in  and  started  out  to  look  at 
the  battle  field,  the  place  where  the  fight  had  commenced,  and  while  up 
there  he  was  attacked  by  the  Indians.  The  command  at  once  got  out — 
it  was  then  pretty  formidable,  there  being  about  four  times  as  many  troops 
as  we  had  had — and  the  Indians  were  driven  off  without  any  trouble  at 
all.  They  still,  however,  kept  up  a  rambling  fire  from  the  hills.  After 
a  time  we  saw  a  white  flag  raised  upon  an  eminence,  when  Gene 
ral  Merritt  had  a  signal  to  cease  firing  trumpeted,  and  an  agent  or  messen 
ger,  a  white  man,  came  in  from  the  Uncompahgre  Agency  with  a  copy 
of  an  order  which  Ouray  had  sent  to  the  White  River  Utes,  directing 
them  to  cease  fighting ;  and  after  that  there  was  no  more  fighting  up  to 
the  time  I  left  there,  which  was  the  10th  of  October. 

To  go  back  a  little  in  the  narrative,  upon  the  night  of  the 
25th  of  September,  a  man  by  the  name  of  Lowery,  who  was  employed 
as  a  guide  by  Major  Thornburgh,  was  sent  to  Mr.  Meeker  with  a  letter. 
I  do  not  know  just  what  the  contents  of  that  letter  were,  but  1  under 
stood  that  it  was  notifying  Mr.  Meeker  of  our  coming,  and  expressing 
a  desire  to  hear  from  him.  This  man  delivered  the  letter  at  the  agency, 
and  rejoined  us  on  the  night  of  the  28th,  the  night  before  the  fight,  and 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  177 

I  recollect  tbat  he  brought  back  with  him  a  good  many  stories — we 
could  hear  the  soldiers  talking  about  them  during  the  evening — and  the 
general  impression  from  what  he  said  was,  that  we  were  going  to  have 
a  fight.  I  went  to  him  to  try  to  ascertain  what  foundation  there  was  for 
these  rumors  that  I  had  heard.  He  said,  "  Captain,  there  is  going  to  be 
a  fight."  I  said  I  hoped  not,  and  that  I  did  not  suppose  there  would 
be.  At  this  time  we  were  in  camp  on  a  stream  of  which  I  forget  the 
name,  but  it  was  our  last  camp  before  the  one  at  Milk  Eiver. 

By  Mr.  HOOKER  : 

Q.  Did  that  messenger  bring  a  letter  from  Mr.  Meeker  ? — A.  I  think 
he  did. 

Q.  Did  you  see  it? — A.  No,  sir,  I  think  not;  if  I  did  I  do  not  re 
call  it. 

By  Mr.  POEHLER  : 

Q.  How  far  was  that  camp  from  Milk  River  ? — A.  Eight  or  ten  miles, 
probably  not  more  than  eight,  but  that  is  a  rough  country,  and  it  is  not 
easy  to  estimate  distances  accurately. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  After  this  interview  at  Bear  River  with  Jack,  I  understand  that 
you  had  no  other  interview  with  him  ? — A.  No  other.  Going  back  to 
this  conversation  with  Lowery,  I  asked  him  what  he  based  his  opinion 
upon.  He  said,  '*  Mr.  Meeker  has  told  those  Indians  that  he  is  going  to 
handcuff  them ;  that  he  is  going  to  arrest  them  ;  that  he  has  got  chains 
for  them  ;  and  they  are  moving  their  squaws  and  their  children.  There 
are  hardly  any  of  them  left  there  now;  and  when  I  came  out  here  I 
never  was  so  badly  scared  in  nay  life  as  I  was  during  my  ride  through 
that  canon.  When  I  started  into  the  canon,  there  were  about  twenty 
Indians  with  me,  gesticulating  and  talking  in  a  very  excited  manner, 
and  every  mile  or  two  several  of  them  would  drop  out,  so  that  finally  it 
left  me  alone  without  any  of  them  at  all,  and  I  thought  that  they  were 
getting  around  ahead  of  me  to  cut  me  off  and  kill  me  when  I  was  not 
looking  out."  He  predicted  the  fight  quite  confidently.  At  the  time,  I 
attached  no  importance  at  all  to  his  fears,  for  these  frontier  people  are 
always  expecting  a  fight.  Afterwards,  however,  I  was  satisfied  that  the 
man's  story  was  correct.  He  was  with  the  troops  in  the  fight,  and  did 
very  good  service,  and  was  killed  there.  In  the  conference  at  Bear  Eiver, 
Jack  had  said  something  about  the  threats  that  Mr.  Meeker  had  made, 
but  just  what  I  do  not  remember.  I  only  recollect  that  he  spoke  of  Mr. 
Meeker's  using  threatening  language  to  the  Indians,  and  said  that  upon 
one  occasion  there  had  been  a  difficulty  between  the  agent  and  one  of 
the  chiefs,  and  that  the  chief  had  put  the  agent  out  of  his  house,  or  out 
of  the  agency  building.  I  may  state  also  that  it  was  a  matter  of  com 
mon  rumor  among  the  frontier  men  down  there,  that  a  great  deal  of  this 
trouble  grew  out  of  an  effort  that  was  made  to  arrest  two  Indians, 
"  Chinaman  "  and  "  Bennet,"  on  account  of  certain  depredations  said  to 
have  been  committed  by  them.  I  think  they  had  burned  a  hay-stack 
belonging  to  some  ranchmen,  and  an  effort  had  been  made  to  secure 
their  punishment,  and  the  Indians  were  very  much  excited  about  it. 
About  that  matter,  however,  I  know  nothing"  personally  ;  nothing,  ex 
cept  from  common  rumor,  and  from  some  remarks  that  Jack  made  on 
the  subject.  I  do  not  remember  the  details  of  what  Jack  said,  for  he 
talked  about  pretty  much  everything. 
H.  Mis.  38 12 


178  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

By  Mr.  HOOKER  : 

Q.  But  this  man  Lowery  gave  you  tbe  specific  threats  which  had  been 
made  by  Mr.  Meeker  in  reference  to  handcuffing  and  arresting  the  In 
dians? — A.  Yes,  Lowery  seemed  to  admire  Mr.  Meeker  very  much  ;  he 
said  he  was  a  good,  excellent,  honest  man,  but  a  very  injudicious  one. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Was  Lowery  an  employe  of  the  agency  ? — A.  No,  sir  ;  but  he  had 
been  about  the  agency  a  great  deal,  and  I  think  he  had  at  one  time  been 
an  employe  there.  He  spoke  of  Mr.  Meeker  just  as  all  those  people  did — 
said  that  he  was  injudicious — that  he  was  very  energetic,  earnest,  and 
honest  in  his  work,  and  that  that  sometimes  carried  him  too  far  in  his 
dealings  with  the  Indians. 

Q.  What  were  your  casualties  in  that  fight  ? — A.  We  had  thirteen 
killed  including  Major  Thornburgh. 

Q.  How  many  Indians  were  killed  that  you  saw  ? — A.  I  did  not  stop 
to  count.  I  saw  a  great  many  of  them  killed  on  their  feet;  I  saw  sev 
eral  knocked  oft'  their  ponies,  and  when  an  Indian  falls  he  is  very 'apt 
to  have  received  his  death  wound.  But  we  have  definite  information 
as  to  their  losses  in  the  fight;  they  lost  37  killed;  there  is  no  doubt 
about  that. 

By  Mr.  POEHLER  : 

Q.  How  do  you  get  that  information  ? — A.  That  came  from  the  In 
dians  themselves — from  the  Uiutah  Agency.  General  Hatch  got  it  be 
low,  and  it  came  also  from  Brady,  this  man  who  came  in  with  the  flag 
of  truce,  and  also  from  General  Adams  when  he  came  through  their 
camps  when  they  were  in  mourning.  That  is  the  number  stated  by  the 
Indians,  and  they  never  overstate  their  losses ;  they  are  like  other  peo 
ple  in  that  respect,  they  underestimate  rather  than  overestimate  them. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  massacre  at  the  agency  ? — A. 
Nothing  whatever  excepting  current  reports. 

By  Mr.  HOOKER  : 

Q.  What  was  the  date  of  the  massacre? — A.  The  29th  of  September 
presumably — the  day  that  the  fight  occurred. 

Mr.  HOOKER.  Mr.  Chairman,  hasn't  there  been  some  statement  made 
that  the  massacre  occurred  after  the  tight  ? 

The  CHAIRMAN.  Yes,  sir,  after  the  fight,  but  on  the  same  day. 

By  Mr.  BRRETT  : 

Q.  The  fight  began  in  the  morning? — A.  Yes,  about  11  o'clock. 

Q.  There  is  no  hour  fixed,  I  believe,  as  that  at  which  the  massacre  at 
the  agency  took  place? — A.  The  story  I  have  heard  about  that  is,  that 
when  the  Indians  heard  the  fighting  going  on,  or  when  they  were 
signalled  that  there  was  a  fight  going  on,  they  began  the  massacre ; 
and  I  have  no  doubt  that  that  is  the  truth.  This  letter  which  was 
alleged  to  have  been  written  by  Mr.  Meeker,  and  which  was  said  to  have 
been  found  upon  the  body  of  one  of  the  agency  employes  by  some  of  the 
command  that  went  in  after  we  had  left,  contained  a  somewhat  peculiar 
expression  which  I  remember.  It  was  addressed  to  Major  Thoruburgh, 
and  in  it  Mr.  Meeker  said  :  "  I  like  your  last  programme  best.  Douglass 
is  still  here  flying  the  American  flag."  That  I  think  is  about  the  lan 
guage.  That  letter  purported  to  have  been  written  about  1  o'clock  p.  m. 
It  also  stated,  "very  few  of  tbe  Indians  are  here."  That  statement 
would  seem  to  give  some  air  of  probability  to  the  genuineness  of  the  letter, 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  179 

because  my  impression  from  all  I  could  gather  at  the  time,  and  from  the 
distance  between  Milk  River  and  the  agency,  is  that  it  would  be  perhaps 
about  I  o'clock  in  the  afternoon  before  the  news  of  the  tight  could  have 
got  back  to  the  agency. 

I  forgot  to  state  one  thing  in  regard  to  these  pictures  that  have 
been  spoken  about.  Lowery  or  Rankiu,  I  forget  which,  the  night 
before  the  tight,  gave  rue  the  picture  of  an  Indian,  which  I  put  in  my 
trunk.  My  trunk  was  captured,  with  all  my  baggage,  by  the  Indians, 
as  was  also  Major  Thornburgh's,  Lieutenant  Cherry's,  and  Lieutenant- 
Wolf's.  We  had  all  of  our  property  in  a  light  wagon,  which  followed 
the  column,  and  the  driver  had  to  cut  his  horses  loose  to  save  his  life,  and 
the  wagon  fell  into  the  Indians'  hands.  When  Major  Thornburgh's  body 
was  recovered,  this  picture,  or  at  least  a  picture  which  I  am  satisfied  is 
the  same,  was  found  upon  his  body  held  down  by  a  little  stone  which  had 
been  placed  upon  it  to  prevent  the  wind  from  blowing  it  away.  I  am  satis 
fied,  from  the  examination  I  made  of  the  picture  when  it  was  given  to  me, 
and  the  examination  I  made  of  it  after  it  was  recovered,  that  it  is  the 
same  picture,  and  was  left  on  Major  Thornburgh's  body  under  the  im 
pression  that  it  was  his  property.  [The  witness  exhibited  the  picture 
to  the  members  of  the  committee.)  When  Iguacio's  band  were  coming 
here  the  other  day  I  went  into  the  car  and  shook  hands  with  them  all, 
and  I  suddenly  drew  this  picture  out  of  my  pocket  and  said  "Sabe?" 
One  of  them  said  "Yes,  it  is  Toca,  an  Uncompahgre" ;  but  a  few 
minutes  later  they  denied  it.  I  went  down  to  the  Tremont  House  two  or 
three  days  ago,  and  showed  the  picture  to  some  of  the  Indians  there, 
and  one  of  them  said  it  was  Captain  Billy.  I  don't  know  what  tribe  he 
belongs  to. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Have  you  any  reason  to  believe  that  the  Uncornpahgres  were  in 
the  fight? — A.  None  at  all,  except  the  fact  that  Clique  was  with  this 
party  that  met  us  at  Bear  River. 

Q.  But  he  had  a  pass  "I — A.  He  had  what  purported  to  be  a  pass; 
and  I  will  say  this  for  him,  that  he  kept  aloof  from  the  others  during 
the  conversation,  and  took  no  part  in  it.  The  others  seemed  to  be  lis 
teniug  and  observing  every  tiring  intently,  but  this  fellow  stood  off  alone, 
to  my  left  and  rear,  and  smoked,  and  seemed  to  be  paying  no  attention 
to  what  was  going  on. 

By  Mr.  HOOKER  : 

Q.  Were  any  of  the  Southern  Utes  of  Colorado  in  the  fight? — A.  I  do 
not  know.  My  impression  is  that  there  were  Indians  in  the  fight  that 
did  not  belong  to  the  White  Eiver  Agency ;  but  that  impression  comes 
from  the  fact  that  there  were  more  Indians  there  than  the  reputed  num 
ber  of  warriors  at  the  White  River  Agency. 

Q.  May  not  they  have  come  from  Uintah  Agency  ? — A.  They  may 
have;  and  I  have  heard  that  they  did  come  from  there.  I  have  also 
heard  that  there  were  Shoshones  or  Snakes  and  Arapahoes  in  the  tight, 
but  I  do  not  believe  that. 

Q.  The  chairman  was  about  to  ask  you  a  while  ago  whether,  at  the 
time  when  these  Indians  were  having  the  conference  with  you  at  which 
Jack  spoke,  or  at  any  time  when  the  Indians  were  present,  any  of  your 
soldiers  were  under  the  influence  of  liquor. — A.  There  is  not  one  parti 
cle  of  foundation  for  any  such  statement.  I  have  s«en  that  statement 
in  the  newspapers,  and  I  am  very  glad  that  the  question  has  been  asked 
me.  There  is  not  a  shadow  of  a  foundation  for  it. 

Q.  Is  there  any  truth  in  the  report  that  there  were  two  or  three  bar- 


180  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

rels  of  whisky  found  in  the  camp  which  the  Indians  captured  in  the 
time  of  this  fight? — A.  No,  sir.  The  only  whisky  in  the  command  that 
I  know  of  was  that  contained  in  the  sutler's  wagon.  I  do  not  know 
whether  it  was  in  barrels  or  bottles.  I  know  there  was  some  in  bottles, 
because  during  the  tight,  when  I  got  back  to  the  corral,  there  was  a 
soldier  with  a  bottle  of  whiskey  in  his  hand.  I  went  to  him  at  once, 
took  the  bottle  out  of  his  hand,  broke  it  over  a  wagon  wheel,  went  to 
the  sutlers  wagon  and  put  a  guard  over  it,  and  gave  the  sutler  orders 
not  to  let  any  whisky  go  from  there  except  by  my  order,  or  upon  the 
order  of  the  doctor,  for  the  wounded ;  and  there  was  not  a  case  ot 
drunkenness,  or  of  anything  approaching  to  it,  in  that  command  except 
one,  and  that  a  very  trifling  case,  which  arose  under  very  peculiar  cir 
cumstances,  namely,  that  a  certain  man  took  a  little  too  much  brandy 
just  after  he  had  received  a  painful  wound.  He  was  opening  a  panier 
for  the  benefit  of  the  wounded,  when  be  received  a  very  painful  wound 
just  under  the  neck,  and  without  stopping  his  work  or  doing  anything 
for  the  wound  he  put  a  brandy  bottle  to  his  lips  and  drank  a  little  more 
brandy  than  he  ought  to  have  taken,  and  for  ten  or  fifteen  minutes  he 
was  under  its  influence.  As  this  question  has  been  asked  me,  however, 
I  wish  to  say  that  I  hope  the  committee  will  not  require  me  to  mention 
the  name.  The  services  which  this  man  rendered  in  that  affair  with  the 
Indians  were  so  conspicuous  and  magnificent  that  I  do  not  feel  disposed 
to  mention  his  name,  and  I  do  not  think  the  committee  ought  to  ask  for 
it,  or  that  any  mention  should  be  made  of  the  matter. 
The  CHAIRMAN.  There  was  no  occasion  to  give  the  name. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  You  were  not  wounded  yourself? — A.  Yes,  sir;  I  was  wounded 
twice. 

By  Mr.  POEHLER  : 

Q,  Severely  ? — A.  Not  severely,  but  painfully.  I  had  my  horse  shot 
under  me,  and  I  was  pretty  badly  hurt  by  the  fall,  worse  than  by  my 
wounds.  My  wounds  did  not  trouble  me  until  sometime  afterwards, 
until  the  doctors  got  hold  of  me. 

By  Mr.  HOOKER  : 

Q.  You  did  not  go  to  the  agency  at  all  ? — A.  No,  sir. 

Q.  You  came  back  to  the  railroad  with  your  command  ?— A.  Yes;  the 
original  command  came  back. 

Q.  When  you  speak  of  Colonel  Merritt's  coining  to  your  relief  and 
taking  a  portion  of  his  command  and  going  out  upon  the  mountain  to 
view  the  scene  of  the  fight,  you  say  that  he  was  attacked ;  were  there 
any  losses  sustained  by  his  command  there? — A.  No,  sir.  There  was  a 
horse  shot,  I  think ;  and  I  believe  there  was  a  man  scratched  on  the  arm, 
and  that  was  all. 

Q.  Were  there  any  Indians  killed  there  ? — A.  I  think  not. 

Q.  And  after  that  there  was  no  further  fighting  I — A.  No  further  fight 
ing  until  the  killing  of  Lieutenant  Weir  and  a  guide  who  was  with  him. 
That  occurred,  I  believe,  on  the  20th  of  October. 

Q.  Are  you  familiar  with  the  circumstances  of  that  affair  ? — A.  No, 
sir.  I  think  there  is  but  one  person,  who  is  Lieutenant  Hall,  of  the 
Fifth  Cavalry. 

By  Mr.  POEHLER  : 

Q.  That  was  after  the  troops  got  to  the  White  Eiver  Agency  and 
went  out  again  from  there?— A.  Yes,  sir.  General  Merritt  was  going 
ahead  to  prosecute  this  campaign,  and  he  sent  Lieutenant  Hall  with  a 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  181 

detachment  to  seek  a  practicable  route  for  wagons  to  get  over  the 
mountains.  He  also  sent  a  battalion  of  cavalry  as  an  escort  to  the  party, 
but  in  some  way  they  missed  each  other  at  the  point  of  rendezvous,  and 
Lieutenant  Hall's  party  was  isolated ;  and  while  they  were  out  they  had 
a  fight  with  the  Indians.  In  the  meantime  Lieutenant  Weir  and  Huma, 
General  Merritt's  chief  guide,  were  with  Lieutenant  Hall,  who  had  gone 
off  hunting,  and  they  were  some  little  distance  from  him,  and  tuere 
were  two  separate  and  distinct  fights,  one  with  Lieutenant  Weir's  party, 
in  which  he  and  the  guide  with  him  was  killed,  and  the  other  with  Lieu 
tenant  Hall's  party.  Lieutenant  Hall  had  none  killed,  but  I  believe 
killed  an  Indian,  or  Huma,  his  guide,  killed  one,  as  they  say. 

By  Mr.  HOOKER  : 

Q.  How  long  was  it  after  this  renconter  betwen  General  Merritt  and 
the  force  he  had  on  the  mountains  that  the  troops  arrived  at  the 
agency  ;  what  was  the  earliest  arrival  of  any  of  the  troops  at  the  agency  ? 
— A.  General  Merritt  arrived  at  Milk  River  on  the  morning  of  the  5th, 
and  at  the  agency  on  the  10th.  He  did  not  go  on  at  once  because  his 
command  was  organized  as  a  relief  column  for  us,  and  they  were  push 
ing  through  in  fighting  trim  without  any  supplies. 

Q.  State  at  what  time  the  troops  under  Colonel  Merritt,  after  he  ar 
rived  and  took  command,  were  halted  in  consequence  of  the  efforts  of 
the  Secretary  of  the  Interior,  through  this  commission,  to  effect  a  peace  I 
— A.  That  I  cannot  tell. 

Q.  Were  they  not  halted  for  some  time  ?— A.  I  know  that  General 
Merritt  organized  a  command  from  the  agency,  a  movable  column  of 
cavalry  and  infantry,  and  that  he  started  in  pursuance  of  this  object, 
leaving  the  battalion  of  infantry  at  the  agency  to  guard  the  property 
and  supplies  there ;  and  while  he  was  prosecuting  this  movement  he 
was  recalled  by  orders  from  the  War  Department. 

Q.  At  the  instance  of  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior? — A.  Well,  I  don't 
know,  but  I  presume  so. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Was  there  any  feeling  manifested  between  Jack  and  Major  Thorn- 
burgh  in  their  first  interview  ! — A.  I  don't  think  there  was;  I  did  not 
discover  any  There  was  feeling  on  the  part  of  Jack  towards  all  of  us. 

Q.  But  nothing  occurred  there  in  the  camp  to  produce  that  feeling  ? — 
A.  No,  sir ;  nothing. 

Q.  He  came  there  with  that  feeling  ? — A.  Yes,  sir.  But  Jack  dis 
guised  it  much  more  successfully  than  Colorow  did.  Colorow  was  ag 
gressive  ;  there  was  no  compromise  in  him  at  all. 

Q.  Did  he  make  any  threats  while  he  was  there  ! — A.  No,  sir ;  no 
threats  except  by  his  manner.  He  refused  to  smoke,  and  when  an  In 
dian  refuses  an  invitation  to  smoke  it  means  a  declaration  of  war. 

Q.  Was  there  any  effort  made  to  allay  his  feelings  ? — A.  Yes,  sir  ;  we 
talked  with  the  Indians  and  told  them  that  we  were  going  to  the  agency 
to  straighten  matters  out  and  not  to  tight,  unless  the  Indians  forced  us 
to  it.  Since  you  call  my  attention  to  that  branch  of  the  subject,  I  recol 
lect  distinctly  that  to  one  of  Jack's  questions  about  what  the  soldiers 
were  going  to  do  down  at  the  agency,  Major  Thornburgh  made  some 
such  reply  as  this  :  u  Jack,  you  know  haw  it  is — some  Indians  good, 
some  Indians  bad,  some  white  men  good,  some  white  men  bad ;  we  are 
friends  to  good  Indians,  but  are  not  friends  to  the  bad  Indians."  What 
construction  Jack  put  upon  that  statement  I  don't  know,  but  that  is 
about  the  substance  of  what  Major  Thornburgh  said  to  him,  and  I  think 
I  said  about  the  same  thing  to  him  in  effect.  There  is  another  thing 


182  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

that  I  wish  to  call  attention  to  :  On  the  night  before  the  fight,  when  we 
were  camped  at  Bear  Eiver,  my  courier,  Gordon,  went  out  from  camp  to 
the  ranch  of  a  settler  named  Peck,  a  citizen  of  Colorado,  and  there 
found  some  ten  or  fifteen  thousand  rounds  of  fixed  ammunition,  Win 
chester  cartridges,  and  a  number  of  rifles,  I  think,  and  upon  his  own 
responsibility  he  seized  that  property  and  cached  it.  Peck  was  a  white 
man.  I  am  told  that  he  had  another  ranch  down  near  the  agency  at 
which  ammunition  and  arms  were  sold,  and  1  am  credibly  informed  that 
Mrs.  Peck,  on  the  evening  of  the  day  when  Jack  and  these  other  In 
dians  were  in  our  camp,  sold  to  that  party  of  Indians  some  four  or  five 
thousand  rounds  of  ammunition  while  we  were  camping  within  three 
miles  of  her.  Peck,  fortunately  for  himself,  left  that  country  before  we 
got  back. 

Q.  In  your  journey  up  to  the  reservation,  did  you  see  any  evidences 
of  recent  fires  ? — A.  Yes,  sir ;  constantly,  the  whole  country  was  on  fire. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  after  you  crossed  the  reservation  line? — A.  No, 
sir ;  not  until  after  the  fight.  These  fires  that  I  have  spoken  of  as  hav 
ing  raged  in  Milk  River  bottom  were  on  the  north  side,  and  the  bound 
ary  line  at  that  point  was  on  the  south  side,  but  the  mountains  to  the 
left  of  our  road  all  the  way  down  from  Fortification  Creek — from  Snake 
Eiver  in  fact — were  burning;  the  country  outside  the  reservation,  and 
for  months  as  I  was  informed,  and  for  a  month  as  I  know  myself,  it  was 
the  common  report  through  all  that  country  that  the  mountains  were  on 
fire,  and  the  timber  and  grass  lands  of  Northern  Colorado  were  being 
burned,  and  we  could  see  the  clouds  of  smoke  obscuring  the  heavens 
for  days  at  a  time. 

Q.  Did  Jack  complain  to  you  of  Mr.  Meeker,  because  he  required  him 
or  the  other  Indians  to  work  the  land  or  to  send  their  children  to 
school? — A.  Yes;  he  used  the  term  "  plowing"  and  he  did  complain 
of  that;  it  was  one  of  his  grievances. 

Q.  That  and  the  red-painted  wagon  were  his  principal  grievances, 
were  they? — A.  Yes,  sir;  the  red  painted  wagon  was  the  principal  one. 

By  Mr.  HOOKER: 

Q.  In  connection  with  farming,  did  he  say  anything  about  the  agent 
insisting  upon  breaking  up  their  pasturage  laud,  in  addition  to  that 
which  had  been  already  broken  up? — A.  I  don't  recollect.  He  said 
something  about  one  Indian  being  given  a  piece  of  land,  but  that  was  a 
matter  that  I  could  not  exactly  get  the  drift  of,  his  language  being 
broken.  I  understood  him  to  say  something  about  some  Indian  being 
given  a  piece  of  land  by  the  department  and  that  they  wanted  to  take 
that  laud  away  from  him,  and  had  commenced  to  plow  it,  and  some 
body  had  been  shot  at  while  he  was  plowing;  indeed,  Jack  told  mo 
that  the  man  was  shot  at  to  scare  him;  that  they  did  not  want  to  hurt 
him,  and  I  can  readily  believe  that,  because  if  an  Indian  shoots  at  a 
man  at  a  reasonable  distance,  he  is  a  very  apt  to  hit  him.  They  are 
fine  marksmen.  That  fight  of  ours  was  the  only  occasion  where  I  have 
ever  seen  soldiers  out-shoot  the  Indians;  we  did  out-shoot  them  at  that 
time  and  it  was  the  only  thing  that  saved  us. 


WASHINGTON,  D.  C.,  March  17,  1880. 

OURAY,  a  chief  of  the  Ute  tribe  of  Indians,  appeared  before  the  com 
mittee  and  testified  as  to  the  recent  Ute  outbreak   in  Colorado.     He 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  183 

spoke  in  the  Spanish  language,  and  his  testimony  was  interpreted  by 
Will.  F.  Burns,  a  sworn  interpreter.  Having-  been  sworn  he  testified  as 
follows: 

By  Mr.  HOOKER  : 

Question.  This  committee,  acting  under  instructions  of  the  House  of 
Representatives,  to  inquire  into  the  actual  cause  of  the  outbreak  at  the 
White  River  Agency  among  the  Utes,  want  to  get  at  the  bottom  facts, 
whether  they  implicate  the  white  people  or  the  Indians.  We  are  here, 
as  an  impartial  committee  to  investigate  the  facts,  no  matter  upon  whom 
they  reflect.  If  the  white  people  have  been  the  cause  of  this  difficulty 
we  want  to  know  it;  give  us  all  the  causes, — Answer.  The  first  thing  I 
heard  in  regard  to  these  troubles,  was  that  Jack  (who  is  here  in  the  city 
now),  one  of  the  White  Rivers,  came  to  the  agency  and  wanted  me  to 
write  to  the  department  here  in  regard  to  their  agent.  They  were  not 
well  satisfied  with  him. 

Q.  What  agent? — A.  Mr.  Meeker;  he  said  that  they  were  not  well 
satisfied  with  him  as  an  agent.  Meeker  said  that  the  agent  before  him 
used  to  make  a  good  deal  of  them,  more  than  he  would  make ;  that 
they  were  not  many  and  he  could  not  make  much  out  of  them,  and  they 
would. have  to  do  as  he  said. 

Q.  This  occurred  in  an  interview  between  Jack  and  him  ? — A.  Yes, 
sir. 

Q.  How  long  was  that  before  the  encounter  with  the  troops  and  the 
killing  of  the  people  at  the  White  River  Agency? — A.  It  was  when  Mr. 
Meeker  first  went  there. 

Q.  Relate,  as  briefly  as  you  can,  all  the  facts  within  your  knowledge, 
with  regard  to  the  difficulty  between  the  agent  and  the  Ute  Indians  at 
that  White  River  Agency,  and  about  the  subsequent  killing  of  the  white 
people,  Meeker  and  his  employes,  and  all  you  know  about  the  battle 
between  the  soldiers  and  the  Indians ;  state  all  the  causes  that  led  to  it. 
— A.  It  started  in  that  way,  commencing  when  Meeker  first  came  there. 
Jack,  when  he  came  to  me  with  that  story,  wanted  me  to  write  to  the 
department  and  have  them  send  out  another  agent.  I  went  to  the 
agent  there  at  my  agency,  and  told  him  about  that,  and  wanted  him  to 
write,  but  he  did  not  listen  to  me  and  did  not  write.  Then  Jack  went 
back,  and  afterwards  a  couple  more  of  Indians  came,  I  think  Kaniach 
and  Katosch,  and  told  the  same  story.  I  went  again  to  the  agent,  M. 
J.  Kelley,  to  ask  him  to  write,  but  be  did  not.  This  did  not  happen 
right  along,  but  there  was  quite  a  time  between  the  two  interviews.  I 
heard  things  about  it  between  the  times,  but  not  officially,  not  from  men 
who  came  to  me  in  regard  to  it. 

Q.  When  you  went  to  Kelley  the  second  time,  did  he  write? — A.  He 
did  not.  Then  afterwards  another  party  came  with  the  same  story,  and 
wanted  to  remove  this  agent  and  put  another  agent  there.  I  was  very 
sick  at  the  time,  under  the  care  of  a  doctor,  but  I  went  to  the  agent 
again  and  told  him  about  it,  and  wanted  him  to  write.  He  agreed  to 
write  the  letters  for  me  but  did  not  do  so,  at  least  I  was  never  called  up 
to  certify  to  it.  I  told  the  agent  at  the  time,  "  If  you  do  not  write  and 
have  this  thing  fixed,  there  will  apt  to  be  difficulty  in  regard  to  it,  and 
when  any  difficulty  turns  up  do  not  be  saying  afterwards  that  you  had 
no  notice  of  it ;  that  you  had  no  time  to  prepare  for  it."  Then  Jack  sent 
word  that  he  was  going  to  Denver  to  present  the  business  before  the 
government,  and  have  the  agent  removed.  Jack  and  two  other  Indians 
went  there.  Sahwitz,  one  of  the  Indians  here  now,  went  with  Jack  on 
that  trip.  They  saw  the  houses  on  the  Rio  Urso  or  Bear  Greek,  which 


184  UTE   INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

it  was  claimed  had  been  burned.  Jack,  on  the  trip  to  Denver,  saw 
these  houses  as  they  were  not  burned  ;  the  houses  belonged  to  a  man 
named  Thompson.  The  difficulty  between  Johnson  and  Mr.  Meeker 
before  the  outbreak  was  that  the  Indians  had  marked  out  lauds  for 
building  lauds,  and  that  Meeker  started  in  to  plow  them  up.  Johnson 
told  him  not  to  do  it,  that  they  had  got  it  marked  out  for  building  lots. 
Then  Meeker  got  very  mad  and  told  Johnson  that  he  and  his  son  were 
bad  men,  and  Johnson  asked  him  why.  Johnson  said  to  him,  "  Every 
thing  the  government  has  asked  me  to  do  I  have  done.  I  have  got  a 
house  built  ;  I  am  planting  in  the  ground ;  what  have  I  done  that  is 
bad?"  Then  Johnson  took  hold  of  Meeker  and  said,  "You  had  better 
go  5  you  are  a  bad  man;  not  good  for  an  agent;  you  had  better 
go  and  let  the  Commissioner  send  another  man.  Plenty  of  Americans 
come  out  here,  you  are  not  the  only  one.  They  have  got  plenty 
of  good  men."  Then  Meeker  was  very  mad  and  called  Jack  and  talked 
with  him  in  regard  to  the  matter;  and  Jack  told  him  that  it  was 
nothing  to  make  any  fuss  about;  that  there  was  no  use  writing 
about  it  and  making  any  fuss  about  it;  that  he  had  better  let  it  pass. 
Meeker  told  Jack  it  made  no  difference  what  he  said,  that  he  could  keep 
on  talking,  but  that  he  (Meeker)  would  write,  and  if  he  wrote  it  would 
make  a  difference.  Afterwards  when  troops  started  out  from  the  fort, 
about  the  time  of  the  commencement  of  the  trouble  at  the  agency,  the 
Utes  had  notice  of  it  and  talked  with  Meeker  about  it,  but  Meeker  de 
nied  their  coming  there,  saving  that  they  were  not  coming. 

Q.  Did  Mr.  Meeker  threaten  to  send  for  troops  because  of  the  diffi 
culty  between  Johnson  and  himself  ? — A.  No ;  he  did  not  say  he  was 
going  to  send  for  any  troops  on  that  account,  but  that  he  was  going  to 
write  to  the  department  about  it.  The  Utes  knowing  the  troops  were 
coming  would  go  to  Meeker  and  inquire  about  it,  and  he  always  denied 
it.  The  Utes  got  information  from  the  white  men  that  the  soldiers  were 
going  to  arrest  some  five  or  six  Utes,  but  for  what  reason  they  did  not 
know.  Then  Jack  went  to  the  troops  to  talk  with  the  officers,  and 
told  them  they  had  better  not  go  to  the  agency,  they  had  no  business 
there;  and  that  whatever  the  agent  had  been  writing  in  regard  to  that 
were  lies. 

Q.  Fix  the  time  of  that  conversation  between  Jack  and  the  officers  ; 
how  long  was  it  before  the  killing  and  before  the  battle  f — A.  About 
three  days  before  the  fight.  I  am  not  certain  about  the  time,  but  I 
think  about  three  days — not  more  than  that.  Jack  told  the  officers  that 
it  would  be  better  to  step,  and  only  five  or  six  go  to  the  agency  and 
have  a  talk,  and  the  officers  told  him  that  it  was  a  good  idea.  But  they 
did  not  say  that  they  would  stop.  All  the  time  there  was  couriers  run 
ning  between  the  officers  and  Meeker. 

By  Mr.  GUNTER  : 

Q.  Did  the  officers  tell  him  they  would  stop  as  soon  as  they  came  to 
a  good  camping  place  for  water? — A.  The  officers  did  tell  him  they 
would  stop  in  some  place  on  the  other  side  of  Milk  Eiver,  but  they 
passed  the  place  and  went  to  Milk  Eiver,  and  there  they  fought.  They 
had  agreed  to  stop  before  they  got  there,  but  did  not  stop  and  went  on. 
Jack  then  came  up  towards  the  troops  with  30  or  40  persons  with  him 
and  struck  camp,  and  from  the  appearance,  he  thought  the  soldiers  were 
going  to  camp  on  the  Milk  River.  The  soldiers  did  not  stop  on  the 
Milk  Eiver,  but  kept  right  on,  and  went  into  the  Indian  camp.  The 
Utes  were  camping  on  a  hill,  and  a  road  went  around  the  camp.  They 
were  waiting,  thinking  the  soldiers  would  strike  a  camp  on  the  Milk 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  185 

Eiver;  if  not,  that  they  would  go  down  the  road.  Instead  of  this  the 
soldiers  took  a  small  trail  that  led  up  the  hill  right  into  the  Ute  camp, 
and  that  is  where  they  fought. 

By  Mr.  HOOKER  : 

Q.  Which  party  fired  first,  and  which  brought  on  the  engagement? — 
A.  According  to  what  the  Utes  say  they  both  commenced  about  the 
same  time. 


ByMr.  WHITEAKER: 

Q.  This  is  all  hearsay  on  your  part  ? — A.  Nothing  but  hearsay,  from 
good  men.  I  believe  Jack  did  what  he  could  to  avoid  a  fight.  The 
soldiers  got  off  their  horses  and  formed  in  line  to  advance,  the  Indians 
fell  back  a  little ;  Jack  told  them  not  to  fire. 

By  Mr.  HOOKER  : 

Q.  What  was  the  time  of  this  battle  between  the  troops  and  the  In 
dians,  and  what  the  time  of  the  massacre  of  the  people  of  the  agency  ? 
— A.  When  I  first  heard  of  the  soldiers  coming,  the  agent  told  me.  I 
was  going  out  on  a  hunt ;  when  the  agent  told  me  I  did  not  pay  much 
attention  to  it,  but  went  to  the  Gunnison  to  go  hunting.  When  I  got 
there  I  received  information  from  the  Indians  that  the  troops  were  go 
ing  to  the  White  Kiver  Agency ;  that  the  Indians  did  not  want  them  to, 
but  that  the  troops  were  going.  When  word  came  from  the  White 
Eiver  Agency  that  the  soldiers  were  coming  in  and  that  the  Utes  did 
not  want  them,  two  of  my  captains,  young  men,  started  to  White  Eiver 
to  tell  them  to  let  the  troops  come  in  ;  that  it  made  no  difference.  Two 
men  knowing  my  views  started  out  to  White  Eiver  to  tell  them  not  to 
put  any  obstruction  to  the  troops  coming  in,  and  at  the  same  time  sent 
word  to  me  that  they  had  started  out.  On  the  road  one  of  the  horses 
of  one  of  these  couriers,  or  young  captains,  played  out  and  that  de 
layed  them  some,  and  when  they  got  to  the  White  Eiver  camp,  the  Utes 
had  already  fought  with  the  soldiers.  They  got  to  the  White  Eiver 
carnp  about  9  or  10  o'clock,  and  then  they  started  back. 

By  Mr.  POEHLER  : 

Q.  Was  it  9  o'clock  in  the  morning  or  evening? — A.  About  9  or  10  in 
the  morning,  as  near  as  I  understand. 

By  Mr.  GUNTER  : 

Q.  Was  it  the  day  of  the  fight  that  these  young  men  got  to  the 
agency  ! — A.  I  understand  that  it  was  that  same  morning  that  they 
fought.  No  news  had  come  in  as  yet  about  the  agent  having  been 
killed.  They  only  heard  of  the  fight  with  the  soldiers,  not  of  the  kill 
ing  of  Meeker.  When  those  men  got  back  they  sent  me  word  that  the 
White  Elvers  had  fought  with  the  soldiers  and  1  came  back  to  my  own 
house, 

Q.  Where  is  that? — A.  On  the  Uncornpahgre  Eiver.  When  I  got 
there  those  men  who  had  gone  to  the  White  Eiver  Agency  were  in  my 
house.  They  told  me  this  in  regard  to  the  fighting.  All  my  headmen 
and  captains  were  at  my  house  waiting  for  me,  in  order  to  talk  over  this 
business.  We  were  in  council  that  evening  and  talked  among  ourselves 
about  the  fight  with  the  soldiers — how  it  was  best  to  stop  it.  We  made 
up  our  minds  to  go  to  the  agency  in  the  morning  and  fix  upon  one  white 
man  and  one  Indian  who  should  go  up  there  and  try  to  stop  it.  Just 
about  as  we  got  through  with  our  council — about  10  o'clock  at  night — 


186  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

in  caine  another  Indian  and  took   a  seat  among*  us  and  said,  "  They 
have  killed  the  agent  and  all  the  employes  at  White  River." 

By  Mr.  HOOKER  : 

Q.  Who  was  that  Indian  ? — A.  He  was  an  Uucoinpahgre  Ute  who 
happened  to  be  near  WThite  River  at  the  time — about  60  miles  off. 

Q.  Did  he  profess  to  be  present  at  the  massacre,  and  if  not,  how  did 
he  get  his  information  ? — A.  The  White  Rivers,  who  were  in  favor  of 
peace  and  behaving  themselves  and  talking  well,  sent  couriers  all  over, 
carrying  the  news.  Those  implicated  in  the  business  did  not.  From 
those  couriers,  that  were  running,  this  man  got  his  information. 

Q.  Were  your  Uncompahgre  Utes  engaged  either  in  the  battle  or  in 
the  massacre? — A.  No.  Some  people  were  in  that  trouble  claiming  to 
be  Uncompahgre  Utes,  but  they  were  not ;  they  were  really  White  River 
Utes. 

Q.  State  as  well  as  you  can  from  the  reports  of  captains  and  others 
who  were  the  people  engaged  in  this  massacre. — A.  As  yet  I  know 
nothing  in  regard  to  who  was  there.  They  hide  it  from  me,  claiming 
that  I  am  a  friend  and  aider  of  the  Americans,  and  they  will  not  tell 
me  or  let  me  know  anything. 

Q.  Who  in  point  of  fact  has  been  arrested  and  surrendered  as  impli 
cated  in  that  massacre? — A.  They  have  Douglas,  whom  they  claim  is 
implicated  in  it. 

Q.  Is  he  the  only  one  who  has  been  arrested  ? — A.  He  is  the  only 
one  they  have;  they  claim  that  he  is  implicated  in  it — that  he  may  be 
able  to  give  information  as  to  who  was  in  it. 

Q.  Where  is  he  now  ? — A.  I  do  not  know  ;  the  government  ought  to 
know  where  he  is. 

By  Mr.  POEHLER  : 

Q.  How  many  were  engaged  in  the  massacre  of  Meeker  and  his  em 
ployes? — A.  I  do  not  know. 

By  Mr.  GUNTER  : 

Q.  Who  commanded  the  Utes  in  the  fight  with  the  soldiers? — A.  Jack 
was  there. 

Q.  Was  he  the  commander  of  the  Utes? — A.  He  was  there  to  talk 
with  the  officers. 

Q.  How  many  warriors  had  he  in  the  engagement,  as  nearly  as  you 
can  tell  ? — A.  How  many  does  the  other  evidence  claim  was  there  ? 

Q.  We  want  you  to  tell. — A.  I  do  not  know  how  many  there  were  ; 
there  were  very  few,  as  I  understand  it. 

Q.  Was  there  any  difficulty  between  the  White  River  Indians  and 
Meeker  as  to  what  pasture  lands  should  be  put  into  plow  lands? — A. 
Where  they  used  to  keep  their  milk-cows  he  wanted  to  plow  up. 

Q.  Did  the  Indians  say  that  he  could  take  their  other  lands,  but 
leave  those  alone ;  that  those  were  pasturage  ? — A.  Douglas  told  him 
that. 

By  Mr.  DEERING  : 

Q.  Was  there  any  cause  of  grievance  before  that  ?  Were  the  Indians 
satisfied  up  to  the  time  he  commenced  plowing? — A.  They  had  trouble 
with  him  all  the  time  in  regard  to  the  rations  and  other  things,  but  put 
up  with  it  before  that. 

Q.  Was  there  any  dissatisfaction  with  the  government  or  our  people 
generally,  or  did  the  cause  of  complaint  originate  then? — A.  I  do  not 
know  of  any  trouble  they  ever  had  with  the  government.  I  never  heard 
of  any. 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  187 

WASHINGTON,  D.  0., 

March  18,  1880. 

OUR  AY  appeared  before  the  committee,  and  continued  his  testimony 
through  the  medium  of  an  interpreter,  as  follows: 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  What  excuse  or  justification  is  given  by  the  White  River 
Utes  for  the  massacre  of  the  agency  ? — Answer.  I  think  that  Meeker 
wanted  all  the  time  to  get  them  out  of  the  land — wanted  to  make 
some  row  in  order  to  get  them  off  the  land.  That  is  the  way  it  seems  to 
me. 

Q.  Is  that  the  reason  that  Meeker  was  slain  ? — A.  The  idea  was  that 
when  the  Utes  fought  the  soldiers  and  some  Indians  were  killed,  they 
believed  that  Meeker  was  to  blame  for  calling  the  soldiers — that  he  was 
in  fault  for  getting  the  soldiers  there  and  having  any  fight;  and  for 
that  reason  and  others  they  killed  him. 

Q.  Were  the  Indians  in  the  fight  those  who  committed  the  massacre? 
— A.  As  near  as  I  understand  it  a  part  of  them  were.  A  brother  of 
Johnson,  who  was  in  that  fight,  left  there  and  went  back  ana  massacred 
Meeker.  That  is  what  this  brother  of  Johnson  said  while  he  was  still 
alive.  He  died  a  few  days  afterwards.  That  is  all  I  know  as  to  who 
was  there. 

Q.  Was  the  property  at  the  agency  after  the  massacre  stolen  or  de 
stroyed? — A.  I  understand  that  part  of  it  they  took  with  them  ;  but  most 
of  it  was  destroyed.  Blankets  and  one  thing  and  another  they  took. 

Q.  Do  you  know  in  whose  possession  any  of  this  property  is  now  ? — 
A.  No ;  all  I  know  about  it  is  what  some  women  said.  I  did  not  hear 
anything  about  it  from  any  of  the  men. 

Q.  Do  you  understand  the  provisions  of  the  late  contract  made  be 
tween  you  and  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior;  are  you  perfectly  satisfied 
with  it,  and  are  your  people  perfectly  satisfied  with  it! — A.  I  did  not 
come  here  to  make  any  treaty ;  all  I  came  here  for  was  to  settle 
up  this  White  River  business  and  represent  my  people,  and  try  to  settle 
the  thing  peaceably;  but  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior  wanted  to  make 
this  treaty,  and  we  have  fixed  up  a  treaty  in  this  way.  Now,  1  will  go 
back  and  see  what  my  people  think  of  it. 

Q.  Are  you  entirely  satisfied  with  it  yourself? — A.  I  am  not  so  very 
well  pleased  with  it  myself  as  I  might  be,  but  if  my  people  want  it  I 
will  be  satisfied  with  it.  I  have  a  very  nice  ranche,  and  have  settled 
down  and  do  not  care  to  move ;  but  if  the  government  pays  me  for  the 
ranche,  and  the  people  want  to  move  and  sell  the  land,  as  the  treaty 
calls  for,  I  will  be  satisfied. 

Q.  If  there  had  been  no  difficulty,  would  you  have  been  willing  to 
sign  the  treaty  ? — A.  That  would  not  make  any  difference  ;  having  sat- 
fied  my  people  I  would  be  satisfied. 
By  Mr.  WADDILL  : 

Q,  In  the  twelve  million  acres  of  land  in  the  Ute  Reservation  in  Colo 
rado,  is  there  not  plenty  of  agricultural  lands  for  your  people  without 
going  to  Utah  ? — A.  There  are  a  good  many  Utes,  and  I  think  it  neces 
sary  to  go  to  Utah  in  order  to  get  sufficient  laud.  They  are  scattered 
now  all  along  the  Uncompahgre  and  the  G-unnison  clear  into  Utah. 
I  do  not  think  there  is  sufficient  agricultural  lands  in  Colorado  in  the 
reservation  to  supply  them. 

Q.  How  many  Utes  are  there  ? — A.  I  think  something  over  3,000. 
All  the  White  River  Utes  are  off  towards  Utah  now.  Not  one  of  them 
is  near  his  agency. 


188  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

Q.  Do  they  prefer  going  into  Utah  ? — A.  I  think  that  some  of  them 
would  prefer  going  there,  but  I  am  not  sure  about  it,  as  I  have  yet  to 
talk  with  my  people  and  find  out  what  they  think.  I  have  got  a  very 
nice  ranch,  and  have  been  to  a  good  deal  of  trouble  and  expense.  I  am 
not  well  satisfied  to  leave  it ;  but  if  my  people  feel  satisfied  to  go  down 
on  other  lands,  I  will  go  too. 

Q.  Do  you  think  it  will  suit  your  people  ? — A.  There  will  always  be 
difficulty  to  persuade  some  of  them  to  go.  Very  many  are  opposed  to 
moving — to  leaving  their  present  lauds.  But  I  think  it  may  be  explained 
in  such  a  way  that,  if  it  is  not  pushed  upon  them  that  all  must  move 
from  Colorado,  that  they  will  accept.  It  would  be  but  moving  upon  the 
border,  and  a  greater  part  would  be  in  Colorado. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  If  lots  of  land  are  distributed  in  severally,  as  the  agreement  calls 
for,  will  your  people  settle  down  there  and  cultivate  them  $ — A.  It  is  not 
likely  that  all  of  them  will  want  to  go  right  to  work  farming.  A  large 
portion  of  them  will.  They  have  wanted  to  do  so  where  they  are  now. 

Q.  Is  there  not  some  danger  of  their  being  defrauded  out  of  the  land 
by  the  white  people  ?  Will  they  not  sell  the  lands  to  the  white  people  ? 
— A.  I  do  not  think  that  if  they  were  at  liberty  to  do  so  they  would  do 
so  ;  but  it  is  in  the  patent  that  they  cannot  sell  for  25  years.  After  a 
number  of  years,  when  they  become  somewhat  civilized,  they  may  want 
to  sell  their  lands. 

By  Mr.  GUNTER  : 

Q.  How  long  was  it  after  Meeker  reached  the  agency  before  Jack  went 
to  you  and  complained  of  Meeker's  conduct  ? — A.  I  am  not  certain  as  to 
the  time  Meeker  went  there  ;  but  Jack  came  to  see  me  about  a  year  ago 
last  fall,  when  General  Hatch  was  making  treaties  with  the  Southern 
Utes. 

Q.  What  had  Meeker  said  or  done  that  caused  Jack  to  complain  of 
him  at  that  time? — A.  I  gave  my  reasons  pretty  much  yesterday  as  to 
what  Jack  complained  of,  and  another  was  that  they  had  very  hard 
work  to  get  rations.  He  would  not  give  rations  to  some  of  the  Utes 
who  belonged  there.  If  any  other  Utes — the  Uncompahgre,  for  instance 
— came  there  on  a  visit  he  would  never  give  them  anything  to  eat.  It 
is  the  custom  at  agencies,  when  Indians  are  visiting  another  tribe,  to 
have  them  go  to  the  agency  and  get  provisions.  He  had  a  list  made 
out  of  the  Indians  which  he  thought  belonged  to  the  agency,  and  he 
would  set  them  down  in  a  circle  to  receive  rations.  As  he  went  around 
giving  out  the  rations,  if  he  saw  a  person  whom  he  thought  was  a 
stranger,  and  whose  name  was  not  on  that  list,  he  would  not  issue  any 
rations  to  him.  Chipetah  (Ouray's  wife)  says  that  once  when  she  was 
there  she  noticed  that  they  did  not  get  anything  from  the  agency,  but 
were  buying  provisions  from  a  store  on  Bear  River. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  parties  of  whites  hunting  minerals  or  pros 
pecting  on  the  reservation  at  any  time,  and,  if  so,  when  ? — A.  I  have 
not  seen  any.  nor  do  I  know  of  any  hunting  minerals.  I  have  seen  men 
coming  and  going  about,  traveling  on  the  roads,  but  I  do  not  know  that 
they  were  hunting  minerals. 

Q.  Have  you  heard  any  complaints  from  your  people  that  the  whites 
were  hunting  mineral  lands? — A.  I  never  heard  any  of  them  complain 
of  anything  of  the  kind.  I  have  heard  them  say  that  they  had  seen  men 
on  the  mountains. 

Q.  Were  they  traveling  or  in  camp  !— A.  They  would  see  them  trav- 


UfE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  189 

eling  mostly,  but  sometimes  they  would  be  in  camp.    1  do  not  know 
whether  the  camp  was  permanent  or  not. 

Q.  Do  you  know  of  any  whites  taking  stock  on  any  portion  of  the 
reservation  ?— A.  I  have  heard  that  there  were  some  herds  pasturing 
on  the  Gunnisou  Eiver,  and  up  around  Savoje  Creek. 

Q.  What  part  of  the  reservation  is  that? — A.  The  upper  part. 

Q.  Were  tiie  herds  large  herds? — A.  I  understand  that  there  were 
large  herds  there,  and  that  some  men  had  put  up  fences  and  gone  to 
plowing. 

Q.  How  long  had  these  herds  been  there? — A.  Three  or  four  years. 

Q.  Are  they  still  on  the  reservation  ? — A.  I  understand  they  are. 

Q.  Have  your  people  manifested  any  dissatisfaction  about  those 
herds  and  about  the  whites  being  on  your  reservation  ? — A.  They  did 
not  complain.  They  looked  upon  it  as  the  business  of  the  government 
to  fix  that,  and  they  let  it  go. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  in  regard  to  your  people  burning  houses 
and  forests  in  Colorado  ;  if  so,  to  what  extent  ? — A.  I  have  heard  noth 
ing  about  it  except  what  I  have  seen  in  the  papers.  Wrhen  I  came  to 
examine  them  I  could  not  find  that  they  had  burned  any  cabins  or  for 
ests.  Last  year  was  a  very  dry  year.  Where  there  had  been  a  camp 
over  night  and  a  little  fire  was  left,  in  the  morning  a  wind  might  come 
up  and  scatter  it  and  set  fire  to  the  place,  and  the  whole  country  would 
burn  up  in  that  way.  I  do  not  think  anyone  was  to  blame — miners, 
campers,  or  anyone  else.  It  was  so  dry  that  there  was  no  grass. 
Everything  was  dry  and  dead,  so  that  it  was  easy  for  everything  to 
catch  fire. 

Q.  Do  your  people  lay  claim  to  that  portion  of  Colorado  known  a 
the  mineral  or  northern  part? — A.  No. 

Q.  Have  your  people  ever  expressed  any  dissatisfaction  to  you  on 
account  of  the  whites  settling  on  that  part  ? — A,  No.  Last  summer, 
when  some  Utes  were  there  hunting,  an  order  came  to  them  that  the 
whites  did  not  want  them  there,  and  Douglas  went  and  brought  them 
back. 

Q.  How  many  cattle  or  stock  ranches  do  you  know  of  being  on  this 
reservation  ? — A.  There  is  one  toll-gate  house  there,  and  they  have  put 
up  large  fences,  and  fenced  a  large  piece  of  ground.  On  Indian  Creek 
there  is  a  stopping  place — called  a  mail  post.  That  does  not  make  any 
difference;  but  there  are  other  men  right  there  cultivating  the  ground. 
On  Savage  Creek  there  is  another  mail  post,  and  there  are  more  men 
there  planting. 

By  Mr.  WHITEAKER  : 

Q.  Up  to  the  time  of  Meeker's  becoming  agent,  had  the  Utes  been  on 
good  terms  with  the  whites  ? — A.  I  had  not  heard  of  any  trouble  be 
tween  the  whites  and  the  Indians,  or  any  dissatisfaction  until  Meeker 
came  there. 

Q.  What  do  you  know  of  any  murders  of  white  men  by  Indians  before 
the  arrival  of  Meeker  as  agent? — A.  I  do  not  know  of  any  white  men 
being  killed  by  the  Utes  before  Meeker  came  there,  except,  I  believe,  at 
the  time  Meeker  was  there  a  cousin  of  mine  was  killed  by  a  white  man, 
and  the  Utes  killed  a  white  man.  We  had  a  council  with  General  Hatch 
and  had  the  thing  settled. 

Q.  Did  the  whites,  before  or  after  Meeker  became  agent,  trespass  on 
the  reservation,  or  in  any  way  take  advantage  of  the  Indians,  or  were 
they  friendly  and  on  good  terms? — A.  They  never  had  any  particular 
trouble  or  quarrel.  They  would  sometimes  argue  about  the  lines  of  the 


190  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

reservation,  and  pretty  nearly  every  summer  some  surveyor  would  be 
sent  out  to  survey  the  line  over  again,  and,  as  a  general  thing,  he  made 
it  smaller  than  before. 

Q.  And  the  government,  up  to  the  time  of  Meeker's  arrival,  kept  good 
faith  with  the  Indians  in  all  things  ? — A.  So  far  as  I  know,  the  govern 
ment  kept  faith  with  the  Utes  before  that  time.  There  would  be  some 
trespassers  in  the  reservation,  and  the  government  would  send  out 
troops.  They  would  go  out  and  make  a  lot  of  noise,  and  go  back.  I 
do  not  know  what  kind  of  a  report  they  would  make,  but  they  would 
not  get  the  trespassers  off.  The  trespassers  would  be  there  when  the 
troops  left,  and  they  are  still. 

fey  Mr.  DEERING  : 

Q.  Were  the  White  River  people  opposed,  when  Meeker  went  there, 
to  having  their  lands  plowed  and  cultivated  ? — A.  No. 

Q.  Then  this  trouble  occurred  when  Meeker  undertook  to  plow  ;  not 
from  the  fact  that  they  were  opposed  to  plowing  the  land,  but  on  ac 
count  of  the  manner  and  place  of  doing  so  ? — A.  Not  on  account  of  his 
plowing,  but  because  he  wanted  to  plow  on  particular  places  which  they 
had  picked  out  for  building  lots. 

Q.  Js  it  .your  opinion  that  there  would  have  been  trouble  or  a  fight  if 
Meeker  had  been  sent  away,  and  another  agent  appointed  when  they 
asked  it,  and  when  Jack  was  sent  to  Denver  to  see  the  government? — 
A.  I  think  if  they  had  removed  Meeker  that  there  would  have  been  no 
trouble,  and  if  they  had  not  sent  soldiers  in  there. 

Q.  Why  were  they  opposed  to  soldiers  coming  in  there  ? — A.  Their 
objection  was  because  they  had  heard  that  the  soldiers  were  going  to 
arrest  some  of  them,  and  were  going  to  do  it  at  the  time  they  were  re 
ceiving  annuity  goods,  and  the  Indians  were  scared  about  it.  And  for 
that  reason  Jack  told  the  officer  that  five  or  six  of  them  had  better  go 
on  and  investigate  the  business,  because  the  Indians  were  scared  that 
they  were  going  to  try  to  catch  them  when  they  were  receiving  their 
annuity  goods. 

Q.  Did  you  hear,  or  had  you  reason  to  believe,  that  before  that  time 
Meeker  had  threatened  to  arrest  or  put  handcuffs  or  chains  upon  some 
of  them  ? — A.  I  did  not  hear  anything  certain,  before  the  massacre, 
about  Meeker's  going  to  arrest  anybody,  but  I  heard  that  he  was  going 
to  do  so  ;  but  not  on  good  evidence.  It  was  just  a  flying  report  that  I 
heard.  But  I  had  further  evidence  in  the  examination  and  investiga 
tion  before  the  commissioners  that  went  out  there,  Generals  Hatch  and 
Adams. 

Q.  There  was  a  current  belief  among  the  Indians,  before  the  trouble, 
that  Meeker  was  going  to  have  the  soldiers  come  in  and  inflict  some 
punishment  ? — A.  That  was  the  belief  among  them.  They  believed  that 
that  was  what  he  was  going  to  get  the  soldiers  in  for. 

By  Mr.  HOOKER  : 

Q.  You  said  yesterday  in  your  examination  that  Johnson  and  his  son 
had  some  difficulty  with  Meeker,  and  that  Meeker  had  said  they  were 
bad  men.  Did  Meeker  then  send  for  troops,  or  have  you  any  knowledge 
of  the  fact,  and  how  long  was  this  before  the  massacre  and  the  battle 
with  Thoruburgh's  troops? — A.  I  heard  of  this  trouble  between  John 
son  and  Meeker  about  two  weeks  after  it  happened  ;  and  after  that  I 
understood  that  the  soldiers  were  coming  in. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whether  Meeker,  the  White  Eiver  agent,  made  any 
representations  to  the  government  upon  which  the  troops  were  sent 


UTE    INLIAN    OUTBREAK.  191 

there;  and,  if  so,  what"?— A.  I  knew,  from  reading  in  the  papers,  that 
Meeker  had  sent  for  troops,  and  that  they  were  going  oat  there. 

Q.  How  long  did  the  difficulty  between  Jack  and  Meeker  occur  be 
fore  the  fight  and  the  massacre? — A.  It  may  have  been  three  or  four 
weeks  :  I  do  not  know  the  exact  time. 

Q.  Are  you  conscious  of  the  fact  that  it  requires,  in  order  to  consum 
mate  the  agreement  you  have  signed,  the  assent  of  three-fourths  of  the 
adult  males  of  your 'people?— A.  I  know  that  it  will  take  that  many, 
and  I  want  to  get  back  and  see  about  it. 

Q.  Has  this  agreement  to  sell  your  lands  and  have  your  people  re 
moved  been  entered  into  freely  and  voluntarily  by  yourself  and  the 
chiefs  here  with  you  ;  and  is  it  a  favorable  arrangement  for  you  to  make 
in  regard  to  the  disposal  of  those  lands,  and  settlement  on  others? — A. 
It  seems  to  me  the  best  thing  we  can  do  in  order  to  maintain  peace  with 
the  whites. 

Adjourned  until  to-morrow. 


WASHINGTON,  March  19,  1880. 

CHIPITA,  wife  of  Ouray,  speaking  through  an  interpreter,  testified  as 
follows : 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  How  far  from  the  agency  where  Mr.  Meeker  was  agent  were 
you  at  the  time  the  massacre  took  place  ? — Answer.  I  do  not  know  the 
exact  time  when  the  massacre  occurred,  and  do  not  know  where  I  was. 

Q.  State  all  you  know  about  that  difficulty  between  the  Utes  and  the 
whites,  the  battle  and  the  massacre  ? — A.  I  know  nothing  about  it. 

Q.  Were  you  at  home  when  the  Meeker  women  came  there  ?  If  so, 
who  brought  them  there,  and  what  was  their  condition  when  they  ar 
rived? — A.  I  was  at  my  house  when  they  came  there;  General  Adams 
came  with  them. 

Q.  What  condition  were  they  in  when  they  came,  and  what  repre 
sentations  did  they  make  at  that  time  about  the  massacre  ? — A.  They 
seemed  to  be  all  right,  but  did  not  talk  with  me. 

Q.  What  reasons  did  the  Indians  give  for  committing  this  massacre 
at  the  agency? — A.  I  do  not  know  what  reason  they  give. 

Q.  Did  they  say  that  Mr.  Meeker  was  a  bad  man  ? — A.  I  heard  some 
of  them  say  that  he  was  a  bad  man. 

Q.  In  what  respect  did  they  say  he  was  bad  ? — A.  They  said  he  was 
a  bad  man,  that  he  talked  bad. 

Q.  Did  they  say  that  he  did  anything  bad  ? — A.  Some  of  them  claimed 
that  he  was  always  writing  to  Washington  and  giving  his  side  of  the 
case,  and  all  the  troubles  at  the  agency. 

Q.  Is  that  what  they  killed  him  for  ?— A.  I  do  not  know  whether  that 
is  what  they  killed  him  for,  or  what  they  did  it  for.  I  know  nothing 
personally  about  it  except  what  I  have  heard  talked  among  the  women. 

Q.  Tell  us  what  you  heard  on  that  subject— all  you  heard  ? — A.  I  have 
already  stated  about  all  I  heard. 


WASHINGTON,  March  19,  1880. 

JACK,  a  Ute  chief,  speaking  through  two  interpreters,  testified  as  fol 
lows  : 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 
Question.  We  have  heard  the  white  men's  story  about  the  recent 


192  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

troubles  with  the  Ute  tribe  ;  we  now  wish  to  hear  the  Indian  side  of  the 
question  ;  therefore,  please  state  all  you  know  about  it. 

[The  witness  inade  no  response,  and  the  interpreter  suggested  that 
the  best  course  would  be  to  question  him.] 

Q.  Were  you  in  the  Thoruburgh  fight! — A.  I  went  to  meet  the  sol 
diers  and  told  them  they  had  better  not  go  to  the  agency,  but  had  better 
go  back. 

Q.  How  long  was  that  before  the  fight  ? — A.  Three  days. 

Q.  What  did  the  soldiers  say  ?— A.  They  told  me  that  they  would  not 
go  back,  that  they  had  orders  to  go  on. 

Q.  What  did  you  say  to  them  ? — A,  I  asked  them  why  they  received 
such  an  order  and  what  they  were  going  to  do  with  the  Indians.  They 
replied  that  they  heard  that  the  forests  on  the  mountains  were  all  burn 
ing  up,  and  for  that  reason  they  came  out  there. 

Q.  What  did  you  do  then  ?— A.  I  told  them  that  I  did  not  think  the 
Utes  burned  them  ;  that  probably  miners  or  prospectors  left  fires  behind 
them  which  spread  to  the  forests. 

Q.  Who  said  that  the  Utes  were  burning  up  the  forests  ! — A.  The 
soldiers  said  so,  and  that  that  was  the  reason  they  were  coming. 

Q.  Did  they  say  anything  about  Mr.  Meeker  having  sent  for  them? — 
A.  Yes;  they  said  that  Mr.  Meeker  had  called  for  them. 

Q.  Did  you  tell  the  soldiers  that  they  must  not  go  to  the  agency? — 
A.  I  did. 

Q.  Where  were  the  men  of  your  tribe,  and  how  many  had  you  with 
you  at  the  time  you  were  at  the  soldiers'  camp  ? — A.  There  were  five  of 
our  people  who  went  to  the  camp.  The  remainder  of  our  people  were 
some  distance  off;  I  do  not  know  how  many  miles. 

Q.  How  many  men  had  you  and  how  far  away  were  they  at  the  time  you 
went  to  the  soldiers'  camp  three  days  before  the  fight  and  saw  Major 
Thornburgh?  How  long  before  the  fight  took  place  did  you  get  your 
men  together  with  their  guns  for  the  fight  ? — A.  I  never  got  them  to 
gether  to  fight. 

[Here  the  Chairman,  through  the  interpreter,  told  the  witness  that 
the  committee  did  not  wish  to  take  any  advantage  of  him,  and  that  he 
must  answer  freely. 

Q.  Who  began  that  fight  ?— A.  The  soldiers  fired  first. 

Q.  How  many  of  your  people  were  in  the  fight? — A.  About  fifty. 

Q.  How  many  Indians  were  there  altogether  f  How  many  were  there 
that  did  not  fight? — A.  I  did  not  see  all  that  were  around,  and  I  could 
not  tell  how  many  there  were. 

Q.  Where  did  the  fight  take  place?— A.  At  what  is  called  Milk 
Creek. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  white  men— any  of  the  soldiers— making  friendly 
gestures  or  signals,  trying  to  give  the  Indians  to  understand  that  there 
was  to  be  no  fight  ? — A.  I  did  not  see  any  signal  of  that  kind. 

Q.  If  the  Indians  did  not  go  to  Milk  Creek  for  the  purpose  fighting, 
what  did  they  go  there  for  ? — A.  That  is  where  I  was  living  at  the  time; 
where  I  was  camped. 

By  Mr.  POEHLER  : 

Q.  Were  your  wife  and  children  at  Milk  Creek  with  you  ?— A.  My 
wife  and  children  were  there  when  the  soldiers  were  coining  up,  but 
when  the  soldiers  came  nearer  the  women  and  children  packed  up  and 
left. 

Q.  What  made  them  go  away  ?— A.  When  they  knew  the  soldiers 
were  coming  they  got  afraid  and  thought  it  best  to  leave. 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  193 

Q.  Did  the  fight  occur  on  the  Ute  Reservation  1 — A.  I  think  it  was 
about  on  the  line. 

Q.  Why  didn't  you  stop  the  soldiers  before  they  got  to  the  reserva 
tion  line  '? — A.  I  was  not  trying  to  stop  them  at  all  by  fighting  ;  I  tried 
to  stop  them  by  talking,  but  in  no  other  way. 
By  Mr.  HASKELL  : 

Q.  How  many  Utes  were  killed  in  the  fight? — A.  There  were  twenty- 
seven  killed. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  flow  many  whites  ? — A.  I  do  not  know. 

Q.  Who  commanded  the  Indians  in  that  tight? — A.  There  was  no 
particular  chief  in  charge  during  the  fight.  It  came  on  suddenly. 

Q,  Were  you  there  ? — A.  I  met  the  soldiers  at  Bear  River.  I  said, 
"  What  is  the  matter  ?  What  are  you  coming  for  ?  We  do  not  want  to 
fight  with  the  soldiers.  We  have  the  same  father  over  us.  We  do  not 
want  to  fight  with  them."  The  soldiers  had  letters  or  couriers  passing 
between  them  and  Mr.  Meeker  at  this  time,  and  they  said  that  they  had 
got  a  telegraph  from  the  Commissioner  to  go  to  the  agency,  and  for  that 
reason  they  were  going  ;  that  the  Indians  were  burning  up  the  forests 
around  there  and  had  burned  Mr.  Thompson's  cabin.  I  told  them  it  was 
a  lie ;  that  the  Indians  had  not  burned  up  the  Thompson  cabin,  but 
probably  miners  had  been  looking  for  gold  lower  down  and  made  a  fire 
and  went  to  sleep  and  the  whole  thing  took  tire ;  or  else  they  left  the 
fires  there  and  the  fires  spread  after  they  went  away. 

Q.  Tell  all  about  it. — A.  I  told  the  officers,  u  You  leave  your  soldiers 
here;  I  am  a  good  man;  lam  4Jack7;  leave  your  soldiers  here,  and 
we  will  go  down  to  the  agency."  I  told  the  soldiers  that  I  did  not  want 
to  fight  with  them;  that  they  had  better  camp  there  and  not  go  down. 
They  said  they  would  go  to  White  River  to  catch  bad  Indians — that 
they  would  all  go  to  White  River  and  catch  some  bad  Utes  and  take 
them  back  home  with  them.  They  said  some  of  the  Utes  were  not  good 
men  and  they  wanted  to  catch  them.  I  told  them  that  that  was  not 
good;  that  we  did  not  want  to  fight;  and,  as  I  said  before,  that  the 
soldiers  were  my  brothers ;  that  some  of  the  soldiers  were  brothers,  some 
nephews,  some  cousins  of  mine.  I  talked,  but  the  soldiers  did  not  seem 
to  understand,  and  I  went  back  home  and  had  no  more  talk. 
By  Mr.  POEHLER  : 

Q.  Did  the  soldiers  agree  to  stop  at  any  point? — A.  They  said,  u  No 
stop." 

Q.  What  happened  after  you  went  home  ? — A.  I  went  back  home  to 
camp  and  did  not  see  them. 

Q.  Didn't  you  see  them  in  the  fight? — A.  No;  I  did  not  see  them  fight. 

Q.  Were  you  not  in  the  fight  at  Milk  Creek  ? — A.  I  did  not  see  them 
again  until  a  white  man  came  from  the  Uncompahgre  Agency  with  a 
white  flag  and  I  went  with  them. 

Q.  Then  you  did  not  see  the  fight  ? — A.  No. 

Q.  Where  were  you  then  ? — A.  At  camp. 

Q.  When  did  you  next  see  the  soldiers? — A.  I  did  not  see  them. 

Q.  When  did  you  last  see  Mr.  Meeker? — A.  I  did  not  see  him. 

Q.  How  far  is  your  home  from  the  agency  at  which  Mr.  Meeker  was  ? 
— A.  I  camped  at  White  River  at  the  old  agency.  I  do  not  know  how 
far  ;  I  can  go  in. 

Q.  When  was  the  last  time  before  the  fight  that  you  saw  Mr.  Meeker  ? 
— A.  Three  days. 

Adjourned. 

H.  Mis.  38 13 


194  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

WASHINGTON,  March  20,  1880. 

JACK,  a  chief  of  the  Utes,  was  recalled  and  further  examined 
(through  Ouray  and  another  interpreter),  as  follows: 

The  CHAIRMAN.  I  have  learned  that,  misunderstanding  the  questions 
put  to  you,  you  made  a  wrong,  statement  yesttrday,  and  I  wish  to  give 
you  an  opportunity  to  correct  it  this  morning.  Go  on  now  and  tell  all  you 
know  about  that  fight  from  the  beginning  to  the  end. 

The  WITNESS.  I  fell  into  that  mistake  on  account  of  the  interpreter. 
He  was  not  getting  it  correct,  and  I  thought  I  would  get  into  trouble 
in  that  way. 

Question.  You  may  correct  anything  that  you  said  wrong  yesterday. 
Will  you  now  go  on  and  tell  us  the  whole  story  without  any  further  ques 
tions  ? — Answer.  I  first  started  out  to  go  up  to  Bear  Creek  to  the  store  of  a 
man  named  Baker.  While  I  was  in  Baker's  house  1  heard  some  shots 
up  the  road,  and  a  little  while  after  along  came  a  soldier,  and  a  police 
man  (a  sheriff).  Baker's  wife  went  outside  and  saw  this  soldier  and  the 
other  man  coming,  and  came  back  into  her  house  and  seemed  scared, 
and  said  to  me,  uGo  inside";  meaning  into  some  other  apartment.  I 
didn't  know  what  she  meant  by  it,  but  she  seemed  to  be  afraid.  When 
the  soldier  and  the  man  came  up  to  the  house  and  saw  the  woman  they 
asked  her  why  she  was  afraid;  they  said,  "Don't  be  afraid;  we  are 
just  out  on  a  hunting  expedition."  The  soldier  and  the  sheriff  I  knew; 
I  had  seen  the  soldier  at  the  agency  of  the  Shoshones.  I  got  talking 
with  the  soldier,  and  he  said  to  me,  "  Why  don't  you  come  up  to  my 
camp?"  I  said  "Where  is  your  camp?"  The  soldier  said,  "It  is 
above  here  about  two  miles."  I  went  up  with  the  soldier  to  the  camp. 
I  found  them  encamped  at  the  bend  of  the  creek.  I  thought  before  I 
went  up  there^that  there  were  only  a  few,  but  when  I  got  there  I  found 
that  there  wei*e  a  great  many.  As  I  was  getting  into  the  camp  I  met 
some  soldiers  fishing  in  the  creek,  and  they  called  to  me  by  name, 
"Jack!"  The  soldier  and  I  went  up  to  a  large  tent,  and  the  soldier 
got  off  his  horse  in  front  of  the  tent.  There  were  a  good  many  men 
inside.  I  spoke  to  the  officer  and  men,  and  shook  hands  with  them  and 
said,  ",  What  is  the  matter?  What  is  up  ?"  Seeing  so  many  soldiers  I 
did  not  understand.  I  asked  one  of  the  officers,  "  What  is  up  ?  What 
are  you  going  to  do?"  And  the  officer  said,  "  We  are  traveling."  I 
asked  him  what  he  was  traveling  for — what  business  he  was  on.  He 
said  that  he  had  started  out  from  Fort  Steele.  I  asked  him  again, 
"What  are  you  marching  for?"  The  officer  said,  "We  have  a  notice 
from  your  agent,  and  for  that  reason  we  are  coming."  The  officer  said 
that  they  had  received  notices  for  a  long  time  that  the  White  Kivers 
were  abusing  their  agent,  and  that  he  had  received  an  order  from  the 
department  to  go  there ;  that  he  had  received  one  order  from  the  de 
partment  and  did  not  go,  but  the  second  time  he  received  the  order  he 
began  to  march.  I  told  the  officer  that  it  was  a  lie  that  we  had  been 
mistreating  the  agent,  but  the  officer  said  that  didn'fc  make  any  differ 
ence,  that  he  had  to  go  on.  I  told  him  again  that  it  hadn't  been  long 
since  I  had  seen  the  agent,  and  he  seemed  to  be  all  right,  and  that  it 
was.  all  a  lie  about  the  Indians  mistreating  him.  The  officer  told  me 
that  there  were  further  complaints  of  the  Indians  burning  forests 
and  grass  and  houses,  and  for  these  different  causes  he  had  to  come  out 
there.  1  told  him  then  that  it  would  be  a  good  idea  to  send  some  men 
up  to  look  at  the  house  that  it  was  claimed  was  burned,  that  it  was  not 
far  off' — Thompson's  house.  I  wanted  them  to  go  there  and  see  the 
house,  because  I  had  seen, it  and  it  was  all  right,  with  the  corrals  and 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  195 

everything  else  not  burnt,  although  there  was  some  burning  around  out 
side  Dear  it.  1  saw  the  house  when  I  was  on  my  way  up  to  Denver, 
and  when  I  got  back,  and  it  was  shortly  after  that  I  met  the  soldiers. 

Q.  How  many  days  before  you  met  the  soldiers  at  Bear  River  ? — A. 
A  very  short  time,  fo.ir  to  six  days  ;  I  don't  remember  exactly. 

(Sawawick  here  remarked  that  it  must  have  been  nearly  ten  days  from 
the  time  they  passed  the  house  on  their  way  home  until  the  time  when 
Jack  met  the  soldiers  at  Bear  River.) 

I  told  the  officer  that  he  had  better  leave  his  company  there,  and  he 
and  some  of  the  officers  go  down  to  the  agency  and  see  the  agent ; 
u  Then,"  said  I,  u  when  we  get  down  there  you  can  see  whether  he  has 
been  badly  treated,  and  whether  he  has  got  his  bruises,  and  all  that, 
that  he  claims  to  have  ;  when  I  saw  him  I  could  Dot  see  that  he  had 
been  misused  any."  The  officer  said  he  would  not  leave  any  of  his 
soldiers,  that  he  would  go  with  the  whole  of  them  to  the  agency.  I 
told  him  that  it  wouldn't  be  very  well  to  go  in  there  with  all  the  sol 
diers,  because  the  Indians  would  get  afraid  at  seeing  so  many  soldiers 
coming  into  the  agency. 

Q.  Did  the  officer  say  what  they  would  do  when  they  got  to  the 
agency  ? — A.  The  officer  told  me  that  there  were  some  very  bad  men 
among  the  Indians,  and  he  had  orders  to  get  them  ;  he  mentioned  three 
Indians,  and  said  there  would  be  some  more  besides  them;  he  mentioned 
"  Glasseye,"  "  Chinaman,"  and  "Johnson."  I  told  the  officer  that  I 
though  that  those  three  that  he  mentioned  were  not  to  blame  for  any 
thing;  that  I  did  not  believe  they  had  done  anything  to  be  arrested 
for.  The  officer  told  me  that  that  would  not  make  any  difference,  that 
he  had  the  orders  to  catch  them,  whether  they  were  guilty  or  not,  and 
if  in  this  case  there,  was  any  trouble  between  them  and  the  troops,  and 
somebody  got  killed  on  the  Indian  side  or  on  the  soldiers'  side  that  was 
all  right,  it  would  not  make  any  difference ;  that  if  there  was  any  diffi 
culty  in  catching  these  Indians,  and  the  Indians  and  the  soldiers  had  to 
kill  one  another,  it  would  have  to  be  done.  I  told  the  officer  that  this 
was  a  very  bad  business  ;  that  it  was  very  bad  for  the  Commissioner  to 
give  such  an  order.  I  .said  it  was  very  bad  ;  that  we  ought  not  to  fight, 
because  we  were  brothers,  and  the  officer  said  that  that  didn't  make  any 
difference;  that  Americans  would  light  even  though  they  were  born  of 
the  same  mother.  I  told  him  again  it  would  be  a  bad  business  for  them 
all  to  go  to  the  agency;  that  he  had  better  leave  the  soldiers  where  they 
were  and  let  the  officers  go  in  with  me  to  the  agenpy  and  settle  the 
matter.  I  kept  repeating  to  the  officer  that  it  would  be  better  for  him 
to  take  five  or  six  men  and  go  with  me  to  the  agency  and  fix  the  matter 
up.  Then  I  told  him  it  was  late  and  I  was  going  back.  The  officer 
said,  "  Where  is  your  camp  1 "  I  said,  u  I  have  no  camp  ;  I  am  stop 
ping  down  here  at  the  store,  and  I  am  going  back  there  to  sleep."  The  offi 
cer  told  me  that  there  were  still  two  moredivisionsof  soldiers  on  the  road 
coming  after  him.  Then  I  went  back  to  the  store  and  slept  there,  and  the 
next  day  I  went  back  to  my  own  house.  The  officer  told  me  before  1  left 
that  he  would  camp  on  Milk  River.  When  I  got  to  my  home  1  told  my 
people  about  the  soldiers  coming,  and  said  that  [  was  going  to  see  the 
officers  again  when  they  came  as  far  as  Milk  River.  My  people  said, 
"  all  right,"  and  a  number  of  them  said  that  they  too  would  go  down 
and  see  the  soldiers.  About  eight  of  us  started  out  to  go  and  see  the 
soldiers,  and  when  we  were  coming  up  one  hill,  looking  across  the  valley 
we  saw  the  soldiers  coming  down  on  the  other  side. 

Q.  Had  the  Indians  their  carbines  with  them  ? — A,  They  had  no  car 
bines.  I  was  going  to  see  the  soldiers,  and  I  understood'it  would  not 


196  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

look  well  for  us  to  have  arms,  and  that  is  the  reason  I  did  not  have  any. 
There  were  eight  coming  with  me  that  were  going  down  to  talk  with 
with  the  soldiers ;  but  some  distance  behind  us  was  another  lot,  but  not 
going  with  us  nor  on  the  same  business.  Then  when  the  soldiers  from 
the  other  hill  saw  us  on  this  hill  they  came  on  fast  to  where  we  were. 
I  told  the  Indians  that  were  with  me  and  those  behind  to  stop  and  to  let 
the  soldiers  come  on. 

Q.  How  far  behind  were  those  others  ;  how  many  of  them  were  there, 
and  did  they  have  ca!  bines  with  them? — A.  Those  behind  did  have 
arms;  how  many  there  were  I  do  not  know,  but  there  were  a  good 
many.  When  I  went  back  to  those  that  were  coming  behind  and  told 
them  to  stop,  that  the  soldiers  were  coming,  one  of  them  stepped  up 
and  said,  "  Well,  we  want  to  see  them,  too."  I  told  them  that  I  did  not 
think  the  soldiers  would  like  the  looks  of  things,  to  see  so  many  coin 
ing  with  arms ;  but  although  I  told  them  to  stop,  they  went  on  to  the 
top  of  the  hill  where  the  others  were.  Then  when  the  soldiers  saw  us 
from  the  other  hill  they  stopped,  too.  I  said  to  our  people,  "  The  sol 
diers  will  be  likely  to  think  that  things  look  bad  over  here77;  and  I 
told  them  to  keep  back  at  the  place  where  I  ordered  them  to  stop — not 
to  go  beyond  that.  Still  some  of  them  passed  on  in  front  of  me.  I 
tried  to  keep  them  back ;  I  told  them  to  stop  on  the  hill  and  look,  but 
not  to  go  any  farther. 

[Chief  Ouray,  who  was  interpreting  for  Jack  here  said  :  "  I  find  I  did 
not  understand  Jack  correctly  about  the  Indians  crowding  up.  When 
Jack  first  came  up  on  that  bill  the  soldiers  stopped  on  the  other  hill  for 
^i  moment  and  he  thought  they  were  going  to  camp  on  the  river,  but 
instead  of  that  they  came  down,  traveling  rapidly,  crossed  the  river, 
and  came  up  on  the  other  side,  and  at  this  time  when  they  were  coming 
up  towards  him  Jack  was  trying  to  keep  the  Indians  back.] 

The  soldiers  when  they  got  down  to  Milk  River  instead  of  stopping 
there  as  I  thought  as  they  would,  crossed  the  river,  and  instead  of 
keeping  the  wagon  road,  which  runs  around  the  hill,  they  took  the 
trail  which  led  up  to  where  the  Indians  were,  and  came  up  very  fast 
until  they  got  to  a  little  creek  there,  and  stopped  on  the  north  side  of 
the  creek.  About  that  signal  that  it  was  said  the  soldiers  made  I  did 
not  see  any,  but  I  understood  that  some  Utes  who  were  off  quite  a  dis 
tance  from  me  on  the  lower  side  saw  some  signal — saw  a  soldier  take 
off  his  hat  and  wave  it,  but  I  did  not  see  that,  nor  did  anybody  near  me. 
A  Ute  that  is  called  uUnco"  saw  the  soldier  waving  his  hat  in  that 
way  and  started  to  go  down  to  where  the  soldiers  were,  but  the  soldiers 
kept  coming  on  and  then  they  began  to  fire.  I  did  not  see  this,  but 
afterwards  I  heard  of  it.  The  Indians  and  the  soldiers  both  formed  in 
line,  and  on  the  lower  side  of  the  soldiers'  line  is  where  I  understand  the 
hat  was  moved  ;  I  did  not  see  it,  but  the  Indians  on  the  lower  side  did. 

Q.  I  understand  you  to  say  that  the  Indian  started  to  go  to  the  sol 
diers  when  he  saw  the  signal,  but  the  soldiers  themselves  kept  going  on, 
and  they  got  into  the  fight  in  that.way  ? — A.  The  soldiers  were  not 
traveling  at  this  time  when  the  hat  was  waved ;  they  had  already  formed 
in  line;  they  were  off  their  horses.  Then  I  heard  shots,  but  I.  still  told 
my  people  to  hold  on,  to  wait.  While  I  was  talking  the  battle  com 
menced,  the  firing  on  both  sides,  and  I  could  not  stop  it;  it  was  im 
possible  to  stop  au3Tthiug.  I  saw  after  they  commenced  tiring  from  both 
sides  I  could  not  do  anything  more  by  talking.  My  talk  did  no  good, 
so  I  shut  up. 

Q.  Go  on  with  your  statement. — A.  I  have  nothing  more  to  say  about 
the  fight.  I  could  not  stop  it. 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  197 

Q.  How  loug  did  the  fight  last? — A.  The  fight  right  there  was  very 
short. 

Q.  Were  all  your  people  in  it,  or,  if  Dot,  how  many  of  them  were 
there  ? — A.  I  did  not  see  the  fight  after  the  fight  right  there.  After  the 
soldiers  went  back  to  their  wagons  and  were  corralled  there  I  did  not 
see  it;  I  had  left.  I  do  not  know  exactly  how  many  Indians  were  in 
the  fight;  they  were  scattered  around  over  the  ground  a  good  deal;  I 
think  forty  to  fifty. 

By  Mr.  POEHLER: 

Q.  How  many  others  besides  the  White  River  Cites  were  there?*— A. 
The  White  Rivers  only  were  there. 

Q.  Did  the  fight  commence  before  the  middle  of  the  day  or  after  it? — 
A.  I  think  it  was  some  time  before  the  middle  of  the  day. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN: 

Q.  You  said  a  while  ago  that  you,  with  a  band  of  eight  Jndians,  went 
for  the  purpose  of  meeting  the  soldiers,  and  that;  another  band  behind 
you  went  for  another  purpose;  what  was  the  purpose  of  that  other 
band? — A.  They  said  they  came  there  to  look,  the  same  as  we  did. 

Q.  Where  did  you  go  from  the  fight? — A.  I  went  up  the  Wild  Potato 
trail  to  my  camp. 

Q.  After  the  fight,  when  did  you  first  hear  from  the  agency? — A.  I 
heard  from  the  agency  that  night,  in  the  night. 
By  Mr.  GUNTER  : 

Q.  How  far  from  the  agency  was  your  camp  ? — A.  I  do  not  know  how 
far  it  was  so  as  to  tell  you  in  miles. 
By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  What  did  you  hear  from  the  agency  first  after  the  fight? — A.  I 
heard  that  they  had  killed  the  agent  and  his  employes. 

Q.  How  did  you  hear  that? — A.  I  heard  it  in  the  excitement;  1  don't 
know  who  told  me  first. 

Q.  When  did  you  first  see  the  Meeker  women  after  the. massacre? — 
A.  Somewhere  about  six  days  afterwards. 

Q.  Who  had  them? — A.  Johnson  had  them  altogether.  He  told  me 
it  was  not  good  to  have  them  scattered  around  in  different  houses,  and 
for  that  reason  he  had  brought  them  together,  and  I  said  I  thought  it 
was  a  good  idea. 

Q.  What  did  you  do  the  next  day  after  you  heard  of  the  killing  of 
the  people  at  the  agency  ?— A.  I  went  to  look  for  some  horses  that  I 
had  lost. 

Q.  Did  you  go  back  to  the  agency  after  that;  and,  if  so,  when?— A.  I 
did  not  go  back  there. 

Q.  W7here  did  you  go  ? — A.  The  first  day  I  looked  for  my  horses  and 
found  them,  and  the  next  day  packed  up  my  camp  and  began  to  move, 
and  it  took  me  until  the  time  I  arrived  at  this  camp  where  I  saw  the 
women,  as  it  was  sixty  or  seventy  miles  from  the  place  where  my  previous 
camp  was.  I  did  not  go  by  the  agency  on  the  way. 

[Ouray  made  a  diagram  showing  that  Jack's  route,  took  him  not  by 
the  agency  but  away  from  it.J 

Q.  Did  the  women  stay  together  after  you  saw  them  in  Johnson's 
charge  until  General  Adams  came  and  got  them  ?— A.  At  the  time  I 
saw  them  they  were  together,  but  afterwards  when  General  Adams 
came  there  they  were  separated  again. 

Q.  Didn't  you  see  them  any  more  from  the  time  you  first  saw  them 
until  General  Adams  came?  If  so,  were  they  together  or  separate? 


198  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

State  also  whether  you  took  charge  of  any  of  these  women. —  A.  The 
different  camps  were  traveling  at  that  time  when  I  first  saw  them.  The 
camp  in  which  the  women  were  was  ahead  of  mine,  but  we  were  all 
traveling.  I  did  not  see  them  afterwards.  I  was  traveling  along  be 
hind  them.  I  camped  on  Grand  Kiver  and  they  went  twenty  miles  be 
yond  and  camped  on  a  little  creek. 

Q.  Who  had  charge  of  the  camp  that  was  ahead  of  you  in  which  the 
women  were? — A.  Douglas. 

Q.  Who  had  command  of  those  Indians  that  were  behind  you  with 
arms  at  the  time  you  wept  to  meet  the  soldiers,  just  before  the" tight  ? — 
A. 'Oolorow  was  in  the  baud  that  was  coming  behind  me,  but  he  did 
not  appear  to  be  in  command,  nor  anybody  else. 

Q.  Where  was  Douglas  at  that  time? — A.  I  don't  know. 

Q.  Did  Johnson  belong  to  Douglas's  band  ? — A.  Yes,  Douglas  and 
Johnson  were  in  the  same  baud;  they  were  traveling  together  at 
that  time. 

Q.  When^ou  had  this  interview  with  the  soldier,  did  you  see  any  fire 
water  at  the  soldier's  camp?  Did  you  see  anybody  who  had  taken  too 
much  of  it,  and  did  you  get  any  of  it? — A.  No,  I  did  not  see  anybody 
that  appeared  to  be  under  the  influence  of  liquor  and  they  did  not  give 
me  any. 

By  Mr.  GUNTEB  : 

Q.  Were  you  sent  to  the  soldier's  camp  that  time  by  any  one;  and,  if 
so,  by  whom  ? — A.  No;  nobody  told  me  to  go.  I  happened  to  be  at  this 
store  buying  provisions — flour,  sugar,  and  coffee — and  in  that  way  I  met 
the  soldiers. 

Q.  Did  you  tell  Major  Thornburgh  there,  or  the  officer  you  spoke  of, 
that  if  he  entered  the  reservation  with  his  troops  there  would  be  a  tight? 
—A.  No;  I  didn't  tell  him  that. 

Q.  Did  you  and  the  Ute  warriors  leave  camp  at  the  same  time  when 
they  went  to  meet  the  soldiers  and  got  into  the  fight  with  them  ? — A. 
We  did  not  start  out  together.  The  "  warriors,"  as  you  call  them,  started 
afterwards.  • 

Q.  Did  you  know  that  they  were  coming  behind  you  before  you  reached 
where  the  soldiers  were? — A.  I  didn't  know  until  I  got  upon  the  hill. 

Q.  When  you  went  to  meet  the  soldiers  the  last  time  with  those  eight 
men  did  you  intend  and  did  those  behind  you  intend  to  make  them  stop 
if  they  did  not  stop  willingly  ? — A.  My  intention  was  to  go  to  Milk  Creek, 
meet  the  soldiers  in  their  camp,  as  I  understood  they  were  going  to  camp 
there,  and  go  down  to  the  agency  with  the  officers,  and  I  had  no  inten 
tion  of  trying  to  make  them  stop  if  they  did  not  stop  themselves. 

Q.  Why  did  you  carry  your  arms,  then? — A.  It  is  the  custom  for  In 
dians  always  to  take  their  arms  with  them,  no  matter  what  they  are 
going  for. 

By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Q.  Go  on  in  your  own  way  and  tell  us  all  about  the  trouble  between 
the  Utes  and  Agent  Meeker. — A.  While  Meeker  was  agent  there  I 
never  received  any  provisions  or  rations  at  all.  Meeker  always  said  that 
he  never  would  give  my  people  any  provisions,  but  I  never  had  any 
trouble  with  him  on  that  account. 

Q.  Did  Douglas  have  any  trouble  with  him  ? — A.  I  did  not  see  any 
trouble  between  Douglas  and  Meeker,  but  our  camps  were  always  sepa 
rate,  and  probably  I  would  not  have  seen  it  if  it  occurred. 

Q.  Did  you  see  anythiugof  the  trouble  between  Johnson  and  Meeker? 
— A.  I  was  in  my  camp  at  one  time  and  one  of  the  employes  came  up 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  199 

for  me  to  come  to  the  agency,  and  told  me  that  Meeker  and  Johnson  had 
had  some  trouble.  From  the  talk  of  the  employe  I  got  the  idea  that 
Johnson  had  handled  Meeker  roughly  and  that  I  would  probably  see 
some  marks  on  him,  but  when  I  got  there  Meeker  was  apparently  all 
riffht. 


•&• 


By  Mr.  POEHLER  : 

Q.  What  caused  the  outbreak  between  Johnson  and  Meeker? — A 
Meeker  told  me,  when  I  saw  him  that  time,  that  Johnson  had  been 
mistreating  him  I  told  Meeker  that  it  was  nothing,  that  it  was  a  small 
matter,  not  to  get  mad  about  that.  I  repeated  that  it  was  no  use  to 
make  any  fuss  about  it,  that  it  was  a  small  matter  and  he  had  better 
let  it  drop.  Meeker  said  it  didn't  make  any  difference;  that  he  would 
mind  it  and  complain  about  it.  I  still  told  him  that  it  would  be  a  very 
bad  business  to  make  so  much  fuss  about  nothing.  Meeker  said  he 
didn't  like  to  have  a  young  man  take  hold  of  him,  that  he  was  an  old 
man  and  had  no  strength  to  retaliate,  and  he  didn't  want  to  have  a 
young  man  take  hold  of  him  in  that  way;  he  said  that  he  was  an  old 
man  and  Johnson  had  mistreated  him  and  he  would  not  say  any  more 
to  him ;  that  he  was  going  to  ask  the  Commissioner  for  soldiers  arid  that 
he  would  drive  the  Utes  from  their  lauds.  Then  I  told  him  it  would  be 
very  bad  to  do  that.  Meeker  said  that  anyhow  the  land  did  not  belong 
to  the  Utes.  I  answered  that  the  land  did  belong  to  the  Utes,  and  that  that 
was  the  reason  why  the  government  had  the  agencies  there,  because  it 
was  the  Utes'  laud,  and  I  told  him  again  that  the  trouble  between  aim 
and  Johnson  was  a  very  small  matter  and  he  had  better  let  it  drop  and 
not  make  so  much  fuss  about  it.  Meeker  said,  "Well,  if  the  govern 
ment  has  made  these  houses  here  for  you,  you  stay  here  and  talk";  and 
Meeker  went  out.  I  went  out  'too.  I  then  went  to  Johnson's  house 
and  asked  him  what  he  had  done.  Johnson  said  that  the  difficulty  he 
had  with  Meeker  was  that  as  he  left  his  house  and  was  going  out 
Meeker  was  standing  in  front  of  his  house  and  called  Johuson  over  to 
him.  Johnson  went  over  and  Meeker  said,  uWrhy  don't  you  take  away 
your  animals  from  here;  drive  them  away  some  distance  ;  they  are  eat 
ing  up  all  the  grass  there  is  around  here  tor  the  milch  cows."  I  told 
Johnson  that  he  had  better  have  no  difficulty  with  him,  that  it  would 
make  talk  aud  trouble.  Johnson  said  it  was  nothing,  of  no  account. 
I  then  went  back  to  my  camp.  That  is  all  I  know  about  that. 

Q.  Tell  us  now  whatever  you  know  about  the  difficulty  between  the 
Indians  and  Agent  Meeker  in  relation  to  plowing. — A.  Meeker  sent  for 
rne  again  some  time  after  this  last  occasion  that  I  have  told  about. 
When  I  got  down  to  the  agency  I  went  into  the  office  and  some  other 
Indians  that  were  there  went  in  with  me,  aud  I  says,  "  Well,  what 
have  you  been  doing  now  that  Meeker  sends  for  me  again  P  They  did 
not  answer,  but  looked  from  one  to  the  other  and  didn't  say  anything. 
Meeker  told  me  that  he  had  called  me  because  he  wanted  all  those 
Indians  that  were  there  to  move,  with  their  houses  and  corrals  and 
everything,  below.  I  told  the  Indians  to  move  as  Meeker  had  told  them 
to  do.  The  Indians  said,.  "All  right,"  but  they  did  not  seem  to  think  it 
was  all  right ;  they  seemed  to  say  it  ironically.  Some  time  later  Meeker 
sent  for  me  again.  When  I  got  to  the  agency  Meeker  told  me  that  he 
had  sent  for  me  because  one  of  the  Indians  had  shot  at  one  of  the 
employes  who  was  at  work.  Meeker  said  that  this  Indian  (who  was  a 
brother  of  Johnson)  shot  at  the  employe.  The  Ute  replied  that  it  was 
not  true,  because  they  had  been  shooting  in  another  direction.  The 
employe  said  that  the  balls  were  passing  over  his  head,  and  the 


200  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

Ute  bad  said  they  were  passing  over  bis  bead,  but  very  high 
over  it,  as  be  was  shooting  at  some  rocks  on  a  high  bill  beyond 
the  employe.  That  is  all  that  was  said  about  it.  Then  I  beard  from 
the  man  wbo  bad  the  contract  to  deliver  them  that  the  wagons 
for  me  and  Douglas  and  Sawawick  were  coming  to  the  agency. 
Meeker  sent  for  me  again,  and  I  went  again  to  the  agency.  Meeker 
said,  "Here  are  the  wagons  foe  the  Utes,  but  I  do  not  think  they  are 
good  ones;  I  do  not  like  the  color;  they  are  all  red."  And  he  told  me 
I  had  better  take  an  old  wagon  that  was  there  and  leave  these.  These 
wagons,  as  I  understood,  were  supplied  by  the  government.  Meeker 
told  me  also  that  the  harnesses  were  not  good ;  that  the  Ute  horses  were 
small  and  the  harnesses  were  very  large,  and  that  that  little  old  wagon 
was  better  for  me,  because  the  harness  that  went  with  it  was  smaller,, 
and  that  at  some  other  time,  perhaps,  the  Indians  would  get  some 
smaller  wagons  than  those  new  ones.  Then  Sawawick  and  I  took  the 
small  old  wagon  to  our  camps  to  haul  wood  on  it.  When  we  were 
taking  it  be  told  us  that  we  could  take  it  for  one  month,  and  then  we 
must  bring  it  back,  and  when  the  month  was  up  we  took  it  back.  That 
is  all  I  know  about  the  difficulty.  I  know  nothing  about  the  massacre. 
I  was  not  near  there. 


WASHINGTON,  March  20,  1880. 

SAWAWICK,  a  chief  of  the  Utes,  speaking  through  two  interpreters 
(Ouray  and  another), 'testified  as  follows: 

By  tbe  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  Were  you  at  the  fight  between  the  Utes  and  the  soldiers ? — 
Answer.  1  was  not. 

Q.  Did  you  see  the  soldiers  before  the  fight? — A.  Yes;  I  saw  them 
at  Bear  Creek,  at  the  time  Jack  had  the  talk  with  them  tbat  be  has 
told  you  about.  I  was  with  him  at  that  time. 

Q.  State  what  passed  between  you  and  Jack  and  the  soldiers  on  that 
occasion. — A.  As  I  do  not  understand  any  English  at  all,  I  do  not 
know  anything  about  what  was  said  at  that  time, 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  tbe  fight1? — A.  I  did  not  see  it,  and 
I  know  notbing  about  it. 

Q.  Do  you  know  anything  about  the  difficulty  between  Meeker  and 
the  Indians  at  the  agency  before  the  massacre! — A.  I  never  had  any 
difficulty  with  Meeker.  I  could  not  talk  with  Meeker  nor  Meeker  with 
me,  so  we  had  no  difficulties. 

Q.  Tell  us  what  your  people  said  about  Meeker. — A.  Sometimes  the 
Indians  would  talk  about  Meeker  and  against  him,  but  I  never  paid 
any  attention  to  them. 

Q.  What  did  the  Indians  complain  of  in  regard  to  Meeker  ? — A.  From 
the  talk  I  beard,  the  principal  difficulty  seemed  to  be  about  rations.  I 
heard  them  say  that  Meeker  would  not  give  rations  to  those  Indians 
that  may  have  come  there  visiting  from  other  agencies,  and  also  he  re 
fused  to  give  them  to  some  of  tbe  White  Kiver  Utes.  I  beard  them 
say  tbat  Meeker  claimed  that  those  blankets  and  shirts  and  clothing, 
&c.,  given  them,  were  given  by  the  government  to  pay  them  for  their 
land. 

Q.  Where  were  you  at  the  time  the  fight  occurred  ? — A.  About  the 
time  that  the  soldiers  were  fighting  I  was  at  the  agency. 

Q.  Were  you  there  when  Meeker  was  killed  ? — A.  No. 

Q.  Where  bad  you  gone  at  that  time?  Howr  came  you  to  leave? — A. 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  201 

I  was  there  at  the  agency  the  same  day  that  Meeker  was  killed,  but  I 
had  left  the  agency  and  gone  home  before  he  was  killed,  or  before  there 
was  any  trouble. 

Q.  How  far  was  your  house  from  the  agency  ? — A.  It  is  at  the  old 
agency. 

Q.  What  time  in  the  day  did  the  killing  of  Meeker  happen? — A.  I 
ate  dinner  that  day  at  Meeker's  house  and  left  immediately  after  din 
ner,  so  the  killing  was  done  after  that. 

Q.  What  Indians  did  you  leave  there  ?— A.  Douglas  was  there  when 
I  left.  There  were  other  Utes  there,  but  Douglas  is  the  only  one  that  I 
can  now  remember. 

Q.  Did  Meeker  seem  to  be  uneasy  or  troubled  when  you  left  the 
agency  that  day  ? — A.  No ;  it  did  not  seem  to  me  that  he  was  troubled ; 
at  least,  he  did  not  say  anything  about  it. 

Q.  What  was  Douglas  doing? — A.  I  only  saw  him  there;  I  had  no 
conversation  at  all  with  him  and  I  do  not  know  what  he  was  doing. 

Q.  Did  the  other  Utes  that  you  saw  there  belong  to  Douglas's  band  ? 
— A.  It  seemed  to  me  that  they  were  Douglas's  people  that  I  saw  there. 

Q.  Did  you  see  Johnson  there,  or  leave  him  there  ? — A.  I  did  not  see 
him  there. 

Q.  Did  you  hear  of  any  fighting  between  the  Utes  and  the  soldiers 
while  you  were  there  ? — A.  No. 

Q.  Did  you  see  the  Meeker  women  that  day  ? — A.  Yes,  I  saw  them. 

Q.  When  and  where  did  you  see  them  next'after  that  ? — A.  I  saw  the 
old  lady  the  next  time  when  she  was  crossing  the  Rio  Grande.  I  was 
not  talking  with  her,  but  I  saw  her  pass  along  there. 

Q.  Was  she  a  prisoner  when  you  saw  her  there  f — A*.  I  believe  she 
could  not  have  been  anything  else  but  a  prisoner  at  that  time. 

Q.  Who  had  charge  of  her? — A,  She  was  traveling  on  a  horse  of 
Douglas's •;  whether  Douglas  had  her  or  not  I  do  not  know. 

Q.  What  Indians  were  with  her  or  near  her? — A.  It  was  a  traveling 
camp,  and  there  was  a  number  of  people  together. 

Q.  Did  you  see  the  other  Meeker  woman  ? — A.  I  did  not, 

Q.  How  long  did  you  travel  in  company  with  old  Mrs.  Meeker  at  that 
time  ? — A.  I  was  not  traveling  with  them  at  all.  My  camp  was  behind  j 
I  just  happened  to  overtake  them  as  they  were  crossing  the  river. 

Q.  Do  you  know  whose  tent  the  women  staid  in  at  night  ? — A.  I  do 
not. 

Q.  Were  you  present  the  day  General  Adams  came  to  your  camp  ? — 
A.  I  did  not  see  the  women  when  Adams  went  there.  Adams  came  to 
the  camp  where  the  women  were,  which  was  ahead  of  me,  and  sent  the 
women  back  to  Ouray's  place,  and  then  came  on  to  my  camp  on  his  way 
to  White  River. 

The  CHAIRMAN  [to  OurayJ.  Is  Sawawick  one  of  the  chiefs  of  the 
Utes? 

OURAY.  Yes.  He  had  land  that  he  used  to  cultivate  at  the  old 
agency. 

The  CHAIRMAN.   Does  he  belong  to  Jack's  or  Douglas's  band  ? 

OURAY.  Originally  both  Jack  and  Sawawick  camped  at  the  old 
agency  and  had  ground  there  which  they  cultivated. 

Q.  [To  the  witness.]  Were  you  at  the  camp  of  the  soldiers  with  Jack 
at  Bear  River? — A.  Yes. 

Q.  Did  you  live  there  with  Jack  ;  and,  if  so,  where  did  you  both  go 
from  there  ? — A.  Yes,  we  came  back  together.  When  we  left  the  camp 
we  came  back  to  Baker's  store. 


202  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

Q.  Did  you  afterwards  go  back  with  Jack  to  bis  camp  ? — A.  We  did 
go  back  to  our  camp. 

Q.  When  you  got  back  did  you  hold  a  council  ot  war? — A..  No. 

Q.  What  did  Jack  say  to  the  Indians  when  you  got  back  ? — A.  Jack 
went  to  his  house  and  I  to  mine,  and  what  Jack  may  have  said  to  the 
other  Indians  I  do  not  know. 

Q.  Did  Jack  tell  you  on  your  way  back  to  camp  what  he  intended  to 
do  ? — A.  No,  he  did  not  tell  me  that  he  intended  to  do  anything. 

Q.  Did  the  Indians  think  that  the  soldiers  ought  to  come  over  the 
reservation  line? — A.  1  don't  know  what  they  may  have  thought  about 
it. 

Q.  Did  you  see  any  fire  water  at  the  soldiers'  camp  ? — A.  No. 

Q.  Were  any  of  the  soldiers  drunk  or  under  the  influence  of  liquor  ? 
— A.  I  did  not  notice  that  any  of  them  had  been  drinking. 


WASHINGTON,  March  20,  1880. 

JACK  recalled  and  further  examined,  (Ouray  interpreting.) 
By  the  CHAIRMAN  : 

Question.  How  many  Indians  were  killed  in  the  fight  with  the  sol 
diers? — Answer  (after  a  long  talk  between  Jack  and  Ouray).  There  was 
a  lot  of  them,  and  were  lost  at  the  time  of  the  fight,  and  that  we  thought 
were  killed,  and  we  counted  them  among  the  dead,  but  some  of  them 
came  back.  There  are  about  nineteen  that  we  know  are  dead  and 
there  are  seven  yet  lacking,  and  we  don't  know  what  has  become  of 
them. 

Q.  Sow  many  whites  were  killed! — A.  I  don't  know.  I  did  not  see, 
and  I  do  not  know  that  I  have  heard. 

Q.  When  you  went  back  from  Bear  Creek,  after  seeing  the  soldiers 
there,  did  you  call  a  council  of  the  tribe? — A.  Yes;  I  called  them  to 
gether  and  told  them  what  I  had  said  to  the  officer  and  what  the  officer 
had  said  to  me;  that  I  wanted  to  go  and  meet  the  officers  again. 

Q.  What  objection  had  the  Indians  to  the  soldiers  going  to  the 
agency  ? — A.  I  told  you  before  why  I  did  not  want  them  to  go  in  there  ; 
that  there  were  no  Indians  in  there  to  catch ;  that  there  were  no  In 
dians  that  had  done  anythir.g  to  be  arrested  for,  but  that  I  wanted  a 
few  of  the  officers  to  go  into  the  agency  and  talk  with  the  agent  and 
fix  it  up. 

Q.  Do  you  wish  to  leave  Colorado  and  go  to  the  Uintah  Eeservation  ? 
— A.  If  my  people  want  to  go  I  am  satisfied  to  go  with  them. 

Q.  Do  you  want  an  agent  to  go  with  them  ?  Do  you  wish  to  have 
an  agent  or  to  live  without  an  agent  ? — A.  The  reservation  is  a  very 
small  piece  of  ground  to  have  many  agencies  on,  and  there  is  one  there 
already. 

Q.  Don't  you  think  that  your  people  could  get  along  without  an 
agent  ? — A.  There  seems  to  be  an  idea  among  the  whites  that  all  the 
Indians  had  a  hand  in  the  killing  of  Meeker.  'That  is  not  true.  It  was 
done  by  a  few.  The  others  had  nothing  to  do  with  it,  and  they  are 
willing  to  go  on  as  they  have  been  going. 

Q.  Don't  you  think  that  your  people  could  get  along  without  an 
agent? — A.  I  think  it  is  a  good  idea  to  have  an  agent. 

Q.  Did  you  sign  this  contract  with  the  Secretary  of  the  Interior  of 
your  own  accord? — A.  I  did  sign  it  voluntarily,  because  I  was  satisfied 
with  it. 


UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK.  203 

The  CHAIRMAN  (to  Ouray).  Is  there  any  other  Indian  now  in  Wash 
ington  who  ought  to  be  examined  or  who  could  give  any  additional  in 
formation  ? 

OURAY.  No.  My  Indians  know  nothing  about  the  business,  and 
there  are  no  others" here  that  know  anything  about  it. 

The  GIIAIRMAN.  Are  Jack  and  Sawawick  the  only  two  White  River 
Ut.es  here  J? 

OURAY.  There  are  two  other  White  River  Utes  here. 

The  CHAIRMAN.  Could  those  two  White  Rivers  tell  us  anything  ad 
ditional  on  this  subject  that  we  are  now  investigating  f 

OURAY  (after  consulting  with  Jack).  There  is  one  that  might  know 
something  about  it,  Henry  Jim.  He  sometimes  acted  as  interpreter  for 
Meeker. 

Adjourned. 


WASHINGTON,  D.  C.,  March  22,  1880. 

HENRY  JAMES,  a  White  River  Ute  (being  examined  by  Mr.  Poehler), 
testified  through  an  interpreter,  that  he  was  employed  by  the  gov 
ernment  at  the  White  River  Agency  for  about  one  year.  He  used 
to  help  in  issuing  rations  and  also  in  interpreting.  He  does  not  talk 
English  much,  but  just  enough  to  help  in  issuing  rations,  One  trouble 
which  they  used  to  have  was  that  Mr.  Meeker  would  not  give  rations  to 
visiting  Indians — Indians  from  other  agencies.  He  and  three  others 
worked  at  one  time  in  building  a  fence  for  the  agent  and  never  got 
paid  for  their  work.  The  Indians  used  to  object  to  Mr.  Meeker  plowing 
the  land,  but  Mr.  Meeker  said  it  made  no  difference  to  them,  as  the  laud 
did  not  belong  to  them.  This  was  a  nice  piece  of  pasture  laud  where 
the  milch  cows  used  to  graze.  He  did  not  see  any  difficulty  between 
Johnson  and  Meeker.  He  only  heard  there  had  been  such  a  difficulty, 
but  he  did  not  know  what  it  was  about.  Those  Indians  who  lived  near 
Mr.  Meeker  would  receive  rations,  but  Jack's  people  and  those  Indians 
who  lived  some  distance  off  would  not  receive  rations.  He  was  not 
present  at  the  time  of  the  massacre.  He  was  then  at  his  own  house  at 
Jack's  place,  about  15  or  16  miles  off.  He  first  saw  the  soldiers  before 
the  fight.  It  was  at  Williams  Park.  It  was  in  the  night-time,  two  days 
before  the  fight.  There  were  four  Utes  and  one  American  with  him  at 
the  time.  This  American,  he  thinks,  was  employed  at  the  agency,  but  he 
is  not  sure,  as  he  had  only  seen  him  a  few  days  before  at  the  agency. 
He  does  not  know  whether  the  American  was  killed  or  not.  The  Ameri 
can  staid  with  the  soldiers.  He  went  to  the  soldiers'  camp;  there  were 
three  Utes,  one  American,  and  himself  in  the  party  that  left  the  agency 
to  go  to  see  the  soldiers'  camp.  On  the  road  while  going  there  they  saw 
three  more  Utes  who  fell  iu  and  went  with  them.  The  Indians  who 
went  with  him  were  Tonwah,  Inuayuirque,  Pourtave,  but  he  does  not 
know  the  name  of  the  American.  (The  name  of  one  of  the  Utes  he 
met  on  the  road  was  Freiscatte;  the  other  two  the  interpreter  did  not 
repeat.)  The  American  had  a  letter  for  the  soldiers,  which  he  had 
brought  from  Mr.  Meeker.  (The  interpreter  stated  that  the  witness  con 
tinued  to  describe  the  manner  in  which  the  letter  was  handed  to  the 
soldier  and  how  he  put  it  on  one  side.) 

Q.  Did  the  Utes  go  to  the  soldiers  ?— A.  He  went  with  the  American 
that  had  the  letter. 

Q.  Were  you  sent  by  Meeker  to  go  with  him?— A.  He  was. 

Q.  How  long  did  he  stay  with  the  soldiers? — A.  A  little  while. 


204  UTE    INDIAN    OUTBREAK. 

Q.  Where  did  he  go  after  that J? — A.  He  came  back  with  a  letter. 
He  states  that  the  officer  told  him  that  the  letter  said  he  was  to  come 
on  with  five  more  men,  but  that  the  officer  said  he  could  not  do  that  as 
his  orders  were  to  go  on  with  all. 

Mr.  AINSLEE.  Did  he  state  that  in  English  or  in  Ute  ? 

The  INTERPRETER.  He  seemed  to  understand  that  in  English. 

Q.  Who  told  him  that — the  officer  in  command  of  the  party  ! — A.  He 
does  not  know. 

Q.  Where  did  he  take  this  letter  to  ! — A.  To  the  agency. 

Mr.  AINSLEE.  I  do  not  understand  with  whom  he  had  this  talk  ? 

The  INTERPRETER.  He  says  that  the  officer  told  him  that.  They  were 
all  standing  there  and  all  heard  it. 

Q.  Where  did  you  first  see  the  women,  Mrs.  Meeker,  Miss  Meeker, 
and  Mrs.  Price,  after  the  massacre  ? — A.  He  saw  Mrs.  Price  in  the  camp 
where  he  was  living  about  two  days  after  the  close  of  it.  He  saw  her 
on  the  same  day  that  Meeker  was  killed — that  the  killing  was  done.  She 
was  in  charge  of  a  Ute  named  Aboudepuy.  She  probably  passed  three 
nights  in  his,  Aboudepuy's  house  and  then  went  to  his  (witness's.)  house. 
Mrs.  and  Miss  Meeker  were  at  some  other  camp. 

Q.  Whose  camp? — A.  Douglass's. 

Q.  Did  Mrs.  Price  stay  with  you  until  she  was  sent  away  ? — A.  She 
staid  in  his  Louse  only  one  night. 

OURAY  (the  chief)  recalled. 

By  Mr.  AINSLEE  : 

Q.  Were  or  were  you  not  told  by  persons  in  Colorado  prior  to  the  out 
break  that  the  governor  said  he  would  send  soldiers  in  and  make  trouble 
with  the  Utes,  and  make  them  give  up  their  lands? — A.  Nobody  ever 
told  him  in  that  way. 

Q.  State  what  anybody  did  tell  you  in  your  own  way,  about  sending 
the  soldiers  in  or  making  trouble  or  getting  them  off  their  land. — A. 
What  he  heard  was  what  he  saw  in  the  paper. 

Q.  State  what  you  saw  in   the  papers,  or  learned. — A.  He  learned 
from  the  paper  that  they  were  working  hard  to  get  the  Utes  out  of  Colo 
rado  into  Indian  Territory. 

Q.  Did  he  learn  they  were  going  to  make  trouble  with  them  in  order 
to  get  them  out  of  Colorado  ! — A.  That  is  the  way  it  looked  to  him. 

Q.  Did  not  the  Utes  believe  that  this  trouble  was  brought  on  in  or 
der  to  get  them  off  their  land  !— A.  They  did  seem  to  think  that  way. 


INDEX. 


Page. 

Testimony  -of  Charles  Adams,  special  agent  Post-Office  Department . , 1 

William  M.  Leeds,  ex-chief  clerk  of  the  Indian  Office 16 

E.  A.  Hay t,  Commissioner  of  Indian  Affairs 32, 54 

Clinton  B.  Fisk,  member  Board  of  Indian  Commissioners 43 

S.  A.  Cherry,  lieutenant  Fifth  United  States  Cavalry 62 

Josephine  Meeker 71 

Frederick  W.  Pitkin,  governor  of  Colorado 94, 109, 126 

James  B.  Thompson,  ex-Indian  agent 134 

William  N.  Byers,  postmaster  at  Denver 147 

Henry  C.  Olney,  newspaper  publisher 164 

J.  S.  Payne,  captain  Fifth  United  States  Cavalry 170 

Ouray,  chief  of  the  Utes 182,187,204 

Chipita,  wife  of  Ouray 191 

Jack,  aUtechief 191,194,202 

Sa-wa-wick,  a  Ute  chief 200 

Henry  James,  a  White  River  Ute 202 


